4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

With respect, I think you are turning BK into a super-villain. I think one keeps a knife that large in its sheath so nobody sees you with it in the street and so you don't accidentally cut yourself while swinging your arms when you walk.

I'm not a big knife person, but I think walking around with such a big knife loose in your hand would be like walking while holding a loaded gun with the safety off: just asking for trouble.

IIRC, the sheath was said to have been found "next" to Maddy's body. I don't recall the source and I don't remember that the report said the sheath was on the bed, a nightstand, or the floor.

Since we don't know in what order M and K were attacked, there's no way to know for sure. But Occam's Razor argues, I would guess, that the intruder took the knife out its sheath just before he began to use it.

Yes it was found on the bed next to M & K who were found passed away in their bed together, as per report a few posts up thread.

I know the reports stated that discrete DNA belonging to BK was found on the snap button but seem to recall there were reports that there was barely any DNA or fibre on the sheath at all and it was a stroke of luck to find this tiny particle - maybe those reports were just hyperbole and drama included by the media as opposed to the truth. If they were true, then I would speculate it's almost impossible to carry something around and use it without it being covered in one's DNA.

Also, BK is not stupid and yet the sheath was there on the bed which is odd IMO if he did put such planning into this event. My personal speculation is that he didn't plan it much at all but other people say different.

 

[Gemmie]

I think there are quite a few theories that start delving into Hollywood style movie plots. Dateline and other TV shows haven't done us any favors either. In an effort to get their own unique take on a crime they often take quickly dismissed suspects and implausible theories and stretch them out into 50 minute episodes. So every murder has the intrigue and suspense of a crime novel.

Sometimes it just is what it is.

He was a Criminology PhD student at a decent public University so he MUST be a criminal mastermind? No, of course not. Intelligence has very little to do with competence in committing a crime. The more planning you do the longer a trail evidence you leave behind. Irony, the inherent kind.

Harvard Lawyers, MBAs, PhDs etc. with 'perfect' personal lives do stupid things all of the time and get caught. BK's personal life was far from perfect (could even be characterized as 'crumbling') and he was not Harvard material.

Let's stop giving this psychopath unwarranted credit.

MOO

You've sure been on this site a long time, with a small handful of messages posted over 14 yrs, but when you do post they sure do pack a punch!!!

Great post!

 

[iamshadow21]

Yes it was found on the bed next to M & K who were found passed away in their bed together, as per report a few posts up thread.

I know the reports stated that discrete DNA belonging to BK was found on the snap button but seem to recall there were reports that there was barely any DNA or fibre on the sheath at all and it was a stroke of luck to find this tiny particle - maybe those reports were just hyperbole and drama included by the media as opposed to the truth. If they were true, then I would speculate it's almost impossible to carry something around and use it without it being covered in one's DNA.

Also, BK is not stupid and yet the sheath was there on the bed which is odd IMO if he did put such planning into this event. My personal speculation is that he didn't plan it much at all but other people say different.

As far as I know there is nothing about the AMOUNT of DNA found. What it says in the PCA is that the DNA found on the snap was male, from a single source. That means it's all from one person, not that they only found a tiny amount.

And that the source of that DNA is almost certainly (with a incredibly high rate of probability) the child of the male person whose DNA they found on an item taken from BK's parents' garbage.

With the swabs taken on his arrest it will now have been confirmed that the DNA of BK matches the DNA on the snap.

MOO

 

[Nila Aella]

I wrote my question when the papers were first released, but nobody thought much of it. Your point about the writer making the letter "D" with two strokes brings me to ask it again:

Might the notation read: "ID (UDS)"? As in "University of DeSales". The correct name is DeSales University, but that would be an easy error for the writer to make. BK had only graduated a half-year before the raid and might well still have his student ID in a glove pocket or just loose in a winter glove.

I don't know about BK, but somewhere in a box I have ID cards from every university where I was a student or professor. IME, colleges don't collect those IDs when you leave, probably because students regularly withdraw for a term or two and then re-enroll.

I see what you mean! At first I thought the C and S were parentheses too. Look at the other c's and s's just surroounding that line about the ID cards. Many of them look like parentheses. MOO

"Bryan Kohberger lawyer blasts 'grotesquely twisted' media coverage of stabbing that killed 4 Idaho students."​

I find this wording a little bit unusual.
"Grotesquely" - really??

Are such expressions common in legal language?

"Grotesquely twisted" seems so unusual - well,
for me as a no native Eng speaker haha

I thought legal language should be matter of factly/unemotional, not fancy.

JMO

Bryan Kohberger lawyer blasts 'grotesquely twisted' media coverage of stabbing that killed 4 Idaho students

Bryan Kohberger's defense team blasted "grotesquely twisted" media coverage of the Idaho student stabbings case that left four University of Idaho undergrads dead in November.

www.q13fox.com

IMO JL needed to emphasize the scope and inacurate reporting that has already occurred and how continued reporting would greatly impact the defendant's right to a fair trial. Using those particular words IMO emphasizes the enormity of the medias interest in this case and that grossly inaccurate reporting has already occured.

Here is the whole quote (some of the quote was left out in the news stories)

"As will be examined below- what the media really seeks here is a procedural victory, knowing full well it cannot win on the merits of any test, given the pervasive and grotesquely twisted nature of media coverage that has occurred thus far."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/Supreme/50482-2023/030223%20Intervenor%20Kohberger%20Brief%20in%20Response%20to%20the%20Petition.pdf

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

MOO I would say he thought he cleaned it like all his gear, but the snap area grabbed a bit of TDNA and retained it.

Cleaned it and then never touched it again despite having taken it in his car, into the house, then taken the knife out of it, how his fibres and DNA weren't all over it? That's all I'm confused about.

Also, not trying to build BK into a hollywood villain, just trying to wonder how someone who maybe meticulously planned a crime to leave no evidence then left the sheath which is pretty stoopid. It's somewhat at odds. I know it's been discussed plenty before.

 

[maconrich]

Interesting reasoning, but, with respect, I think you make a small leap to your conclusion.

Even if the intruder could see X and/or E in the middle-floor kitchen from the viewpoint you mark on the stairs to the upper floor, we can't assume he would have felt comfortable waiting for X and/or E to return to their bedroom out of sight.

The intruder--hopped up on adrenaline as he must have been--might have felt trapped and chose to attack rather than wait out additional people on the middle floor.

I apologize in advance if I have misunderstood your conclusion. I think you are arguing the intruder wouldn't have been surprised by X or E. Maybe not "surprised", yet he might have felt threatened all the same and decided the best defense was a good offense.

Yes, it is a leap. This part was trying to see if the suspect could have gotten out of the house "safely" before or after being on the 3rd floor without harming Xana or Ethan. And considering the lay out of the house, I believe they had a decent to good chance of getting out if they'd decided to do so.

The emotional and psychological state of the intruder, including but not limited to how likely they would have been to fight instead of stepping into the shadows and waiting, impacted everything that happened from the moment the intruder entered the house. He/she could have been so zoned in that seeing anyone equaled seeing a threat or target, and exiting wasn't an option. If that was the case then it's also likely DM wasn't seen (unless she was recognized as not being a target. which may or may not explain why intruder passed her door without entering at least three times). Not accusing DM of anything as I believe she was also a victim. All IMHO and IMHO at this point at least

 

[Boxer]

Cleaned it and then never touched it again despite having taken it in his car, into the house, then taken the knife out of it, how his fibres and DNA weren't all over it? That's all I'm confused about.

Also, not trying to build BK into a hollywood villain, just trying to wonder how someone who maybe meticulously planned a crime to leave no evidence then left the sheath which is pretty stoopid. It's somewhat at odds. I know it's been discussed plenty before.

Gloves.

 

[Nila Aella]

While I was looking for the link for my last post, I found some additional filings in the gag order case that I had not seen before.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/Supreme/50482-2023/030323%20Declaration%20of%20Deborah%20A%20Ferguson.pdf

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/Supreme/50482-2023/030323%20Notice%20of%20Errata%20-%20Response%20to%20Writ%20for%20Mand%20or%20Prohib.pdf

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/Supreme/50482-2023/030323%20Respondents%20Brief%20in%20Opposition%20to%20Petition.pdf

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/Supreme/50482-2023/030323%20Respondents%20Verified%20Answer%20to%20Petition.pdf

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/Supreme/50482-2023/030323%20Brief%20in%20Opposition%20by%20Intervenor%20-%20State%20of%20Idaho.pdf

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Gloves.

Yep so he meticulously cleaned it, never touched it, used gloves, then left it there...

- dropped accidentally
- left on purpose (why?)
- discarded (assured it had none of his DNA or fibres, so he didn't care?)

 

[U.N. Known]

MOO I would say he thought he cleaned it like all his gear, but the snap area grabbed a bit of TDNA and retained it.

Your comment made me wonder...would the murderer bother keeping the sheath free of prints and/or DNA if he planned to take it with him? Even if he planned to dispose of the knife and sheath later, why not wait until after the murders to do clean it? Of course, the DNA may have been missed either way, but that does bring up the idea that others have speculated on: did he leave it on purpose or did someone else leave it there to implicate BK?

 

[maskedwoman]

I guess he could say he visits the local hunting and fishing store now and then and had maybe once handled the different types of knife on sale? Or that someone he once met showed him a knife they had purchased.

Those scenarios could certainly explain why his DNA is on the sheath, but not how the sheath travelled from a store to the bed beside the victim's body, still with no one else's DNA is on it. So, if it's just an enormous coincidence that his DNA was on this one sheath that ended up at the scene of a quadruple murder, then is it just another enormous coincidence that BK was caught speeding around the victim's neighborhood, with his phone in airplane mode, within moments of the murders? And that he downloaded pictures from the victims social media and reached out to them?

For me, the options are either 1) this person killed 4 people just for the sole purpose of framing BK (particularly heinous and cold) or 2) that person already intended to murder the roommates and picked him to frame for it to throw off the police. It's hard to believe this odd guy who can't make friends became entangled enough with anyone to be their pick to frame for a quadruple murder.

If they can really show that his phone got close enough to ping their wifi, and they have the video of his circling the neighborhood right before the murders. And I suspect a great deal will be made of the fact that there aren't a lot of other vehicles driving around at that time of morning. He and the door dash guy might be the only two seen. If that's the case, he's in a real bind as far as finding some other dude to have done it. MOOooo

 

[Cool Cats]

Cleaned it and then never touched it again despite having taken it in his car, into the house, then taken the knife out of it, how his fibres and DNA weren't all over it? That's all I'm confused about.

Also, not trying to build BK into a hollywood villain, just trying to wonder how someone who maybe meticulously planned a crime to leave no evidence then left the sheath which is pretty stoopid. It's somewhat at odds. I know it's been discussed plenty before.

Simple. Wore gloves. That would account for no DNA on anything but the snap.

Planning to use the knife for murder he was carefull not to touch it including the sheath.

Didn't want to transfered DNA from sheath to knife or from knife to victim.

But made a classic mistake and touched the snap with his uncovered finger.

Like someone touching a bullet casing but not the gun.

2 Cents

 

[Boxer]

Your comment made me wonder...would the murderer bother keeping the sheath free of prints and/or DNA if he planned to take it with him? Even if he planned to dispose of the knife and sheath later, why not wait until after the murders to do clean it? Of course, the DNA may have been missed either way, but that does bring up the idea that others have speculated on: did he leave it on purpose or did someone else leave it there to implicate BK?

MOO to me it looks like a person inept at blue collar work type error, not anticipating what happens to things in pockets under exertion, and not cleaning a thing thoroughly.

 

[Boxer]

Those scenarios could certainly explain why his DNA is on the sheath, but not how the sheath travelled from a store to the bed beside the victim's body, still with no one else's DNA is on it. So, if it's just an enormous coincidence that his DNA was on this one sheath that ended up at the scene of a quadruple murder, then is it just another enormous coincidence that BK was caught speeding around the victim's neighborhood, with his phone in airplane mode, within moments of the murders? And that he downloaded pictures from the victims social media and reached out to them?

For me, the options are either 1) this person killed 4 people just for the sole purpose of framing BK (particularly heinous and cold) or 2) that person already intended to murder the roommates and picked him to frame for it to throw off the police. It's hard to believe this odd guy who can't make friends became entangled enough with anyone to be their pick to frame for a quadruple murder.

If they can really show that his phone got close enough to ping their wifi, and they have the video of his circling the neighborhood right before the murders. And I suspect a great deal will be made of the fact that there aren't a lot of other vehicles driving around at that time of morning. He and the door dash guy might be the only two seen. If that's the case, he's in a real bind as far as finding some other dude to have done it. MOOooo

Exactly.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Those scenarios could certainly explain why his DNA is on the sheath, but not how the sheath travelled from a store to the bed beside the victim's body, still with no one else's DNA is on it. So, if it's just an enormous coincidence that his DNA was on this one sheath that ended up at the scene of a quadruple murder, then is it just another enormous coincidence that BK was caught speeding around the victim's neighborhood, with his phone in airplane mode, within moments of the murders? And that he downloaded pictures from the victims social media and reached out to them?

For me, the options are either 1) this person killed 4 people just for the sole purpose of framing BK (particularly heinous and cold) or 2) that person already intended to murder the roommates and picked him to frame for it to throw off the police. It's hard to believe this odd guy who can't make friends became entangled enough with anyone to be their pick to frame for a quadruple murder.

If they can really show that his phone got close enough to ping their wifi, and they have the video of his circling the neighborhood right before the murders. And I suspect a great deal will be made of the fact that there aren't a lot of other vehicles driving around at that time of morning. He and the door dash guy might be the only two seen. If that's the case, he's in a real bind as far as finding some other dude to have done it. MOOooo

Wait a sec. LE identified a single source of BK's DNA on the sheath. That doesn't mean it was the only DNA on the sheath. Only that they identified a single source of his DNA out of a mixture of however many other DNA sources were there.

Single source DNA profile recovery from single cells isolated from skin and fabric from touch DNA mixtures in mock physical assaults - PubMed

The ability to obtain DNA profiles from trace biological evidence is routinely demonstrated with so-called 'touch DNA evidence', which is generally perceived to be the result of DNA obtained from shed skin cells transferred from a donor's hands to an object or person during direct physical...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Single source DNA profile recovery from single cells isolated from skin and fabric from touch DNA mixtures in mock physical assaults​

In some instances involving transient contact between an assailant and victim, the victim's DNA may be found in such significant excess as to preclude the detection and typing of the perpetrator's DNA. In order to circumvent the challenges with standard recovery and analysis methods for touch DNA evidence, we reported previously the development of a 'smart analysis' single cell recovery and DNA analysis method that results in enhanced genetic analysis of touch DNA evidence. Here we use the smart single cell analysis method to recover probative single source profiles from individual and agglomerated cells from various touched objects and clothing items belonging to known donors. We then use the same approach for the detection of single source male donor DNA in simulated physical contact/assault mixture samples (i.e. male 'assailant' grabbing the wrist, neck or clothing from the female 'victim', or being in transient contact with bedding from the 'victim')

Read the affidavit on how investigators identified the Idaho killings suspect | CNN

Idaho officials have publicly released court documents -- including a probably cause affidavit -- in prosecutors' case against Bryan Kohberger, who faces four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary in the killings of four University of Idaho undergraduate students.

www.cnn.com

The Idaho state lab later located a single source of male DNA (suspect Profile) left on the button snap of the knife sheath.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Recovery of single source DNA profiles from mixtures by direct single cell subsampling and simplified micromanipulation​

Recovery of single source DNA profiles from mixtures by direct single cell subsampling and simplified micromanipulation

Deconvolution of forensic DNA mixtures into their individual component DNA (geno)types is of great investigative value, though often complex and diffi…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[10ofRods]

Yes it was found on the bed next to M & K who were found passed away in their bed together, as per report a few posts up thread.

I know the reports stated that discrete DNA belonging to BK was found on the snap button but seem to recall there were reports that there was barely any DNA or fibre on the sheath at all and it was a stroke of luck to find this tiny particle - maybe those reports were just hyperbole and drama included by the media as opposed to the truth. If they were true, then I would speculate it's almost impossible to carry something around and use it without it being covered in one's DNA.

Also, BK is not stupid and yet the sheath was there on the bed which is odd IMO if he did put such planning into this event. My personal speculation is that he didn't plan it much at all but other people say different.

There were never any reports about the size of the sample! Never anything but speculation that it was only a speck. The only thing said was that it was "single source DNA," which many people do not understand.

The reason forensic geneticists/anthropologists don't test an entire sheath is that to test leather requires some (minor) destruction of the item. That's almost never done one-sidedly. The prosecution and the defense both have a right to examine the intact article.

What they did was swab a use point, which means the place most likely to have epithelial (skin) DNA on it. That would be the snap. One DNA-bearing epithelial cell is about 17 microns. There were possibly thousands of them in the area around the snap.

To test the leather itself is a more extensive process - but I assume the defense may ask for that (but maybe not, if they already know it will just further prove it's BK's DNA on that sheath).

BK is not stupid, but he's not mentally acute at that moment in time. He is killing people with a knife. They are bleeding out, he doesn't want to linger, doesn't want their DNA on him or their blood on him.

He forgot his sheath.

It was not a "stroke of luck" to find it - its existence is highly probable and any forensic tool examiner knows this.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Recovery of single source DNA profiles from mixtures by direct single cell subsampling and simplified micromanipulation​

Recovery of single source DNA profiles from mixtures by direct single cell subsampling and simplified micromanipulation

Deconvolution of forensic DNA mixtures into their individual component DNA (geno)types is of great investigative value, though often complex and diffi…

www.sciencedirect.com

Fortunately, since the sheath was already single source, they didn't need to do this.

But it's great that this newer, faster forensic tool is available.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Fortunately, since the sheath was already single source, they didn't need to do this.

But it's great that this newer, faster forensic tool is available.

What do you mean by the sheath was already single source? Linky please.

 

[10ofRods]

Wait a sec. LE identified a single source of BK's DNA on the sheath. That doesn't mean it was the only DNA on the sheath. Only that they identified a single source of his DNA out of a mixture of however many other DNA sources were there.

Single source DNA profile recovery from single cells isolated from skin and fabric from touch DNA mixtures in mock physical assaults - PubMed

The ability to obtain DNA profiles from trace biological evidence is routinely demonstrated with so-called 'touch DNA evidence', which is generally perceived to be the result of DNA obtained from shed skin cells transferred from a donor's hands to an object or person during direct physical...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Single source DNA profile recovery from single cells isolated from skin and fabric from touch DNA mixtures in mock physical assaults​

In some instances involving transient contact between an assailant and victim, the victim's DNA may be found in such significant excess as to preclude the detection and typing of the perpetrator's DNA. In order to circumvent the challenges with standard recovery and analysis methods for touch DNA evidence, we reported previously the development of a 'smart analysis' single cell recovery and DNA analysis method that results in enhanced genetic analysis of touch DNA evidence. Here we use the smart single cell analysis method to recover probative single source profiles from individual and agglomerated cells from various touched objects and clothing items belonging to known donors. We then use the same approach for the detection of single source male donor DNA in simulated physical contact/assault mixture samples (i.e. male 'assailant' grabbing the wrist, neck or clothing from the female 'victim', or being in transient contact with bedding from the 'victim')

Read the affidavit on how investigators identified the Idaho killings suspect | CNN

Idaho officials have publicly released court documents -- including a probably cause affidavit -- in prosecutors' case against Bryan Kohberger, who faces four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary in the killings of four University of Idaho undergraduate students.

www.cnn.com

The Idaho state lab later located a single source of male DNA (suspect Profile) left on the button snap of the knife sheath.

I respectfully disagree. When a forensic source says "single source" DNA found on sheath, it means they took a number of swabs of the use point and found only ONE source.

There was no reconstruction out of several sources, because then the report would say "double source" or "multiple source."

ALL of the samples returned pointed to a single source (which means one person - at the time, of course, they had no clue who the person was).