4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 73

[I'm Nobody]

Was he narrating to himself during this terrible night?

If guilty, of course.

Yep @Dotta threads ago I posted I thought he was talking to himself the night of the murders. Dylan overheard him that night--the "going to help you" bit. He was going to help himself get through the rest of it. Beginning to look like his M.O. BK stresses, talks himself through.
maybe, maybe not. jmo

 

[Shamrock1]

Agree with this. As far as I know, there is no legal requirement for parents (or anyone) to turn someone in for a crime. To be guilty of an accessory charge, you have to hide the person (harbor) or actively help them cover up the crime. There's no evidence the father did any of this, even if he knew (which there's no evidence he did).

MOO.

A requirement to turn someone in is forced speech & unconstitutional. There are some very narrow statutory examples, such as mandated reporters.

 

[maskedwoman]

Agree. But he did have a warrant for his arrest.

But again, I am only speaking to in my opinion would be the reason BK allegedly asked if anyone else was arrested.

Agreed. People point to his criminology studies as why he would have understood the law, but criminology is the study of crime and criminal behavior, nonlegal topics. We don't know if he really asked whether anyone else was arrested but it would be a weird thing this "source" to make up. Either way, I don't see that his degree would have given him any special insight on the possible criminal charges anyone might have faced.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

All of that is quite logical, Sleuther. Except that if it could be proven that BK removed the car from the Moscow jurisdiction to avoid detection, he could be charged with obstruction of justice. (You and I will agree, I think, that it would be a tough charge to prove given the circumstances of the end of term, winter holiday, etc., and the fact that LE was reportedly looking for a different model year of Elantra.)

And the fact that it was a nationwide search, not a search restricted to Moscow, ID. So I don't think it would even be possible to assume he moved the car to avoid detection. Had he left the country, then I'd agree. MOO.

I shouldn't put words in Boxer's mouth, but I think s/he and I are saying that BK may not have had time to reason all of that in the instant during which they slapped on the cuffs.

Initially, yes. But the post I was responding to said that if the father knew, then it would be accessory after the fact (independent of what BK thought; this was just about the father's knowledge --> accessory). I accept that if BK said this, it may have been said because of his fear that he implicated his family. I'll go a step further and say regardless of what BK did or didn't say, the father would not be guilty of accessory simply because he knew his son committed a crime and still drove back to PA with him.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Fair enough. I stand (politely) corrected, thank you.

Per google, here are the requirements to be coroner of my own county (Riverside) in CA:

"Specialized Training for Coroners

1. Be at least 18 years old.
2. Possess a high school diploma or GED.
3. Be currently employed as a medical examiner or coroner and have the major job responsibility of conducting death scene in investigations.
4. Have at least 640 hours of death investigation experience."

Perhaps something similar was required of the Moscow coroner, but the fact that the autopsies were performed in a separate state makes me wonder. Of course, it may have just been that the number of victims was more than any single coroner could handle efficiently. Again, I'm not throwing stones at the Moscow coroner; obviously, I know less than nothing about her.

Agree. I think it's confusing because it seems inappropriate. IMO, a coroner should be a physician. The ME is, but I think coroner and ME are often confused. As a physician who has assisted in autopsies (with an MD forensic pathologist/medical examiner) during training, this still confuses me and I don't quite understand why both are necessary. JMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

For me not to be confused about it, because I first read the word in some old British detective novels, and maybe things have changed since that time.

Is coroner a pathologist who performs autopsies, or not? Or is his mostly bureaucratic job related to issuing death certificates and notifying the public?

I believe in most states, the coroner doesn't have to be a pathologist. It does seem more of a bureaucratic job, sometimes elected by the public. I don't get it.

MOO.

 

[Nikynoo]

If AB's source was from LE, LE could have gone through BK's SM plus the victims' accounts back when they first identified BK as the possible perp in late Nov 2022. At that time there should be no fake accounts since the public did not yet have his name. IMO

IMO AB's source is Reddit.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Nobody here has done so. We were talking about what BK may have thought in a moment of extreme confusion--awaken in the night, the house full of officers, suddenly in handcuffs and separated from the other residents of the house, etc.

Unless I missed something, nobody has even speculated that BK's father knew about the crime, much less was involved in a cover-up (other than accidentally).

<modsnip>

Respectfully, the discussion launched off what BK may have thought to another discussion based on whether or not it would be a crime if BK's dad knew before the road trip. No one insinuated he did know, but there was speculation about what would happen if he did (not just what BK thought).

 

[10ofRods]

Brian Laundrie’s parents were in a bit similar situation, his girlfriend was missing he went home.
states have different laws regarding accessory after the fact in regards to parents, apparently Florida shields them.

Law may protect Brian Laundrie’s parents from accessory charges but not from other allegations

Parents cannot be charged as accessories after the fact under Florida law, but the exemption stops there.

www.wfla.com

I am not saying the father was an accessory after the fact, I am saying BK would be aware his parents could be in that jeopardy and asked if anyone else was arrested meaning his parents.

Every state has a different stature in the matter.Some but not all shield parents in some way.

BK in fact did have a warrant out for his arrest while he was at his parents house.

You and I are on the same page. The entire conversation about whether anyone obstructed justice or was an accessory after the fact is purely theoretical and since parents haven't been charged, likely beside the point.

This point wouldn't even come up if it had not been reported that BK asked whether anyone else was arrested. It's about the contents of his mind and his thinking. What did he think and believe at the time? He had probably been worryingp about what was coming next in his life. He knew they were onto him (boy, did he know it). But he wasn't sure about how LE would see his parents and what the law could or might do to them (BK was not a lawyer).

For all we know, BK was worried that Mom or Dad interacted with the police in a way that the police regarded as a problem at the time. Perhaps he worried that his dad tried to keep LE out - who knows? It was the middle of the night, the actual hour had arrived, BK's mind went where ever it went.

What if dad (not understanding exactly what was going on) had reached for his own weapon or pepper spray or whatever? BK doesn't know/didn't see any of those interactions.

We could make up scenarios all day. All we have is a yet-to-be-substantiated source saying that BK asked a question of arresting police. It goes to BK's state of mind, not to the laws of PA or any investigation/interviews of the parents.

IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Yep @Dotta threads ago I posted I thought he was talking to himself the night of the murders. Dylan overheard him that night--the "going to help you" bit. He was going to help himself get through the rest of it. Beginning to look like his M.O. BK stresses, talks himself through.
maybe, maybe not. jmo

That isn't my interpretation of the affidavit. In the affidavit, what Dylan heard, seemed like BK was talking to someone else, likely Xana, not to himself. JMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Agree, MOO he did not tell father. I don’t think father had any suspicion on the road trip from his demeanor in either of the police stops.
But he may have had some idea after from BKs behavior while at home, “out damn spot etc..”
I am sure no one wants to charge this poor father with anything, but the truth remains if the father came to the conclusion that BK committed the murders, his status changed to accessory for providing harbor. And I think a criminalogy student would be sensitive to what that would mean.

BBM. For clarification, the above is the post that some of us have been responding to. Respectfully, while I understand the discussion around BK's frame of mind, the above is simply about the father and, in a broader sense, when accessory charges are considered. MOO.

 

[10ofRods]

Brian Laundrie’s parents were in a bit similar situation, his girlfriend was missing he went home.
states have different laws regarding accessory after the fact in regards to parents, apparently Florida shields them.

Law may protect Brian Laundrie’s parents from accessory charges but not from other allegations

Parents cannot be charged as accessories after the fact under Florida law, but the exemption stops there.

www.wfla.com

I am not saying the father was an accessory after the fact, I am saying BK would be aware his parents could be in that jeopardy and asked if anyone else was arrested meaning his parents.

Every state has a different stature in the matter.Some but not all shield parents in some way.

BK in fact did have a warrant out for his arrest while he was at his parents house.

You and I are on the same page. The entire conversation about whether anyone obstructed justice or was an accessory after the fact is purely theoretical and since parents haven't been charged, likely beside the point.

This point wouldn't even come up if it had not been reported that BK asked whether anyone else was arrested. It's about the contents of his mind and his thinking. What did he think and believe at the time? He had probably been worryingp about what was coming next in his life. He knew they were onto him (boy, did he know it). But he wasn't sure about how LE would see his parents and what the law could or might do to them (BK was not a lawyer).

For all we know, BK was worried that Mom or Dad interacted with the police in a way that the police regarded as a problem at the time. Perhaps he worried that his dad tried to keep LE out - who knows? It was the middle of the night, the actual hour had arrived, BK's mind went where ever it went.

What if dad (not understanding exactly what was going on) had reached for his own weapon or pepper spray or whatever? BK doesn't know/didn't see any of those interactions.

We could make up scenarios all day. All we have is a yet-to-be-substantiated source saying that BK asked a question of arresting police. It goes to BK's state of mind, not to the laws of PA or any investigation/interviews of the parents.

I do not see *anyone* claiming that BK's parents were accessories after the fact. It's a moot point. Perhaps BK momentarily worried about that (or something else - who knows?)

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Agreed. People point to his criminology studies as why he would have understood the law, but criminology is the study of crime and criminal behavior, nonlegal topics. We don't know if he really asked whether anyone else was arrested but it would be a weird thing this "source" to make up. Either way, I don't see that his degree would have given him any special insight on the possible criminal charges anyone might have faced.

Actually, the program BK was in also had a heavy emphasis on criminal procedure.

As required per accreditation, the learning outcomes of the doctoral program are published online. Here is the *first* objective:

1. Disciplinary Proficiency: Students will be generally knowledgeable across the entire field
   of criminal justice and criminology

(Emphasis added). The class that BK was TA-ing with Dr. Snyder was "Introduction to Administration of Justice. The curriculum includes law and procedure, albeit, that first course is for undergrads and is hardly at the level that would qualify anyone for work in a law firm. But the upper division and graduate classes include an entire semester just on the juvenile justice system (including procedure), comparative criminal justice, advanced topics in criminal institutions and procedures. Dr Snyder is one of the main professors in criminal procedure.

Keeping in mind that BK took his BA in psychology and may not have had the full run of lower division courses, I'm not saying this was a ton of information about law and procedure, just that he should have had the knowledge and skills to research specific laws and procedures (if he ever did - we have no proof of his knowledge in this area).

At any rate, the program BK chose to go to was a doctoral program in Criminal Justice and Criminology (listed in that order) and included both. I've posted the current class schedule below - and just like last semester, there's very little in the program that requires prereqs in psychology or is particularly behaviorally oriented:

An error has occurred.

Hope that works. Ah, it didn't. The courses are:

The Washington State University pullman Catalog

catalog.wsu.edu

The behavioral courses, interestingly, have to do with addiction behavior, and also with drugs and their relationship to law and society.

 

[maskedwoman]

Actually, the program BK was in also had a heavy emphasis on criminal procedure.

As required per accreditation, the learning outcomes of the doctoral program are published online. Here is the *first* objective:



(Emphasis added). The class that BK was TA-ing with Dr. Snyder was "Introduction to Administration of Justice. The curriculum includes law and procedure, albeit, that first course is for undergrads and is hardly at the level that would qualify anyone for work in a law firm. But the upper division and graduate classes include an entire semester just on the juvenile justice system (including procedure), comparative criminal justice, advanced topics in criminal institutions and procedures. Dr Snyder is one of the main professors in criminal procedure.

Keeping in mind that BK took his BA in psychology and may not have had the full run of lower division courses, I'm not saying this was a ton of information about law and procedure, just that he should have had the knowledge and skills to research specific laws and procedures (if he ever did - we have no proof of his knowledge in this area).

At any rate, the program BK chose to go to was a doctoral program in Criminal Justice and Criminology (listed in that order) and included both. I've posted the current class schedule below - and just like last semester, there's very little in the program that requires prereqs in psychology or is particularly behaviorally oriented:

An error has occurred.

Hope that works. Ah, it didn't. The courses are:

The Washington State University pullman Catalog

catalog.wsu.edu

The behavioral courses, interestingly, have to do with addiction behavior, and also with drugs and their relationship to law and society.

Thank you. That's very interesting about his courses at Pullman. Now I'm confused about his degree from DeSales. If I remember correctly, his Masters was Criminology? But when I look, there doesn't seem to be a Masters in Criminology listed. Only varieties of Criminal Justice, one or two of which a younger version of me probably should have considered.

404 - Uh oh! | DeSales University

We can't find the page you were looking for.

www.desales.edu

 

[Gemmie]

Was he narrating to himself during this terrible night?

If guilty, of course.

Your comment made me think of something (that I think you made in jest). What if he WAS narrating to himself during the killings? I've never been able to figure out the whole "D.M. stated she opened her door a second time when she heard what she thought was crying coming from Kemodle's room. D.M. then said she heard a male voice say something to the effect of "it's ok, I'm going to help you."

D.M. didn't say that's was she heard for sure, she said it was 'something to the effect of'. Maybe she heard BK trying to convince himself everything was OK and she did hear "It's OK" because it's my belief he went there to kill 1 person (Maddie), and was surprised to find Kaylee sleeping with her so he felt he had to kill her too. That's 2.

Now he's trying to get the heck out of dodge and runs into Xana & Ethan because she was up with the midnight munchies. "There's someone here" so Ethan goes to the bedroom door and looks out. He kills Ethan first so Xana is crying from the shock of what's unfolding before her eyes (this is all within a matter of mere seconds as it's my belief everything went down very fast, faster than it's taking me to type this and I'm a fast typer!).

This is where the possible BK narration comes into play. Now BK is telling himself "It's OK" (Because now he's killed 3 when he only came to kill one, and about to kill #4 and likely freaking out about his plan going VERY astray) and then something to the effect of "I'm going to help you". Now he goes after Xana (or maybe he was stabbing Xana when he said that because it's my opinion her killing took longer because she fought back).

So, we know he narrates because LE has told us so, so it is my belief the voice D.M. heard was BK narrating to himself, not Ethan or BK talking to someone (Xana). And he likely narrated to himself all the way home IMO.

As an aside... I used to work for a (strange) guy who used to talk to himself. Well, not exactly to himself (I think we all do that to some extent so nothing strange about that), but specifically to his left shoulder. And whatever it was would be funny from time to time because he'd then laugh loudly about whatever his shoulder must have told him back. Or maybe he was laughing at what he said to his shoulder. Who knows. I for darn sure wasn't going to ask which it was. Anyway... so people do talk out loud, and BK narrates, so... I think it was very likely it was BK narrating that D.M. heard. I just wish I could figure out what BK possibly could have said with the "I'm going to help you" part.

 

[Dotta]

"Bryan Kohberger could face firing squad if convicted."​

Bryan Kohberger could face firing squad if convicted of Idaho students’ murder

A GOP state lawmaker last week introduced a bill that would bring back the firing squad as a legal form of execution in Idaho, according to the East Idaho News.

nypost.com

 

[10ofRods]

Thank you. That's very interesting about his courses at Pullman. Now I'm confused about his degree from DeSales. If I remember correctly, his Masters was Criminology? But when I look, there doesn't seem to be a Masters in Criminology listed. Only varieties of Criminal Justice, one or two of which a younger version of me probably should have considered.

404 - Uh oh! | DeSales University

We can't find the page you were looking for.

www.desales.edu

DeSales doesn't have a criminology program, so far as I know - just criminal justice. Criminal Justice is by far the most common degree around the nation (we have a program where I teach - it's almost exclusively populated by LE who want to move up in their organization).

At WSU, I think it's only the doctorate that has the additional words "and criminology" as part of the degree title.

BK seems to have had a longterm interest in LE, but never managed to make the grade (except to work part time as a security guard at his former high school).

But BK did take an AA and a BA in psychology, so he does have the right kind of undergrad background to focus on the more behavioral side of Criminology. The reason that most top tier schools do *not* have a degree in criminology is, well, in the words of my own alma mater's webpage (if I search "I want to major in criminology)...it says, "Go to law school" and "consider a graduate program in a social science."

This is not to say that there aren't outstanding criminology programs - there are. But as you can see from the WSU offerings mentioned above, it's mostly on the C.Justice side rather than the profiling/criminology/sociology/psychology side.

IMO.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Kaylee's Range Rover was released to the family. I seem to recall another victim's vehicle was released. I think it was Maddie's. Why is the defense keeping Ethan's Jeep and his brother's Ford SUV?

January 12, 2023

Mother of Ethan Chapin shares update on family two months after losing son

A scholarship in Ethan's name has already raised more than $100,000.

www.krem.com

Chapin and his twin brother and sister were inseparable. This week, they returned to campus without him. Chapin's mom says anything he had is now 'frozen with the defense.' For them, that includes two cars, his personal belongings and a 'nice set of golf clubs.'

 

[Idaho transplant]

Kaylee's Range Rover was released to the family. I seem to recall another victim's vehicle was released. I think it was Maddie's. Why is the defense keeping Ethan's Jeep and his brother's Ford SUV?

January 12, 2023

Mother of Ethan Chapin shares update on family two months after losing son

A scholarship in Ethan's name has already raised more than $100,000.

www.krem.com

Chapin and his twin brother and sister were inseparable. This week, they returned to campus without him. Chapin's mom says anything he had is now 'frozen with the defense.' For them, that includes two cars, his personal belongings and a 'nice set of golf clubs.'

I'm so relieved to hear that the house will be torn down sometime this spring. It will be a wonderful memorial to the 4 and I look forward to seeing what the Univ. does for a garden on campus. IDAHO STRONG

 

[mooseandcoffee]

If it’s such a stupid argument, why is it such a common argument of defense attorneys? And in this case, an attorney who had the ability to throw family members of the victims to the wolves could actually make a plausible argument. (Often, the defense attorney just has to invent cartel members or drug connections out of thin air.)

That’s where that pesky conflict of interests comes in.

MOO

That seems like a pretty bold statement to make. MOO