4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 76

[BeginnerSleuther]

RBBM

I don't think anyone here is arguing the fact that defense will likely attempt to question DM or her recollection.

Actually, there were posters saying that the 7 hours before the 911 call wasn't on trial and shouldn't be cross-examined. That 7 hours plays into what I was saying.

No offense but if my defense attempted to suggest that DM was hallucinating, I'd be concerned. ICBW but it seems a very weak argument. I realize essentially you're saying the defense will do it's job in pecking away at whatever they can. It's just that you have mentioned hallucinations several times.

I actually didn't say she was hallucinating. I said they would question if she was experiencing a hypnopompic or hypnogogic hallucination. You shared your story that you saw someone in your hallway, but you didn't believe it was real. THAT's what a hypopompic hallucination is. Every single one of us has experienced it. It's actually very common. It's not psychosis or anything else that's abnormal or would suggest mental illness. All it means, in layman's terms (and this is a very simplistic explanation), is dreaming while you're awake because your brain hasn't fullen woken up. Why would that be a weak argument for a defense in this case where the only living witness didn't call 911 for 7 hours?

Of course they will likely go down the "are you sure you saw what you say you saw" road.

Then why are you saying that's a weak argument? That's all a hypopompic hallucination is. Maybe I shouldn't have used the medical term for it and just said "are you sure you weren't half asleep?"

MOO.

 

[Boxer]

Per the PCA, I believe they were already in bed and DM was woken up at 4 am. Also, that plays into the cross-examination as well. She was woken up, saw something scary, and went back to bed. Did she think she was dreaming? And if so, how does she know it wasn't a dream? I mean, we know there were murders, but her eyewitness account, the shadowy figure? Was there a moment where she was having what's called a hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucination? These are fairly common in everyone when they're woken up from sleep or when they're falling asleep, but something keeps them awake. How reliable is her description of bushy brows?

I think this will be a rich line of questioning for the defense. But as I said before, I don't think DM adds that much to the prosecution's case and IMO, I think her testimony is more risky than not.

Edited to change 3 am to 4 am

MOO.

MOO she lived in a party house, was woken up or was otherwise dusturbed by noise, told people be quiet, saw a weird dude, got scared, decided after it was quiet to take it up with roommates in the morning, slept late on Sunday.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Maybe testifying and finally being able to tell her story will help DM because it will stop so much of the rumor mill? idk, just a thought. In the absence of fact, a lot of people will fill that void. There are legitimate questions about what happened that night, and unfortunately for DM and BF, they're part of the truth that has to come out. imo jmo it might actually be a relief to have it told, and they can't do that right now. idk icbw but it seems like it would help to tell it.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

MOO she lived in a party house, was woken up or was otherwise dusturbed by noise, told people be quiet, saw a weird dude, got scared, decided after it was quiet to take it up with roommates in the morning, slept late on Sunday.

Ok, but you're assuming. This is why her testimony about this is fair game in court.

 

[Cool Cats]

MOO she lived in a party house, was woken up or was otherwise dusturbed by noise, told people be quiet, saw a weird dude, got scared, decided after it was quiet to take it up with roommates in the morning, slept late on Sunday.

Your post reminds me of this:

"....and mistook the man who police believe to be the killer as a guest leaving the property."

Delayed Idaho murders 911 call finally explained

It took eight hours for the roommates of the slain students to call the police, but a new report offers an explanation as to why the alarm wasn't raised sooner.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Bogbacal2]

Was thinking about BK and when he left the house-something are him haul “asx“ out of there. I thought maybe he was in disbelief of the crime(s) he “presumably” just committed. I have another thought, again, imoo. If DM did call the other roommates after hearing noises (crying, dog barking, commotion) that would have, imo, spooked BK to hear phones ringing, beeping…just a thought. I don’t remember, I don’t think it is in the statement that DM called the roommates. I’ll have to find the source unless someone remembers. I have way too many documents!

 

[10ofRods]

Actually, there were posters saying that the 7 hours before the 911 call wasn't on trial and shouldn't be cross-examined. That 7 hours plays into what I was saying.



I actually didn't say she was hallucinating. I said they would question if she was experiencing a hypnopompic or hypnogogic hallucination. You shared your story that you saw someone in your hallway, but you didn't believe it was real. THAT's what a hypopompic hallucination is. Every single one of us has experienced it. It's actually very common. It's not psychosis or anything else that's abnormal or would suggest mental illness. All it means, in layman's terms (and this is a very simplistic explanation), is dreaming while you're awake because your brain hasn't fullen woken up. Why would that be a weak argument for a defense in this case where the only living witness didn't call 911 for 7 hours?



Then why are you saying that's a weak argument? That's all a hypopompic hallucination is. Maybe I shouldn't have used the medical term for it and just said "are you sure you weren't half asleep?"

MOO.

I've never seen anyone in my house while half-asleep (nor anyplace else nor had any other kind of hallucination). Neither hypnopompic nor hypnogogic.

Do you have a citation for the 100% of us have had this? Are you including auditory misfiring as well?

How often does everyone here have these? Truly curious, as my brief sample of 10 people today produced no results (no one has had a hypnopompic or hypnogogic visual hallucination - and 6 of the people are psychiatrists or psychiatric nurses who know exactly what it is; the rest of the sample are biologists and anthropologists).

I have had hypnogogic auditory sensations, but my neurologist says they are not visual hallucinations and easily distinguished from other kinds of false sensation (especially since I've never mistaken the sounds for anything real). Most people have had that falling sensation, but again, psychiatrists and neurologists do not classify that brief twitch of feeling as if one's falling as a visual hallucination. It's proprioceptive instead. Sometimes called kinetic.

Visual hallucinations, I always thought, were pretty rare outside of neuropathology. I sure hope that most of us haven't had visual hallucinations while falling asleep or waking up - and if someone has, I think they ought to tell their doctor. IMO.

Hypnagogic Hallucination - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

According to that article, actual visual hallucinations produced in relationship to either sleep state are quite serious and often indicative of dementia or other neuropathology. Kinetic sensations or auditory sensations are more common and not so serious, but if DM had visual hallucinations, she needs to be worked up!

IMO. OTOH, people with narcolepsy have a strong tendency to visual hallucinations. I personally think DM's testimony is so marginal to this case, that dragging her through some kind of assessment for a hallucination-producing disorder is unwarranted.

IMO.

 

[whiterhino]

Actually, there were posters saying that the 7 hours before the 911 call wasn't on trial and shouldn't be cross-examined. That 7 hours plays into what I was saying.

I actually didn't say she was hallucinating. I said they would question if she was experiencing a hypnopompic or hypnogogic hallucination. You shared your story that you saw someone in your hallway, but you didn't believe it was real. THAT's what a hypopompic hallucination is. Every single one of us has experienced it. It's actually very common. It's not psychosis or anything else that's abnormal or would suggest mental illness. All it means, in layman's terms (and this is a very simplistic explanation), is dreaming while you're awake because your brain hasn't fullen woken up. Why would that be a weak argument for a defense in this case where the only living witness didn't call 911 for 7 hours?

Then why are you saying that's a weak argument? That's all a hypopompic hallucination is. Maybe I shouldn't have used the medical term for it and just said "are you sure you weren't half asleep?"

MOO.

BBM

I was not aware of these posts and arguments.

I am aware that there are different definitions for both terms but it's also the same thing for the purpose of this "discussion". When I searched your username and the term "hallucination" to fact check, just to be certain, there seems to be another post result from different thread also making the suggestion of hallucination so yes, you have used that term several times.

I never said I didn't believe what I saw to be real. I said I didn't and still do not know for certain what I saw that night. I know I saw a person. Whether they were lurking and whether it was the man arrested for lurking, I cannot say for sure.

Because I am stating my opinion. IMO it is a weak line of questioning to go down the road of trying to cast doubt over DMs' recollection when we consider all the other evidence. Overall, of course it absolutely makes sense for defense to question it! Reasonable doubt.

As it stands the way I see it, any attempt to question what DM saw is only going to solidify and bolster the other evidence as well as placing BK in certain areas of the home at certain times as it would (I assume) align with phone activity, foot prints etc. This bodes well for prosecution but not so much for the defense.

JMO. ICBW.

 

[schooling]

Your post reminds me of this:

"....and mistook the man who police believe to be the killer as a guest leaving the property."

Delayed Idaho murders 911 call finally explained

It took eight hours for the roommates of the slain students to call the police, but a new report offers an explanation as to why the alarm wasn't raised sooner.

www.newsweek.com

NewsNation (and Newsweek) continues to use early Reddit posts (in the week following the murders) as their 'anonymous' sources. They are literally lifting exact words off of old posts.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Was thinking about BK and when he left the house-something are him haul “asx“ out of there. I thought maybe he was in disbelief of the crime(s) he “presumably” just committed. I have another thought, again, imoo. If DM did call the other roommates after hearing noises (crying, dog barking, commotion) that would have, imo, spooked BK to hear phones ringing, beeping…just a thought. I don’t remember, I don’t think it is in the statement that DM called the roommates. I’ll have to find the source unless someone remembers. I have way too many documents!

BBM

Family of Ethan Chapin question why Dylan Mortensen didn't call cops

An account believed to belong to Ethan's sister-in-law made several posts online before the arrest affidavit was unsealed for suspected quadruple killer Bryan Kohberger.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Actually, there were posters saying that the 7 hours before the 911 call wasn't on trial and shouldn't be cross-examined. That 7 hours plays into what I was saying.

DM is not on trial - but everything that happened that night must be examined, including what happened after the murders. The state of Idaho may execute BK; it seems reasonable that all of the evidence should be presented, and that would include everything the living victims heard, saw, smelled, did, etc. not to prosecute DM & BF but to put into perspective everything that happened jmo imo. Witnesses testify - it's a thing. imo jmo.

 

[Cool Cats]

NewsNation (and Newsweek) continues to use early Reddit posts (in the week following the murders) as their 'anonymous' sources. They are literally lifting exact words off of old posts.

Yup.

Consider the "source."

Which is why I don't (as of now) believe that BK asked:

"Was anyone else arrested?"

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think that it’s extremely likely that DM, though startled, and maybe frightened, talked herself into thinking that she was being silly, and that there wasn’t anything really to be afraid of. I know exactly how that works; I did it myself in a situation that involved an attempted break-in.

well, you may well be right, but I won't and can't assume what she was thinking. Really, though, imo it's not about either of us and our opinions or even about DM. It's about presenting evidence in court, competently, in pursuit of justice. This isn't about DM; it's about the story she has to tell that is essential to what happened that night. jmo imo

 

[al66pine]

"Bushy," Depending on Person Describing or Being Described?

And I agree his eyebrows don't look "bushy" but to a 20 year old scared young woman trying to explain the prominent brow she saw....

snipped for focus. @10ofRods Yes, saying "prominent brow ridge" would be more accurate, and different ppl would describe BK's features differently.

Just generalizing now, but imo in Moscow ID, most men a UI student (like DM living a block off campus) encounters day-in and day-out are likely uni-age. And many who have what the gen pop would characterize as semi B-B or full-on B-B, likely groom (i.e., tweeze, laminate, wax, trim, or razor) their brows, for a less bristly effect. So to her, likely BK seemed to have BB.

In describing the man she saw as having B-B, I doubt if DM was was ranking him w B-B's topping the worldwide chart,* but jmo.

And she did not have the benefit of @10ofRods classes. (wink)

________________________________________
* I recall early post-arrest discussion here about whether BK's brows merited him a place on the Bushy Brows Scale, w some ppl arguing against it, because BK's seem unremarkable compared to actor-writer Eugene Levy, producer-director Martin Scorsese, or Andy Rooney (RIP), curmudgeon of CBS 60 Minutes, and others topping the B-B chart, most of whom are up-there, say, pushing traditional retirement age or beyond.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I've never seen anyone in my house while half-asleep (nor anyplace else nor had any other kind of hallucination). Neither hypnopompic nor hypnogogic.

Do you have a citation for the 100% of us have had this? Are you including auditory misfiring as well?

How often does everyone here have these? Truly curious, as my brief sample of 10 people today produced no results (no one has had a hypnopompic or hypnogogic visual hallucination - and 6 of the people are psychiatrists or psychiatric nurses who know exactly what it is; the rest of the sample are biologists and anthropologists).

I have had hypnogogic auditory sensations, but my neurologist says they are not visual hallucinations and easily distinguished from other kinds of false sensation (especially since I've never mistaken the sounds for anything real). Most people have had that falling sensation, but again, psychiatrists and neurologists do not classify that brief twitch of feeling as if one's falling as a visual hallucination. It's proprioceptive instead. Sometimes called kinetic.

Visual hallucinations, I always thought, were pretty rare outside of neuropathology. I sure hope that most of us haven't had visual hallucinations while falling asleep or waking up - and if someone has, I think they ought to tell their doctor. IMO.

Hypnagogic Hallucination - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

According to that article, actual visual hallucinations produced in relationship to either sleep state are quite serious and often indicative of dementia or other neuropathology. Kinetic sensations or auditory sensations are more common and not so serious, but if DM had visual hallucinations, she needs to be worked up!

IMO. OTOH, people with narcolepsy have a strong tendency to visual hallucinations. I personally think DM's testimony is so marginal to this case, that dragging her through some kind of assessment for a hallucination-producing disorder is unwarranted.

IMO.

No, they are not related to dementia. Even the article you cited doesn't make that case. IT says complex nocturnal hallucinations are related to LBD, which is a known scientific fact. Hypnopompic and hypogogic hallucinations are not. Both of these are perfectly benign in most people and it's exactly why two posters on this thread both said they awoke to something unusual and immediately thought they were imagining it - because it's that common that you could imagine something just as you're waking.

A hallucination is just a sensory perception and while yes, if you're experiencing EITHER auditory or visual hallucinations, you should tell your doctor, imaging things as you wake up or as you're falling asleep is not related to any kind of health or mental illness the vast majority of the time.

Regardless, this is now off topic; my point is that this is a very real and valid line of questioning on the stand.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

To clarify ...

While it is true that members do not need to provide a link every single time to something that is common knowledge, IF a member requests a link, it is WS policy and common courtesy to provide one.

ETA: Some posts have been removed due to bickering. We are always fortunate to have Verified members, and NOBODY wants to be responsible for driving a verified member away from Websleuths. If you disagree with a Verified member, do so politely or not at all or there will be a loss of posting privileges.

 

[Sundog]

Does anyone else remember that trash was flown from PA back on a plane to ID? If you can point me in the right direction with a link, I'd appreciate it. My Google search turned up nothing about the plane (only that they collected BK's dad trash) and I'm trying to make sense of it because it seems very bizarre to me.

MOO.

Speculation about a state of PA plane flying to Boise, Idaho where the state crime lab is located was discussed in early January on thread #50, on January 4th, 2023. I am not sure if it was ever verified, but do remember the discussion.

Edited to delete post number on thread #50 and to add date of posts when this was discussed.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

MOO It doesn't matter why she got up late unless you think she had something to do with the murders.

IMO, it matters a lot. Was she asleep, thinking everything was cool, or was she awake and scared? If she was awake, what else did she hear? Did she hear him leave? Did she hear anyone else enter the house? Did anyone else have access to the home? Was the front door open? Did she hear her other roommate? When she woke up, did she think she had a bad dream the night before or was she aware and thought it was a party guest? Did she immediately go upstairs? If not, why did she call friends first?

We have a pretty good idea what the answers to these questions are just from our own assumptions, but IMO, the defense will want this to all be entered into the record.

It boils down to that she saw a tallish guy dressed in black walk by her door, he had a mask and bushy eyebrows, a latent foot print was found that corroborated her statement.

MOO It's not an ID, but does not exclude BK.

I have never known an eyewitness in any case to not have their testimony cross-examined and their memory and/or the events leading up to what they witnessed questioned.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Speculation about a state of PA plane flying to Boise, Idaho where the state crime lab is located was discussed in early January on thread #50, on January 4th, 2023. I am not sure if it was ever verified, but do remember the discussion.

Edited to delete post number on thread #50 and to add date of posts when this was discussed.

Thank you! I didn't keep up with all the discussion. I couldn't find anything in MSM after searching, so going to assume this is all just speculative. It doesn't make sense to me regardless.

MOO.

 

[Sillybilly]

Thank you! I didn't keep up with all the discussion. I couldn't find anything in MSM after searching, so going to assume this is all just speculative. It doesn't make sense to me regardless.

MOO.

This is the post other members are referencing:

ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 50

What time tonight will the BK transport flight arrive in Moscow, ID?

www.websleuths.com

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

This is the post other members are referencing:

ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 50

What time tonight will the BK transport flight arrive in Moscow, ID?

www.websleuths.com

Thank you! Appreciate it.