4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 73

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  • #181
IMO in this case you cited the judge ruled on the change of venue motion prior to the trial starting/VD. The ruling was that there was not enough evidence to support the motion and more evidence may come up in VD, in which case the motion could be renewed.

I am not sure what jurisdiction you practice in or how many criminal cases you have tried, but I cannot imagine any judge in any high profile criminal case waiting to rule on a pre-trial change of venue motion until the trial starts...IMO

It should be noted too that the case you cited had some pre-trial publicity, locally, but it was also a nearly 40 year old cold case. Even after the discovery of the body and arrest, there has not been national news media covering that case everyday like in this case.

Also Weld County Colorado has more than 250K people. Latah County Idaho has under 40K people. The ability to get a panel in for VD is much more difficult in this case and thus any motion to change venue in this case will be litigated prior to the start of the trial...IMO
Your points are well made, and I expect AT will assert them in a motion to change venue. But my point is that these motions fly in the face of a very strong local judicial inclination to keep the case, and the trial judge's discretionary decision to do so is very difficult to overturn.

In order to move the case before trial, the court must find the entire jury pool was so tainted by massive, pervasive, and prejudicial publicity that a legal presumption is created the defendant will be denied a fair trial. These circumstances are very rare, as courts acknowledge, and asking a local judge to make such a finding about her own community is a big ask.

*Especially after the judge has done everything she can to prevent prejudicial publicity by issuing a gag order.*

Although actual juror prejudice would also be grounds to change venue, that can only be established at the completion of voir dire. My observation is that this is the most common response to an early motion to change venue. To me, the fact that BK stipulated to the gag order is a form of acknowledgment that a change of venue is unlikely: he's taking all the protection he can get.

Since you aren't satisfied with the Colorado trial court case, here's an Idaho Supreme Court case that recites most of the same precedents and applies the same rationale, upholding a Kootenai County (pop. approx 100,000 at the time) judge's decision to deny the requested change to a defendant accused of the brutal and sensational murder of a Coeur d'Alene police officer.

Here's the pertinent portion of State v Yager (2004):

"2. Motion for Change of Venue

A motion to change venue is addressed to the discretion of the trial court (citations omitted). The validity of a court’s decision to try a case in a particular venue is tested by whether, in the totality of existing circumstances, juror exposure to pretrial publicity resulted in a trial that was not fundamentally fair. Publicity by itself does not require a change of venue, (citations omitted), and error cannot be predicated on the mere existence of pretrial publicity concerning a criminal case. Where it appears that the defendant actually received a fair trial and that there was no difficulty experienced in selecting a jury, the denial of defendant’s motion for change of venue is not a ground for reversal (citations omitted).

In determining whether a criminal defendant actually received a fair trial, the Court will consider, among other factors, affidavits indicating prejudice or absence of prejudice in the community where he or she is tried, the testimony of jurors at voir dire as to whether they formed an opinion of the defendant’s guilt or innocence based upon adverse publicity, whether the defendant challenged for cause any of the jurors finally selected, the nature and content of pre-trial publicity and the amount of time elapsed from the time of the publicity to the trial (citation omitted).

At the voir dire, which was conducted by the trial judge with each potential juror individually, thirty out of seventy-six jurors admitted that they had formed the opinion that Yager was guilty, that the police had arrested the right person or that the prosecution indicated that Yager had some connection to the case. Fifteen of the thirty jurors were excused for cause. Defense counsel’s challenges to the remaining fifteen were overruled, and they were retained as potential jurors. All peremptory challenges were exercised, after which the defense renewed its motion, arguing that the panel still contained persons who were not impartial because of the impact of pre-trial publicity.

The district court found that the media coverage was 'by and large... both factual and non-inflammatory' and not such as to adversely affect juror impartiality. The fifteen jurors who were not excused all stated to the trial judge that they could set aside any opinions they had formed from news accounts, listen to the evidence presented in the courtroom, and decide the case solely on that evidence.

Under the settled rule, it must be shown that the prejudice., against a defendant is of such magnitude as to prevent him from receiving a fair and impartial trial; and where the evidence before the court is conflicting, the decision will not be reversed on appeal(citation omitted). There was overwhelming evidence against Yager, and he has not shown that the setting of the trial was inherently prejudicial or that actual prejudice can be inferred from the jury-selection process of which he complains (citation omitted). We conclude that the district court did not abuse its discretion in denying Yager’s requested change of venue.

3. Challenge to two jurors

Continuing to focus on the jury, Yager expressed dissatisfaction with two jurors, who were challenged for cause but retained by the district court. He claims Juror Wilson’s and Juror Chandler’s admitted preconceived opinions regarding Yager’s guilt should have disqualified the jurors for bias despite their assurances that they would set aside their opinions and be fair and impartial.

The decision whether a juror can render a fair and impartial verdict is directed to the sound discretion of the trial court and will not be reversed absent an abuse of discretion. It is not incumbent upon the trial judge to find jurors who are totally ignorant of the facts and issues involved in this case (citations omitted). The test has been set forth as follows:

'To hold that the mere existence of any preconceived notion as to the guilt or innocence of an accused, without more, is sufficient to rebut the presumption of a prospective juror’s impartiality would be to establish an impossible standard. It is sufficient if the juror can lay aside his impression or opinion and render a verdict based on the evidence presented in court. (citation omitted)'

Juror Chandler never indicated that he had formed an opinion as to Yager’s guilt or innocence. He did state that at the time of the arrest, he believed that the person they arrested was probably guilty of murdering Trooper Huff and that nothing he had seen in the media or discussed with others had changed that belief. He stated unequivocally to the court that his opinion would not affect his deliberations as a juror. Juror Wilson initially told the trial judge that she 'figured it cut and dry' from the television reports she had seen; but on further questioning by the court, she denied that she had formed an opinion. Juroy Wilson explained not that she was convinced the person who was arrested was the person who had murdered Trooper Huff, but that 'it was pretty much all right there in one spot where it all happened and they didn’t have to chase anybody or there wasn’t a question.' She claimed that she had not heard anything recently about the case and that she was prepared to set aside all she had learned and to listen to the evidence presented in count alone to reach a verdict.

Although not always dispositive, the trial judge is entitled to rely on assurances from venire persons concerning partiality or bias. (citations omitted) As the appellate court has previously stated:

'Having formed or expressed an unqualified opinion or belief that the defendant is guilty, or not guilty, of the offense charged indicates an implied bias and is thereby a basis for challenging a juror for cause (statutes and citations omitted).'

The jurors’ testimony above is not indicative of an opinion that would raise a presumption of partiality. We therefore hold that the decision not to excuse Jurors Wilson and Chandler was within the discretion of the trial court."
 
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  • #182
I have been away from this case for a while. Today, I accidentally came across Tom Jones' live performance at the Diamond Jubilee in London. And for the first time in my life, I listened to the words of that song, Delilah. It was written in 1967. Before all modern faddish movements. I wonder if BK had it on Spotify and if it was all that it took for the motive. Far-fetched, but who knows. A girl behind a window, a knife.
 
  • #183
Freedom of the Press : (is not yelling FIRE in a movie theatre )

" Re-read the gag order. Judge Megan Marshall's gag order continues the gag through the whole trial.
'shall remain in full force and effect throughout the entirety of of this case...'

Understand pre-trial gag orders, but limiting outflow of facts during trial seems to create more wild speculation.
Who will that protect? Beginning to understand why the press is objecting.
jmo moo

The facts of the trial matter—i.e. whether there will be publicity and whether that publicity would actually prejudice the trial?"

imo moo
The order restricts only statements made outside the court proceedings. So, the press can cover what is said in hearings and at trial (the judge can't close these to the public) and also in written documents submitted to the court. They just can't ask the usual breathless questions about what do you think the other side's gonna do next, how do you feel about the judge's latest controversial ruling, tell us what you were thinking as the witness gave that devastating testimony, isn't that attorney's hairdo a distraction - and expect an answer from the parties, the attorneys, and their agents - even during the trial. Dignity, decorum, focus and responsibility go out the window when you let the circus into the courtroom. MOO.
 
  • #184
Good thoughts! Hadn't thought of inmates - they could be the source. But AT will likely remind BK to be more careful who he speaks to and what he says to his parents, because if anything more substantive gets out it will reflect on her and may get him sanctioned. He is a party, and parties are bound by the order.
Just revisiting the issue of BK's personal, expressed thoughts out there in potential violation of the gag order. When he files his motion for change of venue, and the Judge, concerned about a violation of her gag order, asks how his personal thoughts somehow were published by MSM ---how does he respond?
 
  • #185
"Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger's trial could be moved 300 MILES away from Moscow, over fears local jurors remain too appalled by massacre to try him fairly."

Changes of venue are extremely expensive. What justice requires is twelve fair-minded people. Moscow has a population of 25,435 (source: Wikipedia). Latah County has a population of 39,517 (source: Wikipedia). The jury pool is not large. But there might be twelve fair-minded people in the county, nevertheless. Honestly, I think that many of us here could sit on the jury, put everything we've read aside, and look only at the evidence. OTOH, I think DNA, cell phone data, and shoeprint are going to be *very* convincing. And everyone from Idaho to Timbuktu has heard of this case. We'll see what happens. JMHO.
 
  • #186
Just revisiting the issue of BK's personal, expressed thoughts out there in potential violation of the gag order. When he files his motion for change of venue, and the Judge, concerned about a violation of her gag order, asks how his personal thoughts somehow were published by MSM ---how does he respond?
The gag order is to not talk to the media, it is not to keep people from talking to friends and family which is everyone's right to do.

He himself can't blab to the press about his case but he is not responsible for what other people say to the press.
 
  • #187
Changes of venue are extremely expensive. What justice requires is twelve fair-minded people. Moscow has a population of 25,435 (source: Wikipedia). Latah County has a population of 39,517 (source: Wikipedia). The jury pool is not large. But there might be twelve fair-minded people in the county, nevertheless. Honestly, I think that many of us here could sit on the jury, put everything we've read aside, and look only at the evidence. OTOH, I think DNA, cell phone data, and shoeprint are going to be *very* convincing. And everyone from Idaho to Timbuktu has heard of this case. We'll see what happens. JMHO.

I disagree that we could sit on the jury. The amount of sleuthing we've done/read would immediately disqualify us (and I think for good reason). The legal experts here can clarify if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the jury is supposed to hear only what is allowed in court and if you have outside knowledge of a case, that would disqualify you.

I also would have major doubts that they can find an impartial jury in Moscow or even Latah County when the university likely makes up a large percentage of the 25,000 people living there (professors, administrative staff, and students). I think it would be very difficult to be a UI employee or student and/or have kids who are students and be able to remain objective or to not have heard things through the grapevine.

As for a change of venue being expensive, I get that. But I think that has to be balanced against the fact that this a huge case, possibly one of the biggest trials ID has seen in a long time. It's going to be expensive, like all trials are, but it's going to be even worse with this one because it's getting international attention. IMO, a change of venue has to be very strongly considered.

All the above is MOO.
 
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  • #188
I have been away from this case for a while. Today, I accidentally came across Tom Jones' live performance at the Diamond Jubilee in London. And for the first time in my life, I listened to the words of that song, Delilah. It was written in 1967. Before all modern faddish movements. I wonder if BK had it on Spotify and if it was all that it took for the motive. Far-fetched, but who knows. A girl behind a window, a knife.
Unlikely today’s youth even know who Tom Jones is. IMO
 
  • #189
I disagree that we could sit on the jury. The amount of sleuthing we've done/read would immediately disqualify us (and I think for good reason). The legal experts here can clarify if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the jury is supposed to hear only what is allowed in court and if you have outside knowledge of a case, that would disqualify you.

I also would have major doubts that they can find an impartial jury in Moscow or even Latah County when the university likely makes up a large percentage of the 25,000 people living there (professors, administrative staff, and students). I think it would be very difficult to be a UI employee or student and/or have kids who are students and be able to remain objective or to not have heard things through the grapevine.

As for a change of venue being expensive, I get that. But I think that has to be balanced against the fact that this a huge case, possibly one of the biggest trials ID has seen in a long time. It's going to be expensive, like all trials are, but it's going to be even worse with this one because it's getting international attention. IMO, a change of venue has to be very strongly considered.

All the above is MOO.
BBM

I'm not a legal expert but I think the requirement is that a juror make his/her judgment about the defendant's guilt based only on what is presented at the trial. The requirement is not that the juror not have heard anything about the case outside of the courtroom prior to trial. In very low profile cases the defense may choose to dismiss the very few potential jurors who come in with prior knowledge. A jury can still be seated. But that is a luxury not a legal requirement and it's not realistic to expect to be able to do that in high-profile cases.

Of course, there are concerns about whether a juror can truly set aside prior exposure to information (information that may or may not be credible) especially when such information, even if credible, may not be admissable at trial. Hence we sometimes see gag orders to try to minimize exposure. But gag orders don't stop potentially harmful ideas from being expressed, say, by ill-informed retired FBI agents. I remember in the Gabby Petito case one such person was saying in mid-Oct just days before his skeleton was found in the nature preserve miles from his parents' house that clearly Brian Laundrie had left the country with his parents' help in early Sept. That person has commented on this case too.

As various court opinions have said, a change of venue doesn't guarantee a jury pool that knows nothing about the case. And as you say this case has gotten international attention so where in Idaho can people be found who don't know about the case?
JMO
 
  • #190
My jury duty voir dires included some form of "Do you know, or think you might know any of the XYZ....including lawyers, detectives, police officers, victims.....Have you ever been the victim of a crime?"

IMO The people of Moscow are victims, direct or indirect--tertiary victims. The Moscow community was "on edge" for weeks following the murders. People were changed having daily life disrupted with anxiety and fear, grief. Psychological distress isn't easy to unpack and it does so on it's own schedule (think PTSD). No doubt a dozen or so people for a jury/alternates could be found in Moscow, but a change of jury pool/change of venue where people are less connected to the crime might actually be more "fair."

jmo

"Tertiary victims are individuals who might have never met the individual who has been harmed but are changed by the crime they suffered. Communities, for example, can be tertiary victims."
 
  • #191
Unlikely today’s youth even know who Tom Jones is. IMO
Who knows? Diamond Jubilee was in 2012, and then, the Welsh rugby team story with this song. It is true that I don’t expect US gens Y or Z to know much about these events, but what if? Sitting at home during COVID and listening to the Spotify.
 
  • #192
Unlikely today’s youth even know who Tom Jones is. IMO

But the story with the Welsh rugby Union and this song, and that got some traction and discussions on the Internet, maybe in some specific male-oriented groups. I easily admit that Tom Jones is not known to US gens Y and Z, but the discussions about DV vs cancel culture are very much “in”.
 
  • #193
Just revisiting the issue of BK's personal, expressed thoughts out there in potential violation of the gag order. When he files his motion for change of venue, and the Judge, concerned about a violation of her gag order, asks how his personal thoughts somehow were published by MSM ---how does he respond?

I don't think BK has any ability to contact MSM directly. Therefore it is 3rd person and therefor considered hearsay.

Notice that when there are inmates talking to the press, it's always directly on site at the prison. Or thru their lawyer... again, thru the lawyer is 3rd person.

Otherwise, you would see a bevy of constant conversations with the press trying to sway public opinion.
 
  • #194
Just revisiting the issue of BK's personal, expressed thoughts out there in potential violation of the gag order. When he files his motion for change of venue, and the Judge, concerned about a violation of her gag order, asks how his personal thoughts somehow were published by MSM ---how does he respond?
I'm not sure BK would know how those thoughts were published since he's in jail. I'm not sure he'd even know his alleged thoughts are being published.

I'd be pretty surprised if the judge decides to grill a prisoner about possible gag order violations especially when the published info was so innocuous. (He hopes to be exonerated and believes he will be? Wow. That's breaking news.) But as I've said before, I'd likely be disturbed when the press (for example, AB) makes repeated claims about having sources "close to the prosecution" for info reported. And the info involves things like the prosecution thinking AT should be removed from the case and the implication the judge made an error to not remove her.. I do realize there could be all kinds of sources for that info. But it's not really innocuous.
JMO
 
  • #195
Who knows? Diamond Jubilee was in 2012, and then, the Welsh rugby team story with this song. It is true that I don’t expect US gens Y or Z to know much about these events, but what if? Sitting at home during COVID and listening to the Spotify.
All I can add about Tom Jones and Delilah is that it came on the radio 2 or 3 days ago. I rarely listen to the radio (1-2 hrs a month and that's likely over estimated) so I'm sure it's played a lot more often than my chance encounter with the song a few days ago. I prefer She's A Lady myself. lol

So the song is still out there being played by stations so maybe BK did know it.
 
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  • #196
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  • #197
  • #198
Here are some speculations about what may have happened. CK's true complaint does not implicate any ethical standard. It is a cry of pain arising from a very natural sense of betrayal: the person CK expected to negotiate a deal to get her into rehab and miraculously keep her out of jail assigned someone else to do that in order to represent the alleged butcher of her daughter. Everybody gets that.

But the media, starved for factual news, seize on the pain and drama to grab some eyeballs and keep the case in the news. They manage to find some attorneys who know there is no real issue but give newsworthy quotes that suggest there is.

Encouraged, CK goes to the disciplinary counsel and learns that there is no issue. She talks to a private attorney who can offer only sympathy. The PD had a legal right to assign another attorney to her case, and the reason for that decision - the need to devote substantial time to BK's defense - doesn't matter under the rules. The conflict of interest issue - if any exists at all - belongs to BK and he isn't complaining. CK has no basis for a personal claim that her representation in the drug case has been compromised by the substitution of very competent outside counsel: AT made sure CK's interests were well protected, in complete satisfaction of her obligations as an attorney.

Frustrated, CK goes to the DA, who is faced with a hot potato of an issue. He represents the state, not the victims. He has no more standing than CK to ask the court to remove AT from representation of BK. But he must keep CK on side, so he agrees to do something. In an informal conversation with the judge (one hopes with AT present), he points to the public controversy that is undermining public confidence in the process, and asks the judge to consider it in the interest of justice and the integrity of the court process. The judge and AT agree to meet privately, and in that meeting AT - an officer of the court - makes representations that satisfy the judge there is no significant issue. The DA can go back to CK and say, "Look - I'm your hero. I have advocated on your behalf and done what I can do. The judge undertook to look into it and the matter is resolved. We can disagree with the decision, but it's been made. Time to move on." CK interprets the DA' statements through her lens, and AB interprets CK's description through her own lens, and you get the published story.
Thank you for such a clear and compassionate description of this issue. I think non-experts see what looks like another blow to a woman who has lost her daughter and, without knowing how the legal system works in general and the PD office in particular, think this should all just be "fixed" to mitigate CK's (CN's) pain.
 
  • #199
I don't know who AB's sources are or if they actually exist. But in the above Twitter conversation someone accused her of using Reddit and Facebook posts as sources. She responded "Wrong… Those are not our sources. I was crystal clear last night -our sources are close to the investigation and close to the prosecution."

She does seem to be determined to make that claim.
JMO
If she can't name the source, I don't credit anything Banfield says, if only that "people close to the investigation...and prosecution" may be 6 degrees of separation, may have no actual knowledge or may have an agenda.
 
  • #200
Agent Coffindaffer posted a couple of Mom's posts, while gaming. I've seen them but didn't know if they'd been released by MSM before.

According to her posts, BK left PA for WSU on June 26, 2022. So that answers one of the questions we had on here which generated quite a bit of discussion.

Perhaps it was a four-day drive, and he moved into this campus apartment on July 1, 2022, or was able to get the key upon arrival, even if it was a day or so earlier.
 
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