4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

[Cool Cats]

BBM: Also, if BK was being careful about how he disposed of his rubbish after the murders as opposed to how he behaved in general prior to the murders (or maybe prior to any decision/ideation concerning committing these murders) then his reasoning for commencing and/or escalating the behaviour does not, IMO, necessarily need to make rational or logical sense no matter whether he worried or not about his dna possibly being found at the scene. The rationale may not be apparent to anyone thinking logically and with a removed perspective IMO. For instance I can speculate that carrying out careful disposal of his rubbish after Nov 13th (not just at this folk's place in PA but also back in Pullman)-if he did do this- it may have helped BK maintain an illusion or feeling of control over circumstances and even himself where he felt rather out of control. Worrying about the sheath might have served as a catalyst for such feelings. Then there is LE's announcement re white elantra in first week of December. I can imagine that such behaviour (if it occured) may have helped BK feel safer when faced with the unknown of How Much Do LE know? And also being faced with the unknown of his future at WSU at that time. It may not have objectively added anything to his safety but that is not the point if speculating along these lines. MOO and just speculation.
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Just bouncing off your post regarding BK's general behaviour.

On the subject of whether BK behaved like this in his life prior to Nov 13th, IMO we don't have enough information to say whether it was the norm for him or not to baggie up his rubbish and dispose of it, either in secret or more openly. I've read the MSM reports of neighbours re hearing vacuuming in the middle of the night but that doesn't tell me much. I haven't read any reports from past friends or colleagues at DeSales or WSU that include/mention him carefully bagging up his rubbish in his office for instance. Also haven't read anything along those lines from anyone interviewed back in PA. I would really be interested if anyone here has come across any reports about BK's rubbish disposing behaviour earlier in 2022 or in the years before he moved to Idaho. So as far as that line of reasoning goes it as much speculation as anything else at the moment as far as I'm concerned. MOO

Well put.

Needing illusion of control, sheath as catalyst, white elantra announcement making him worry about how much did LE know? Needing to feel safe.

Psychological and emotional reasons to do what he did post murders.

And what is his past behavior as it relates to his behavior in November/December?

Right, so far no mention of gloves or preoccupation with trash.

 

[NCWatcher]

You said it was based on 9 things and I'm just saying many of those 9 things aren't unusual at all in this individual. Everything I posted could be true and he could still be guilty. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. But using those things as the reason some are convinced he's guilty is what I'm objecting to. BK could absolutely be the murderer and yet, the same behaviors you outlined he could have been doing last year. JMO.

He's a night owl, so he's still dressed at 1:30 and doing chores. He's going through and separating trash for any number of reasons -- possibly drugs, possibly eating disorder (this is actually very typical ED behavior, though I haven't seen evidence he has one), possibly he doesn't want his parents to know something he's putting in the trash, etc. He's wearing gloves while digging through trash. I'd be concerned if he wasn't wearing gloves while digging through trash because that's just gross. None of this (even all of it together) paint a picture for me, given what we know about him. I think it's entirely possible that none of the above is related to the murders. MOO.

I think you're making some good points. While BK indeed may be guilty, we do run the risk of circular thinking, especially with access to information somewhat limited. Is doing X, Y, and/or Z suspicious? Maybe, maybe not. But if we know suspected murderer BK did X, Y, and Z that may tend to make those actions more suspicious. But what makes BK a suspected murderer? Well, in part it's because he did X, Y, and Z!
JMO

 

[jjleroche]

Well put.

Needing illusion of control, sheath as catalyst, white elantra announcement making him worry about how much did LE know? Needing to feel safe.

Psychological and emotional reasons to do what he did post murders.

And what is his past behavior as it relates to his behavior in November/December?

Right, so far no mention of gloves or preoccupation with trash.

I think we are unlikely to see any mention from anyone regarding the suspect having any preoccupation with trash prior to the murders. That's not to say however, that he didn't. Perhaps he did, and no-one else knew. He may have thought that people would think him somewhat strange if they knew he had a trash-sorting habit. As one of our esteemed sleuthers explained really well (threads ago - I'm still looking for the post) - she engages in just such behaviour, for very good reasons. It is also entirely possible that, if he is the perpetrator, he took up this habit after the murders, for self-protection purposes. Regarding the glove habit, there have been numerous posts regarding him shopping prior to the murders, wearing gloves. Shall hunt for these posts also, and re-post.

 

[rsd1200]

I do agree with the very valid opinion that there was no reason for Bryan to hide his DNA if he thought he may have left some on his sheath - because he would know LE could simply use his parent's DNA for comparison.

However, Bryan did not know for sure that LE had his DNA.

I think he took precautions with protecting his DNA not so much because he knew he left DNA behind, but just in case... especially in such a violent and chaotic crime scene. I doubt he factored in a familial match popping up, and nailing him.

He could have merely been taking precautions once he realized the sheath was missing and then began to wonder... Is it possible that I left DNA on it? Maybe he got a cut we aren't aware of, or maybe he was thinking there could be DNA under the fingernails of a victim(s).

<modsnip - no link from an approved source>

They didn't have the go-ahead to serve the warrant til after the familial DNA had come back, linking the DNA on the sheath, to BK's family member, and thus to BK (IIRC it was paternal DNA). LE had a line on him but needed more than just the car. Especially w/o a murder weapon, and BK having no prior violent crimes (or crimes at all IIRC). I don't think the car alone, nor the vehicle's proximity to the crime, could have gotten them a search warrant to go into his parent's home, and at night.

I can only imagine BK standing there, in the middle of the night, wearing latex gloves, and stuffing his garbage into zip lock bags, when they arrived. He is then not only told he has to give them a DNA swab, but also the clothing he had on. I bet his brain was spinning! How?!?! They were just a rinky-dink dept, in a small town. WTH happened?! Confusion sets in.

He'd applied, for the internship with LE stating he wanted to assist "rural law enforcement agencies with how to better collect and analyze technological data in public safety operations." . They rejected him. Makes me wonder if he wanted to sit back and enjoy watching LE try to solve his crime. I think he had little faith they'd ever catch him. He was just so darn smart.
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They bust in, at 1:30 a.m. and there's BK, awake, standing in the kitchen, wearing latex gloves, while separating his trash into zip lock bags. (This did clear up why the trash pulled from his parents' garbage bins, only recovered DNA from his family members and not BK himself.)

The two things that seemed of most interest, that they obtained, were his shoes and DNA. The size of the shoes, for comparison to any shoe impressions that might have been recovered at the scene, and the cheek swab was thought to be key to compare to the DNA found on the sheath for an absolute match.
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Monroe County Officials Share New Details About Idaho Murder Suspect's Arrest

The Monroe County District Attorney’s office sheds light on the Idaho murder suspect’s arrest after a search warrant is released. We’re learning more about the investigation of the Chestnuthill...

www.brctv13.com

Copy of released search and arrest warrants: Search warrants for Kohberger’s PA home unsealed

 

[SleuthyLou]

Someone above mentioned this could be normal behavior being up at 1:30 for him since neighbors in Pullman saw him as a night owl. Was he also seen as a night owl or taking out trash in the middle of the night prior to the murders?

Another reason for him being up late In Pennsylvania could be the time difference - that was only 9:30 Pacific time. Perhaps he stayed on the same time schedule.

IMO, the bagging of trash is a guilty behavior to hide DNA.

Anyone remember the Obsessive Compulsive Chef skit on SNL with Phil Hartman? That’s what this reminds me of — to lighten the mood.

 

[rsd1200]

<snip by RSD>

And what is his past behavior as it relates to his behavior in November/December?

Right, so far no mention of gloves or preoccupation with trash.

BIBM

Some of his students noticed changes in his demeanor afterward, but then, other folks said he was chatty about their thoughts on the murders, others say he got quiet when the topic was broached. The neighbor across the street from his parents said he helped her move some things around the house, just a day or so prior to his arrest.

Different people gave different versions of BK. Seems everyone had in common though, the thought that he was a bit different/odd/backward but not a soul, that I can recall of, has said they thought he'd be a danger to society.

I think the biggest change came after he moved from home to WSU, based only on what limited information we have available to us. I've wondered if stressors came with so much change, that it drove him to drop his facade.

I've also wondered if he staked out WSU as a place to go to school, based in part, on the location. Rural LE departments are seen as having fewer resources, and funds at their disposal. Put his plan in motion far from Penn. and family. Otherwise, why not closer? Univ of Penn offers a PhD in Criminology as well. For anyone who has never lived alone, or far away from family, it might be difficult at first, but for BK it may have been very overwhelming, and a catalyst.

 

[Kemug]

It seems to me that all of us here believe that BK is most likely guilty as charged. I wonder how that compares with the general population? And his family, who know him best? I believe that it would take quite a lot now to convince me otherwise.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

But LE had a million ways to get his DNA and he would have had to have known that.
They originally got it via his parents' rubbish.
He knew the possibilities, how could he not have?

Did he take the same pains in his apartment and in his office, his vehicle, his everything?
why did he not hide himself if the object of the exercise, in futility imo, was to occlude his own dNA from everything while still living in a shared home with his parents?

This is what I don't understand. It occurred to me that possibly BK was not trying to hide his DNA but mask his scent from any potential tracker dogs.

At the time he was arrested, he was aware that some DNA of the perpetrator had been potentially located and also that LE were seeking to speak to the driver of the white elantra. Also I think it had been published about the sneaker footprint and possible captures from nearby ring doorbells.

I guess he imagined that even if the police had his DNA they would have no idea how to link it to him - he had no idea that he was already in the frame and that LE would use his father's DNA. Unless there would be an appeal for mass testing which is rare I suppose he thought he was 'safe'. Again, he probably thought there are thousands of white elantras so that's not a problem either. His mobile phone was switched off, nobody saw him, no CCTV footage came out, no eyewitnesses (he didn't know about DM). He wasn't a friend of the household, had no known interactions or relationships with them that had been made public. Quite a lot of time had gone by. So, he thought he was off the hook unless his DNA came to the attention of the police through another route incidentally.

Maybe as he was using 'green leafy substance' and possible other substances, he thought it best to make it a permanent protocol to break up his garbage, spray it with detergent, ziploc it, and distribute it in small amounts far and wide so that it would never come to the attention of his own household and nobody would ever test it (or a dog would never scent it) for *other reasons* and then they'd be like OMG we have the killer's DNA here.

Or... maybe he was drug dealing? Sometimes street drug dealers put the 'thing' in a bag in a litter bin with some food wrappers and the buyer comes along a short while after and picks it back out of the bin. It's a street dealing technique. JMO MOO

 

[Kemug]

I think the biggest change came after he moved from home to WSU, based only on what limited information we have available to us. I've wondered if stressors came with so much change, that it drove him to drop his facade.

Or perhaps it was the other way round - maybe he "couldn't wait" to get away from home, be his own person, and (tragically) do whatever he wanted

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Right. He knew they could get it via his parent's rubbish so he had to keep his DNA out of it.

For them to get DNA from his apartment or office or car they needed probable cause to search those places. They do not need probable cause to search through a person's trash, thus he had to keep his DNA out of it.

He didn't know for sure they would link his dad's DNA to an online genetic testing company. Once they did, they had enough probable cause for their Search Warrants, enough probable cause to do a buccal swab on him.

Trash DNA led to his arrest, thus, he was keeping his trash in baggies and dumping it at the neighbors.

2 Cents

I agree with you -but- if he *knew* they could get his DNA via his parents' trash, to the extent that he'd started bagging his personal waste... then he already knew, or strongly suspected, he was in the crosshairs. Hence he was taking action.

But it makes no sense because if you thought you were at that level of focus it could only be a hours or days at the most before you're apprehended. It wasn't a secret that he was at his parents so he wasn't in hiding.

Was he just playing a game to see how long he could eek the time out whilst knowing his capture was totally inevitable? Why didn't he just use a different vehicle and leave town, go somewhere remote.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Maybe as he was using 'green leafy substance' and possible other substances, he thought it best to make it a permanent protocol to break up his garbage, spray it with detergent, ziploc it, and distribute it in small amounts far and wide so that it would never come to the attention of his own household and nobody would ever test it (or a dog would never scent it) for *other reasons* and then they'd be like OMG we have the killer's DNA here.

This is what I don't understand. It occurred to me that possibly BK was not trying to hide his DNA but mask his scent from any potential tracker dogs.

I'm thinking BK is educated enough to know how a K9 track works.
Even if a dog had been used immediately after the murders, the dog doesn't retain or have a memory of that scent and can't later pick out his garbage.
Scent hounds need an object that retains the odors of the person being looked for and they usually also have a starting point from which to search/follow a scent.

 

[CSIDreamer]

A normal person acting like this is probably just obsessive compulsive, or maybe a bit eccentric. But a quadruple murder suspect who left behind a sheath with possible DNA on it is going to go to great lengths to take control of the situation and hide his DNA.

Bryan is not a normal person. Normal people don't have LE following them across the Country, doing surveillance on them for days at their home, picking through their trash and running their DNA.

Normal people don't have a motive to hide their DNA but Bryan did, and "he was right."

LE WAS stalking him and trying to get his DNA.

Just my take on it.

LE going through his trash specifically looking for his DNA convinces me he was trying to hide his DNA.

He had a MOTIVE to hide it, a normal person (not arrested for quadruple homicide) would lack this motive.

But why sort through the trash? Why not just separate your trash from the beginning? I'm kind of talking out loud, so none of this is directed at you, just the circumstances.

The only people I've seen go through trash are dumpster divers and hoarders.

And why baggies? Why not a grocery store bag or something? Is there something about needing to seal the trash better? My brain is picturing him making packets of trash.

Muddled morning musings. JMO

 

[Helechawagirl]

But why sort through the trash? Why not just separate your trash from the beginning? I'm kind of talking out loud, so none of this is directed at you, just the circumstances.

The only people I've seen go through trash are dumpster divers and hoarders.

And why baggies? Why not a grocery store bag or something? Is there something about needing to seal the trash better? My brain is picturing him making packets of trash.

Muddled morning musings. JMO

Apparently. Putting things in baggies will decompose them faster.

 

[jepop]

I think he took precautions with protecting his DNA not so much because he knew he left DNA behind, but just in case... especially in such a violent and chaotic crime scene. I doubt he factored in a familial match popping up, and nailing him.

He could have merely been taking precautions once he realized the sheath was missing and then began to wonder... Is it possible that I left DNA on it? Maybe he got a cut we aren't aware of, or maybe he was thinking there could be DNA under the fingernails of a victim(s).

<modsnip - no link from an approved source>

They didn't have the go-ahead to serve the warrant til after the familial DNA had come back...[snipped for focus]... I don't think the car alone, nor the vehicle's proximity to the crime, could have gotten them a search warrant to go into his parent's home, and at night.

He'd applied, for the internship with LE stating he wanted to assist "rural law enforcement agencies with how to better collect and analyze technological data in public safety operations." . They rejected him. Makes me wonder if he wanted to sit back and enjoy watching LE try to solve his crime. I think he had little faith they'd ever catch him. He was just so darn smart.

unsealed

BBM: Agree with your second paragraph and the 'just in case' line of thinking.It makes sense to me to speculate that the alleged killer would have been concerned about the dna implications of forgetting the sheath. Although, to my mind, he may well have attempted to shed and pick up as little as possible at the scene and may have cleaned his sheath, I stil imagine he would have been worried about what might be found on it. Obviously I'm not one of those who tends towards the theory that the sheath was left deliberately. MOO.

Just on a couple of other points in your post I've bolded.

<modsnip - response to quoted post was removed, as the quoted post was removed>

- I've pointed out in previous posts the application for search warrant for the BK residence in IDaho included a supplemental disclosure re the dna test result which culminated in the judge granting that search warrant irrespective of the dna test result, whilst also noting that this in no way indicated that the dna test result was exculpatory. MOO based on below;
See p6 and pp14-15 of below for Supplemental Disclosure re dna test for Idaho warrant.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/search%20warrant%20for%20bryan%20kohberger%20apartment/ddb059f6cc8e24c1/full.pdf

Also my prior post about this earlier up thread

4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

My understanding is they collected DNA after both arrived back in PA. The airplane that transported BCK to Idaho had made an earlier trip from PA to Moscow/Pullman regional airport. MOO This was to transport DNA evidence. The genetic link was the “pivitol” evidence for issuing arrest warrant...

www.websleuths.com

I just had a look at the applications for the PA search warrants on the PA Court web page and note that the dna test result section of the PCA is NOT included in the applications. IOWs, the dna test result wasn't necessary for the establishment of probable cause for the issue of the PA search warrants IMO.

MOO based on pp10-27 of the attached Exhibit A which appears to be a tailored version of the PCA (as presented to the Judge in Idaho) for presentation to the PA judge. See page 27 especially for the affiants' request for the judge to find for probable cause.

https://www.pacourts.us/Storage/media/pdfs/20230228/185614-dec.29,2022-applicationforsearchwarrantandauthorization.pdf

-Re the internship mentioned in the PCA which BK applied for in the fall as per PCA). I'm not sure we have heard whether or not he ever got a rejection on that one. He applied for it in the fall (so sept-to end Nov) and Pullman PD have not as far as I know revealed the outcome of that application process. We don't even know in what month that application was submitted (ie Sept, Oct or Nov). MOO

EBM: extended quote in third quote box to include the sentence "They didn't have the go-ahead to serve the warrant til after the familial DNA had come back "...

 

[Spec-u-lator]

But LE had a million ways to get his DNA and he would have had to have known that.
They originally got it via his parents' rubbish.
He knew the possibilities, how could he not have?

Did he take the same pains in his apartment and in his office, his vehicle, his everything?
why did he not hide himself if the object of the exercise, in futility imo, was to occlude his own dNA from everything while still living in a shared home with his parents?

BK (if he is the killer) remained in WA for 4 weeks after the murders, hiding in plain sight, IMO. He continued to live in his apartment, go to class, possibly his office, and possibly drive his car. Yes, his DNA from touch and fingerprints would certainly be found in those places, but LE would need a warrant to enter his apartment, car, or office to collect it. I am pretty sure a warrant would be needed for his classrooms and even the classroom trashcan, MOO. Water bottles in his locked car would be the safest place to keep them, but ultimately, he'd want to remove them discreetly.

IMO, cleaning the interior spaces of the car and apartment would be a priority, not so much to get rid of HIS DNA, which LE would expect to find, but to hopefully remove any victim DNA that may have transferred. Any rags or wipes, vacuum detritus, etc., would need to be carefully disposed of, with no witnesses, and certainly not at the apartment or campus communal trash cans. According to the apartment inventory, only a handful of evidence samples were collected for DNA analysis, suggesting, IMOO, that the apartment had been cleaned pretty well during the 4 weeks after the murders and before the road trip.

The clothing he wore, and perhaps the murder weapon would certainly need disposal, but that is a whole different realm of speculation than the theory of using baggies to transport and dispose of any other DNA related items that could potentially link BK to the crime. MOO.

He knew LE had the sheath and eventually he knew they were trying to identify his car. As other WSers have pointed out, if BK was the killer, he had a motive for handling his trash disposal in a much different way than most people.

 

[Justice101]

BK (if he is the killer) remained in WA for 4 weeks after the murders, hiding in plain sight, IMO. He continued to live in his apartment, go to class, possibly his office, and possibly drive his car. Yes, his DNA from touch and fingerprints would certainly be found in those places, but LE would need a warrant to enter his apartment, car, or office to collect it. I am pretty sure a warrant would be needed for his classrooms and even the classroom trashcan, MOO. Water bottles in his locked car would be the safest place to keep them, but ultimately, he'd want to remove them discreetly.

IMO, cleaning the interior spaces of the car and apartment would be a priority, not so much to get rid of HIS DNA, which LE would expect to find, but to hopefully remove any victim DNA that may have transferred. Any rags or wipes, vacuum detritus, etc., would need to be carefully disposed of, with no witnesses, and certainly not at the apartment or campus communal trash cans. According to the apartment inventory, only a handful of evidence samples were collected for DNA analysis, suggesting, IMOO, that the apartment had been cleaned pretty well during the 4 weeks after the murders and before the road trip.

The clothing he wore, and perhaps the murder weapon would certainly need disposal, but that is a whole different realm of speculation than the theory of using baggies to transport and dispose of any other DNA related items that could potentially link BK to the crime. MOO.

He knew LE had the sheath and eventually he knew they were trying to identify his car. As other WSers have pointed out, if BK was the killer, he had a motive for handling his trash disposal in a much different way than most people.

Well said.

By the time he got to PA, he was routinely getting rid of DNA evidence and it was becoming a habit IMO

 

[jepop]

Right. He knew they could get it via his parent's rubbish so he had to keep his DNA out of it.

For them to get DNA from his apartment or office or car they needed probable cause to search those places. They do not need probable cause to search through a person's trash, thus he had to keep his DNA out of it.

He didn't know for sure they would link his dad's DNA to an online genetic testing company. Once they did, they had enough probable cause for their Search Warrants, enough probable cause to do a buccal swab on him.

Trash DNA led to his arrest, thus, he was keeping his trash in baggies and dumping it at the neighbors.

2 Cents

I think in the case of both search warrants when you read the applications for those warrants, the trash dna did not end up being necessary for the execution of either. MOO

4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

BBM: Also, if BK was being careful about how he disposed of his rubbish after the murders as opposed to how he behaved in general prior to the murders (or maybe prior to any decision/ideation concerning committing these murders) then his reasoning for commencing and/or escalating the behaviour...

www.websleuths.com

 

[U.N. Known]

who knows why BK was hiding his garbage.

That's just it, we don't know that he was attempting to hide his garbage. People have assumed and gone with that idea, but IMO that doesn't make sense. As someone else posted, unless the parents' DNA was also hidden, it would be pointless for him to hide his. And theirs wasn't hidden.

I think the same reasoning is out there with BK putting trash in the neighbor's bin. While I've never put my trash in a neighbor's bin, it seems that for some people this is a "done" thing and is not a big deal. Even if it wasn't a regular occurrence, using the neighbor's bin wouldn't accomplish that goal of hiding the personal trash/DNA.

If BK thought the police were watching him discard trash, he'd know they would see him walking to the neighbor's bin. By the same token, since trash doesn't need a warrant, if they saw him put things in the neighbor's bin, he'd know they could just go there and get it.

 

[U.N. Known]

It seems to me that all of us here believe that BK is most likely guilty as charged. I wonder how that compares with the general population? And his family, who know him best? I believe that it would take quite a lot now to convince me otherwise.

I am not-so-patiently waiting to learn the results of the items seized during searches. However, if not for the DNA on the sheath, I'd lean toward not guilty. The DNA on the sheath has me thinking involved or framed for whatever reason (only based on what we have been told). I can't work out coincidence on that one.

If all there is is what we currently know (including no murder weapon), I'd have a hard time convicting if the defense has a reasonable explanation of how that sheath got there with his DNA on it. However, if there is any evidence of the victims on any of BK's property, I'd have a very hard time believing he wasn't responsible.

There are still so many oddities about that night that I'd like explained regardless.

 

[maskedwoman]

How does him doing it already convince you it was to hide DNA though? If anything, that would convince me it's a personal quirk if he was doing it before.



But we already know from earlier reports published in MSM that according to his neighbors in Pullman, he's a night owl and does his cleaning at night.



#5 opens many possibilities, not just that there is something he's hiding from LE. One of those possibilities is an eating disorder. I'm not saying he has one, but I don't think it's accurate to say the only reason to hide food wrappers and leftovers is to hide something from LE.



The fact that he's fully dressed at 1:30 am is the least suspicious part of this, IMO, given that we know he's a night owl.



Anyone digging through trash should be wearing gloves.

The above is MOO.

I believe what OP meant was he had already been seen doing this while under surveillance in PA. Not that it was something he already was known to do before the murders took place. Link is below where he was seen doing this. I'm usually terrible at finding links for stuff later on, so imaginary fist bump for me. LOL

Idaho murders: Suspect threw out trash in neighbors' bins, source says

Investigators observed the Idaho quadruple murder suspect throwing out garbage into neighboring trash bins in the middle of the night as they surveilled him.

abc7ny.com

Does anyone recall reading or hearing that he did this while in Pullman? I don't, but that doesn't mean much. LOL I have a vague memory that they weren't able to obtain his trash in Pullman, but I can't swear to it. MOOooo