4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 73

[BeginnerSleuther]

IANAL, but I did say in my post that Dad would have to know what he did. As I read the accessory statute, Dad merely had to know what he did, then "(1) Willfully withhold or conceal it from a peace officer," or "(2) Harbor and protect a person who committed such felony". Just from a literal reading of the words, I think simply allowing him to come home and stay there would be harboring IF he knew.

Now, I have no idea at all how that would work across state lines.

INAL either, but I believe that's an inaccurate read of the law. Merely being told by someone they committed a crime doesn't make you an accessory. If that were the case, many, many, many people could be charged, probably daily with being accessories. Also, I just don't think that letting your kid come home over Christmas break (as was likely the plan from the get-go) makes you guilty of harboring.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

If my adult son is staying at my house and tells me he committed murder it is not against the law for me to not say anything.

However, if LE questions me about it and I try to cover for my son by making misleading statements to LE, then that is obstruction of justice and lying to police officers

To harbor a fugitive in your house an arrest warrant has to have been issued. You are not harboring a fugitive without that arrest warrant.

2 Cents

Agree with this. As far as I know, there is no legal requirement for parents (or anyone) to turn someone in for a crime. To be guilty of an accessory charge, you have to hide the person (harbor) or actively help them cover up the crime. There's no evidence the father did any of this, even if he knew (which there's no evidence he did).

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

BK in fact did have a warrant out for his arrest while he was at his parents house.

Snipped for focus. I think that's a little misleading. He had a warrant out for his arrest so he could be arrested, which he was. It isn't that he had a warrant out and the parents hid him to protect him.

MOO.

 

[Cool Cats]

Agree with this. As far as I know, there is no legal requirement for parents (or anyone) to turn someone in for a crime. To be guilty of an accessory charge, you have to hide the person (harbor) or actively help them cover up the crime. There's no evidence the father did any of this, even if he knew (which there's no evidence he did).

MOO.

Exactly what I have been trying to say.

There was a family who committed 8 murders and they hid the guns, a knife, stolen security cameras and stolen phones from the victims etc...On the property of an innocent family member. Actually they put the murder items/evidence in buckets then filled them with quick cement and used the buckets to anchor a floating goose house on a pond on the property. The goose house was a gift for the family patriarch.

Because the property owners had no idea they were harboring murder items under their floating goose house they committed NO crime.

If the property owners had been told that the items were hidden in their pond then they would have been obligated to tell LE. This is an example of knowing something about a crime and you need to report it.

Had they known this and not reported it, it would be obstruction of justice and tampering with evidence and aiding murders after the fact.

Knowing things is not a crime but to allow your property to be used to conceal evidence from LE crosses the line. Or to know something about a crime but lie to LE, that too crosses the line.

But even if BK confessed to his dad before the trip, it wouldn't be a crime that he accompanied BK across the country. If there was an arrest warrant out for BK and his dad said "I will help you sneak across the country to hide at home" then that is a crime - obstructing an investigation - harboring a fugitive - amongst other charges.

2 Cents

 

[Boxer]

Not likely BK asked if anyone else was arrested because Newsweek tried to confirm this and wasn't able to. The source for this isn't a reliable source. "I was told this" is not reliable.

Please link if you find a better source. Thank you.

Agree. I was responding to a poster using the alleged statement to support the idea BK had an accomplice.

 

[Boxer]

I disagree. He did not harbor his son. His son had a planned trip out of town and the father had planned to accompany him. They weren't hiding. They didn't change cars. They didn't paint the car. They didn't wear masks. They literally did nothing to evade police. We know this because police found them - twice - in IN. The FBI tailed them. There is nothing to suggest the father broke any laws, whether he knew or didn't know that BK did this.

MOO.

MOO only talking about the state of BLs thinking during the arrest.

 

[Boxer]

Snipped for focus. I think that's a little misleading. He had a warrant out for his arrest so he could be arrested, which he was. It isn't that he had a warrant out and the parents hid him to protect him.

MOO.

Agree. But he did have a warrant for his arrest.

But again, I am only speaking to in my opinion would be the reason BK allegedly asked if anyone else was arrested.

 

[Cool Cats]

Agree. But he did have a warrant for his arrest.

But again, I am only speaking to in my opinion would be the reason BK allegedly asked if anyone else was arrested.

If he asked that, it would be to throw investigators off, deflect from himself I think.

And it worked because if he said this it has created much media stir as to speculation about an accomplice.

 

[Charlot123]

Agree, MOO he did not tell father. I don’t think father had any suspicion on the road trip from his demeanor in either of the police stops.
But he may have had some idea after from BKs behavior while at home, “out damn spot etc..”
I am sure no one wants to charge this poor father with anything, but the truth remains if the father came to the conclusion that BK committed the murders, his status changed to accessory for providing harbor. And I think a criminalogy student would be sensitive to what that would mean.

With the parents, there is unbelievable power of denial, and we all, parents, know it. I am sure that he was simply happy to have his boy home for Xmas, and if there was any hint at something amiss, it was probably his son's academic performance.

 

[Nova]

The coroner is a medical professional, she had a long career as a nurse before going back to school and getting a law degree.

Also, according to the CDC, only 4 states require that a coroner be a physician - the four states are Kansas, Louisiana, Minnesota and Ohio.

CDC - Coroner Training Requirements - Coroner/Medical Examiner Laws - Public Health Law

Explore a map that depicts the training requirements for coroners.

www.cdc.gov

Fair enough. I stand (politely) corrected, thank you.

Per google, here are the requirements to be coroner of my own county (Riverside) in CA:

"Specialized Training for Coroners

1. Be at least 18 years old.
2. Possess a high school diploma or GED.
3. Be currently employed as a medical examiner or coroner and have the major job responsibility of conducting death scene in investigations.
4. Have at least 640 hours of death investigation experience."

Perhaps something similar was required of the Moscow coroner, but the fact that the autopsies were performed in a separate state makes me wonder. Of course, it may have just been that the number of victims was more than any single coroner could handle efficiently. Again, I'm not throwing stones at the Moscow coroner; obviously, I know less than nothing about her.

 

[Nova]

MOO he meant his father whom he used.

That has been my presumption as well. The PA house appears big enough--and there were sufficient personnel involved in the "raid"--that BK's father may not have been in the same room when BK was taken into custody.

If BK actually said, "Did you arrest anybody else?", it was an excited utterance, IMO, not a carefully considered attempt to probe LE for info. Since the father helped BK remove evidence--the Elantra--from Idaho, in the crush of the entry and arrest, BK may have wondered if he had inadvertently ensnared his father in an accomplice-after-the-fact charge.

All of the above is speculation on my part, of course, but that's what makes the most sense to me in terms of BK's reported remark.

 

[Nova]

BBM.

Is it? Can you link a source please? I really don't think it's a criminal act for a killer to leave the state in which the crime occurred in if they're not hiding themselves or hiding evidence. This was a planned trip, IMO. He didn't change the car, didn't paint it, didn't leave the country to flee law enforcement (in fact, he was stopped twice in IN), didn't take any steps that make me think the father could be charged with "accessory." I guess we could argue that the father didn't turn him in, but I'm still not sure as I think that would depend on when the father found out (on the road trip vs before) and if he was trying to talk him into turning himself in.

If BK is guilty, he literally committed a heinous quadruple murder and went back to living his life as if nothing happened. Short of the murder weapon, he didn't change his sheets (or whatever that the warrant noted had stains on it), didn't change/paint his car, only left town when everyone else did for the holidays (even though, he would have had a prime excuse to leave town right after the murders as many other students did). It's like he either underestimated LE or he was wanting to get caught.

Now if the father helped him get rid of evidence, like the knife or something, THEN definitely accessory. But IMO, this road trip had been planned well in advance of the murders and they didn't do anything to evade LE, so I don't see this being an accessory case.

MOO.

All of that is quite logical, Sleuther. Except that if it could be proven that BK removed the car from the Moscow jurisdiction to avoid detection, he could be charged with obstruction of justice. (You and I will agree, I think, that it would be a tough charge to prove given the circumstances of the end of term, winter holiday, etc., and the fact that LE was reportedly looking for a different model year of Elantra.)

I shouldn't put words in Boxer's mouth, but I think s/he and I are saying that BK may not have had time to reason all of that in the instant during which they slapped on the cuffs.

The Kohlbergers seem like a close family--of course, I don't actually know them--and whatever his deficiencies, BK may have feared in that moment he had gotten his dad into legal trouble.

The above is speculation and my opinion. It doesn't seem we even know for sure that BK asked the question.

 

[Charlot123]

Fair enough. I stand (politely) corrected, thank you.

Per google, here are the requirements to be coroner of my own county (Riverside) in CA:

"Specialized Training for Coroners

1. Be at least 18 years old.
2. Possess a high school diploma or GED.
3. Be currently employed as a medical examiner or coroner and have the major job responsibility of conducting death scene in investigations.
4. Have at least 640 hours of death investigation experience."

Perhaps something similar was required of the Moscow coroner, but the fact that the autopsies were performed in a separate state makes me wonder. Of course, it may have just been that the number of victims was more than any single coroner could handle efficiently. Again, I'm not throwing stones at the Moscow coroner; obviously, I know less than nothing about her.

For me not to be confused about it, because I first read the word in some old British detective novels, and maybe things have changed since that time.

Is coroner a pathologist who performs autopsies, or not? Or is his mostly bureaucratic job related to issuing death certificates and notifying the public?

 

[Nova]

BK's dad did not commit a crime. Not fair to him to make it sound like he helped BK flee or harbored BK as a fugitive....

Nobody here has done so. We were talking about what BK may have thought in a moment of extreme confusion--awaken in the night, the house full of officers, suddenly in handcuffs and separated from the other residents of the house, etc.

Unless I missed something, nobody has even speculated that BK's father knew about the crime, much less was involved in a cover-up (other than accidentally).

<modsnip>

 

[Nova]

For me not to be confused about it, because I first read the word in some old British detective novels, and maybe things have changed since that time.

Is coroner a pathologist who performs autopsies, or not? Or is his mostly bureaucratic job related to issuing death certificates and notifying the public?

I thought I knew, but now I'm not sure any more.

Given the requirement that one have experience in performing autopsies plus formal training (though not medical school), it appears that in my county, yes, the Coroner performs autopsies. Whether that is normally true in Moscow, ID, I don't know.

 

[iamshadow21]

For me not to be confused about it, because I first read the word in some old British detective novels, and maybe things have changed since that time.

Is coroner a pathologist who performs autopsies, or not? Or is his mostly bureaucratic job related to issuing death certificates and notifying the public?

A coroner is a LEGAL appointment. A coroner is someone who makes rulings around deaths. In some places, it is a requirement for a coroner to be a medical doctor, but not everywhere.

The coroner makes a ruling on the death (suicide, homicide, misadventure, etc.).

The pathologist or anthropologist does the physical examination, autopsy, etc.

Think of an Agatha Christie novel, where they all go to the inquest after someone suspiciously keels over into their parsnips after someone else has been hovering around the stewpot with a vial of poison. They don't know who did it yet, but the person in charge of the inquest says 'murder by person or persons unknown' and they all troop outside wondering who's going to be bumped off next.

The person who ruled 'murder' based on the testimony and evidence at the inquest is a coroner. This directs the police etc. to look harder at the death and find the person responsible.

The doctor who talked on the stand about finding arsenic in the person's stomach is the pathologist.

Does that help?

MOO

 

[Boxer]

That has been my presumption as well. The PA house appears big enough--and there were sufficient personnel involved in the "raid"--that BK's father may not have been in the same room when BK was taken into custody.

If BK actually said, "Did you arrest anybody else?", it was an excited utterance, IMO, not a carefully considered attempt to probe LE for info. Since the father helped BK remove evidence--the Elantra--from Idaho, in the crush of the entry and arrest, BK may have wondered if he had inadvertently ensnared his father in an accomplice-after-the-fact charge.

All of the above is speculation on my part, of course, but that's what makes the most sense to me in terms of BK's reported remark.

I agree. It was reported his parents were held separately and he never saw them firing the arrest.

 

[Cool Cats]

For me not to be confused about it, because I first read the word in some old British detective novels, and maybe things have changed since that time.

Is coroner a pathologist who performs autopsies, or not? Or is his mostly bureaucratic job related to issuing death certificates and notifying the public?

Coroner vs. Forensic Pathologist: What's the Difference?

Learn about what a coroner and a forensic pathologist do, and explore a list of key ways that the two career paths differ from each other.

www.indeed.com

What is a Coroner and What Do They Do?

A Medical Examiner is a licensed forensic pathologist who investigates suspicious deaths. A coroner is an elected or appointed public official whose primary duty is to determine and certify cause of death.

www.sciencecare.com

 

[I'm Nobody]

Re: Was anyone else arrested? or Did you arrest anyone else?

LE sources reported BK talked to himself when he was nervous, walked himself through situations out loud. The night of his arrest, BK, maybe worried his folks had been arrested or thinking about it, asked himself if anyone else had been arrested. I think he was trying to narrate his way through what was going on after around 50 "tactical assets" raided the house breaking windows & doors.
jmo

"He seemed really nervous," a police source who was involved in the process tells PEOPLE. "He was narrating to himself everything that was happening. At one point, he was saying something to himself like 'I'm fine, this is okay.' Like he was reassuring himself that this whole thing wasn't awful."

Idaho Murder Suspect Spoke About Slain Students During Extradition: 'It's Really Sad What Happened to Them'

Bryan Kohberger, 28, was arrested in Pennsylvania in connection with the killings of Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen, and Kaylee Goncalves

people.com

Idaho murders: PA police say 'force was used' when search warrant was executed at Kohberger home

Pennsylvania police say "force was used" when law enforcement executed a search warrant in the arrest of Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger on Dec. 30.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Dotta]

Re: Was anyone else arrested? or Did you arrest anyone else?

LE sources reported BK talked to himself when he was nervous, walked himself through situations out loud. The night of his arrest, BK, maybe worried his folks had been arrested or thinking about it, asked himself if anyone else had been arrested. I think he was trying to narrate his way through what was going on after around 50 "tactical assets" raided the house breaking windows & doors.
jmo

"He seemed really nervous," a police source who was involved in the process tells PEOPLE. "He was narrating to himself everything that was happening. At one point, he was saying something to himself like 'I'm fine, this is okay.' Like he was reassuring himself that this whole thing wasn't awful."

Idaho Murder Suspect Spoke About Slain Students During Extradition: 'It's Really Sad What Happened to Them'

Bryan Kohberger, 28, was arrested in Pennsylvania in connection with the killings of Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen, and Kaylee Goncalves

people.com

Idaho murders: PA police say 'force was used' when search warrant was executed at Kohberger home

Pennsylvania police say "force was used" when law enforcement executed a search warrant in the arrest of Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger on Dec. 30.

www.foxnews.com

Was he narrating to himself during this terrible night?

If guilty, of course.