4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[Sister Golden Hair]

If he used bleach it should have taken the colour out of the upholstery etc … which should be very obvious …. which would scream guilty …. That he tried to clean it … the same if he washed his clothing in bleach….

(Personally I think the clothing has been dumped somewhere … and was not the ”dark clothing” found by the Police ….. unless he really did want to be caught! )

Police could prove change in the colour of upholstery (from bleach) if they were wearing body cam at the traffic stop prior to November 13….

I am not convinced that the stabbing didn’t cause major bleeding … IMO stabbing four people with such a large knife would increase the chance of hitting a major artery …. (IMOooooo the family have been told that there was no suffering / bleeding etc to spare them the whole truth, not an actual lie, as it would have been quick,with unconsciousness prior)

I also think one person was still alive, possibly only just alive, (also MOO) when he left… the person the roommate heard crying …

I also think the fact they have the car “speeding off”, could mean that he wasn’t as careful as he may have planned, in eliminating contamination of the car with blood ….there may have been an element of panic … causing blood transfer….

I know health professionals use bleach to clean up blood, but that is because the bleach kills viruses in the blood like HIV etc … it doesn’t take the blood away or make it disappear … it just decontaminates it … IMO

I am not defending BK in any way … I am just wondering what item could possibly be in his car that would classify as exculpatory evidence??

All MOO

All great points. My first thought when I read the motion to compel and saw the Elantra and exculpatory evidence was "there was no blood in the car", too. IDK how that could be possible if BK did the deeds, just based on what LE described.

Cop on Idaho Murders Case Details Bloody Scene in Court Docs

Details redacted from the affidavit filed in Idaho were revealed in documents unsealed in Washington State.

www.insideedition.com

 

[SLouTh]

Okay - so why do you think it's not possible? Can you run through your own scenario?

I have alluded to some of it in my last post ….

I truely believe there would have been arterial bleeding at the scene ….even venous bleeding can be very difficult to stop …. And is very messy…

Panic when leaving the scene …. Car speeding off …. If a murderer was going to premeditate a murder wouldn’t one try and leave the scene calmly???? Like a “Sunday afternoon drive” so as not to cause suspicion of his car being seen, or captured on CCTV speeding off….???
Panic could have caused unexpected contamination in the car ….

In order to remove all trace of blood from the car, he would have had to literally pull it apart, to clean every crevice etc …. Pull seats out pull door panels out etc … and if he did do that I hope they have witnesses…

Personally I don’t think Police would withhold budget, on a quadruple murder of 4 people in their prime, for the lab to pull that car completely apart and test any suspicious substance …. But JMO

Personally, I find it disgusting that officials are saying that the cost of the investigation is at the expense of Moscow infrastructure …

All IMO

 

[U.N. Known]

And there’s a huge trap, I think, for someone who tries to argue that ‘no blood in the car means he didn’t do it.’ To put that over, you have to really emphasize how horrifically bloody the crime scene was, and I’m not at all sure that’s a good strategy for the defense.

When looked at that way, IMO that may not be a good strategy, but it may not be so bad either. If the jury is shown photos of a horrifically bloody crime scene the jury they may be like many and expect that a lot of blood was on the killer and by transfer in the car. If they are expecting blood evidence in the car and there isn't any that could infuse some doubt.

 

[Boxer]

And this…

On June 27, Kohberger, his defense and the prosecution will be present for a motion hearing to compel the prosecution to hand over pieces of evidence the defense believes they are withholding. Defense attorneys said in their motion to compel discovery that they believe there is exculpatory evidence, meaning evidence that could absolve Kohberger of guilt, in his car, his parents' home and other unspecified reports and documents. The prosecution responded, claiming they have given the defense all the evidence they have.

What's next for Bryan Kohberger, the man accused of murdering 4 Idaho students?

His trial is set for Oct. 2, but that could always be pushed back. Meanwhile, more hearings are set for the month of June.

www.ktvb.com

I would love to know what is meant by this …. Especially “in his car” …..

Or is it that the defence didn’t find any blood evidence in his car???? Which doesn’t seem possible if he is guilty …

It will be interesting to see if any more information comes to light about this on June 27??

IMO

He had almost two months to clean his car.
MOO Lack of blood evidence there seems meaningless.

 

[Chloegirl]

And there’s a huge trap, I think, for someone who tries to argue that ‘no blood in the car means he didn’t do it.’ To put that over, you have to really emphasize how horrifically bloody the crime scene was, and I’m not at all sure that’s a good strategy for the defense.

MOO

Okay, I'll bite. What shows me guilt, (completely outside of a courtroom) are the extreme circumstances and the many, many, many behaviors.

Not just casing the house (alleged), being in the area, time of day, supposed knife purchase, "calling card" sheath, car cleaning/ potential evidence left behind, returning to the scene the next morning, circuitous route back to Pullman, general argumentative behavior, possibly breaking and entering a colleague's home and then helping her set up security cameras (allegedly), being pulled over regularly, attitudes towards women, and I could go on and on.

This is not a preponderance of evidence (YET) but it's starting to be quite more than a molehill, and we don't even have 1/100th of the 20k pieces of evidence or 51 terabytes of data. We are 6 months into probably a 3-year process. This is all the tip of the iceberg. IMO.

Ps. Absolutely no one has mentioned the fact that he would likely have driven past the police station on his way out of town.

 

[SLouTh]

Okay, I'll bite. What shows me guilt, (completely outside of a courtroom) are the extreme circumstances and the many, many, many behaviors.

Not just casing the house (alleged), being in the area, time of day, supposed knife purchase, "calling card" sheath, car cleaning/ potential evidence left behind, returning to the scene the next morning, circuitous route back to Pullman, general argumentative behavior, possibly breaking and entering a colleague's home and then helping her set up security cameras (allegedly), being pulled over regularly, attitudes towards women, and I could go on and on.

This is not a preponderance of evidence (YET) but it's starting to be quite more than a molehill, and we don't even have 1/100th of the 20k pieces of evidence or 51 terabytes of data. We are 6 months into probably a 3-year process. This is all the tip of the iceberg. IMO.

Ps. Absolutely no one has mentioned the fact that he would likely have driven past the police station on his way out of town.

It certainly does appear BK may be guilty, from what we have been told to date, however, we have not heard ALL of the evidence, as you have rightly pointed out …. And certainly not any evidence from the Defence as yet …

With the gag order in place, it is preventing both sides of the story being told …. (There are always 2 sides to a story, and they are often quite different to each other)

Even if the gag order is lifted I think we would only hear the parts that the Media want to sensationalise, and I suspect those parts that would assist the prosecution … Parts of the story that may attract headlines etc ….
MY opinion only….

In any criminal case… not just this one, I prefer to hear all of the evidence, and analyse it, before making a guilty on non guilty verdict in my mind ….
I personally, would hate to accuse someone of of such a heinous crime, without all of the evidence, in case I was wrong …. But that is just me …
And that is why I like to look at everything in detail …

All MOO

 

[SLouTh]

He had almost two months to clean his car.
MOO Lack of blood evidence there seems meaningless.

I don’t think the Prosecution have released anything yet to say they havent found evidence of any blood in the car??? I could be wrong and happy to be corrected on this ….They are keeping evidence close to the vest IMO

Police must have been hopeful of finding some blood evidence, they removed the foot pedals of BK’s car etc in PA…. I don’t think they would have done this if there was no chance…. They would have waited for the car to be delivered in its entirety …

They took a door panel, seat cushions, headrests, a seat belt, a visor, and brake and gas pedals from the car, according to court documents unsealed earlier this month.

SNIP

They did say in that warrant that became unsealed that the car really had been disassembled completely by law enforcement."

She said investigators would be searching for any "biological evidence" that might have been left in "the nooks and crannies" of the car and checking if the vehicle had been tampered with in an attempt to cover up any crime.

I think it would have been almost negligent of Police not to do this…. Never mind not having the budget to do it, that is just incredulous to me… IMO

SNIP

If they can uncover evidence of trying to get rid of evidence, such as bleach, that will also be damaging for the defense."

Why Bryan Kohberger's car could be key to case—former CIA...

Kohberger, 28, is accused of breaking into a home and fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Nova]

I believe Grand Juries are limited to investigating crimes committed within the jurisdiction that seats them. If they are not specifically looking into Dana Smithers due to the tip, maybe they empaneled a grand jury to look into any unsolved PA crimes that BK might have been involved in and Dana Smithers just happens to be one of them? Otherwise, I think that would reduce the options to investigating companion crimes to ID that could have taken place in PA, like obstruction, destroying evidence, etc. It seems like a Grand Jury wouldn't be the best way to look into something like that. MOOooo

I believe grand juries are specific to the county or whatever district the gj is in.

I don't think--IANAL--a gj in Monroe County can investigate crimes in Pennsylvania as a whole. PA is one of our larger states, especially among the original 13.

 

[megs1477]

He had almost two months to clean his car.
MOO Lack of blood evidence there seems meaningless.

Agreed.
Plus, how easy would it have been to cover the seat ahead of time, minimizing transfer.

 

[Helechawagirl]

I wonder why AT thinks the prosecutor is withholding evidence and what that evidence might be? Or is this just a defense tactic? I’m confused.

 

[SLouTh]

I wonder why AT thinks the prosecutor is withholding evidence and what that evidence might be? Or is this just a defense tactic? I’m confused.

Great question and I am not sure of the answer either …

In Australia it is common tactic for the prosecution to delay giving the defence documents … giving the defence less time to prepare their case …. But it usually ends up with the case being pushed back further….

One thing I don’t understand about this case is the Prosecution asking for “disclosure“ from the Defence …..(attached document) ????
It must be a US Legal Process ???
That would be unheard of here …. Why hire a lawyer if you have to give all info to the Prosecution prior to a trial???

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/052323%20States%20Request%20for%20Discovery%20Disclosure%20%20Alibi%20Demand.pdf

IMO

 

[jepop]

I don’t think the Prosecution have released anything yet to say they havent found evidence of any blood in the car??? I could be wrong and happy to be corrected on this ….They are keeping evidence close to the vest IMO

Police must have been hopeful of finding some blood evidence, they removed the foot pedals of BK’s car etc in PA…. I don’t think they would have done this if there was no chance…. They would have waited for the car to be delivered in its entirety …

They took a door panel, seat cushions, headrests, a seat belt, a visor, and brake and gas pedals from the car, according to court documents unsealed earlier this month.

SNIP

They did say in that warrant that became unsealed that the car really had been disassembled completely by law enforcement."

She said investigators would be searching for any "biological evidence" that might have been left in "the nooks and crannies" of the car and checking if the vehicle had been tampered with in an attempt to cover up any crime.

I think it would have been almost negligent of Police not to do this…. Never mind not having the budget to do it, that is just incredulous to me… IMO

SNIP

If they can uncover evidence of trying to get rid of evidence, such as bleach, that will also be damaging for the defense."

Why Bryan Kohberger's car could be key to case—former CIA...

Kohberger, 28, is accused of breaking into a home and fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students.

www.newsweek.com

RBBM just under your first snip. It's a quote from the article but it's confusing the issue, IMO. What warrant? What they have to mean is the Return of Service on the Elantra (PA Court /docs). No Court doc (ie Return of Service on elantra) says what's quoted there (ie "disassembled completely"). It's the opinon of whoever is being quoted. The rest is also their opinion. That being said, it's also my opinion that the car would have been subject to the most up to date and detailed forensic analysis available. MOO

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Great question and I am not sure of the answer either …

In Australia it is common tactic for the prosecution to delay giving the defence documents … giving the defence less time to prepare their case …. But it usually ends up with the case being pushed back further….

One thing I don’t understand about this case is the Prosecution asking for “disclosure“ from the Defence …..(attached document) ????
It must be a US Legal Process ???
That would be unheard of here …. Why hire a lawyer if you have to give all info to the Prosecution prior to a trial???

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/052323%20States%20Request%20for%20Discovery%20Disclosure%20%20Alibi%20Demand.pdf

IMO

Discovery is a process here. Hollywood aside, the idea isn't for the prosecution to win and the defense to lose (or vice versa); the idea is for the prosecution (the state) to seek justice, and so in the issue of fairness, the evidence is shared on both sides. In this way, both sides work for justice, and there are no surprise reveals. It also saves money and time. No one is guessing about what the other has got.

So yes, there's a long list of items the defense may request from the prosecution. And the defense, also in the interest of justice, fairness, judicial economy, etc., provides the discoverable items to the prosecution.

Remember, too, that here, the prosecution works with LE and LE seizes all of the evidence (4th Amendment, warrants (to search & seized) & affidavits with probable cause related to places to be searched and things/persons to be seized), so they would have to share it if the defense is to have fair access to it. The defense also does its own investigations (provided there is time and money -- with public defense, that's not always the case and EJI.org and InnocenceProject are filled with examples of that.)

Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Standards for the Prosecution Function

Criminal Justice Standards for the Prosecution Function. Copyright by the American Bar Association. This work (Criminal Justice Standards) may be used for non-profit educational and training purposes and legal reform (legislative, judicial, and execu

www.americanbar.org

(b) The primary duty of the prosecutor is to seek justice within the bounds of the law, not merely to convict. The prosecutor serves the public interest and should act with integrity and balanced judgment to increase public safety both by pursuing appropriate criminal charges of appropriate severity, and by exercising discretion to not pursue criminal charges in appropriate circumstances. The prosecutor should seek to protect the innocent and convict the guilty, consider the interests of victims and witnesses, and respect the constitutional and legal rights of all persons, including suspects and defendants.


The rules of discovery are here: I.C.R. 16. Discovery and Inspection | Supreme Court

Here's what's not discoverable:

(g) Prosecution Information Not Subject to Disclosure.

(1) Work Product. Disclosure must not be required of:

(A) legal research or of records,

(B) correspondence, or

(C) reports or memoranda to the extent that they contain the opinions, theories or conclusions of the prosecuting attorney or members of the prosecuting attorney's legal staff.

(2) Informants. Disclosure must not be required of an informant's identity unless the informant is to be produced as a witness at a hearing or trial, subject to any protective order under subsection (l) of this rule or a disclosure order under subsection (b)(6) of this rule.

(h) Defense Information Not Subject to Disclosure. Except as to scientific or medical reports, this rule does not authorize the discovery or inspection of reports, memoranda, or other internal defense documents made by the defendant, or defendant's attorneys or agents in connection with the investigation or defense of the case, or of statements made by the defendant or prosecuting attorney or defense witnesses, or prospective state or defense witnesses to the defendant, defendant's agents or attorneys.

 

[SLouTh]

RBBM just under your first snip. It's a quote from the article but it's confusing the issue, IMO. What warrant? What they have to mean is the Return of Service on the Elantra (PA Court /docs). No Court doc (ie Return of Service on elantra) says what's quoted there (ie "disassembled completely"). It's the opinon of whoever is being quoted. The rest is also their opinion. That being said, it's also my opinion that the car would have been subject to the most up to date and detailed forensic analysis available. MOO

That article was published on 26th March, I couldn’t find anything specific in the court documents either …..

There were a lot of documents sealed and redacted in early March but nothing I can see that is specific to the car … there is one from the Police Lab where an entire section has been redacted … with warrant for the computer… it could have been that one possibly???

 

[girlhasnoname]

What if LE discovered DNA in the car not belonging to BK but also not a match to any victims from 1122 King?

Also, what about the animal hair collected? If it doesn't match Murphy and BK himself nor his friends/family have pets matching the hair samples, then what should LE make of that? Did LE attempt to match the hair to an animal?

I would expect LE to find DNA in BK's car not belonging to him. He's had friends in the car? The mechanic who has worked on his car? I had a windshield replaced and I can tell you that technician was all up in my car touching everything. Oil change, my dealer puts paperwork in the glove box. There are a lot of scenarios for DNA to be in BK's car that doesn't belong to him.

Regarding DNA of the victims. Unless he had the car completely covered in plastic, was wearing plastic coveralls at the time of the murder that he discarded before he got into the the car (it would take seconds to strip that off and put into a bag before driving away) I would expect there might be some speck or trace of the victims DNA transferred, but he also had plenty of time to clean the car. Weeks, it's been reported neighbors at the complex he lived at and even his sister at the family home have seen him cleaning it. That in and of itself wouldn't be exculpatory to his Defense.

Animal hair collected? Maybe he tried his knife skills out on an animal first. Wouldn't be the first time killers have done that, even though it breaks my heart to type it.

MOO

 

[jepop]

That article was published on 26th March, I couldn’t find anything specific in the court documents either …..

There were a lot of documents sealed and redacted in early March but nothing I can see that is specific to the car …

They're talking about the PA search warrant returns IMO.

 

[jepop]

I would expect LE to find DNA in BK's car not belonging to him. He's had friends in the car? The mechanic who has worked on his car? I had a windshield replaced and I can tell you that technician was all up in my car touching everything. Oil change, my dealer puts paperwork in the glove box. There are a lot of scenarios for DNA to be in BK's car that doesn't belong to him.

Regarding DNA of the victims. Unless he had the car completely covered in plastic, was wearing plastic coveralls at the time of the murder that he discarded before he got into the the car (it would take seconds to strip that off and put into a bag before driving away) I would expect there might be some speck or trace of the victims DNA transferred, but he also had plenty of time to clean the car. Weeks, it's been reported neighbors at the complex he lived at and even his sister at the family home have seen him cleaning it. That in and of itself wouldn't be exculpatory to his Defense.

Animal hair collected? Maybe he tried his knife skills out on an animal first. Wouldn't be the first time killers have done that, even though it breaks my heart to type it.

MOO

Just on the animal hair/s, oh boy I truly hope not :-(.

RE the animal hair though (was it more than one? two?) on ROS for WA appartment, unless it's Murphy's then I can't see it coming into play. Could have been transfered there from anywhere. Ie a colleague may have a cat and cat hair got picked up by BK whilst at WSU. He could have picked up an animal hair or two off someone in a supermarket. Endless possibilities if the hairs aren't fro Kaylee's labradoodle. We'll see I guess but personally I'm betting it will turn out to be not much. I speculate that BK was a somewhat obsessive cleaner and vaccuumer. MOO

 

[Swansee]

I hope none of the following will make anyone think I am a BK fan, but I do have some questions after reading the comments here in the last few pages.
AFAIK it isn't up to the defense to prove he didn't do it. It's up to the state to prove he did.
If there's nothing of the victims in the car, then the car doesn't help the prosecution. If there's no clear view of the plates or driver, then the video footage doesn't help the prosecution prove it was his car that was seen there.
If the ID's found in the glove aren't related to the King road house's residents, those are useless.
All there seems to be is the sheath with a single cell of touch DNA on it. And as far as I understand, that would be rather easy to sow doubt about (see story in article below), especially if there are chain of custody issues, which I think this is one thing the families are concerned about and why they may be reserving the right to sue the ISP/Moscow PD etc if they screwed any evidence up by processing it poorly)
His phone pinged in the area regularly... Is that enough to prove he killed them?
What I am getting at is, unless the prosecution has some huge bombshell we don't know about, it seems to me they actually don't have much that clearly shows he killed those 4 people. A lot of stuff that kinda hints that maybe he could have done it (because who wears latex gloves in their home yadda yadda), but nothing that unequivocally shows he did it.
I hope this all doesn't come across as a defense of BK. I just wish there was something really solid.
And if I am wrong on some of these facts please let me know!
Article on touch DNA :

Framed for Murder by His Own DNA

We leave traces of our genetic material everywhere, even on things we’ve never touched. That got Lukis Anderson charged with a brutal crime he didn’t commit.

www.themarshallproject.org

 

[girlhasnoname]

I hope none of the following will make anyone think I am a BK fan, but I do have some questions after reading the comments here in the last few pages.
AFAIK it isn't up to the defense to prove he didn't do it. It's up to the state to prove he did.
If there's nothing of the victims in the car, then the car doesn't help the prosecution. If there's no clear view of the plates or driver, then the video footage doesn't help the prosecution prove it was his car that was seen there.
If the ID's found in the glove aren't related to the King road house's residents, those are useless.
All there seems to be is the sheath with a single cell of touch DNA on it. And as far as I understand, that would be rather easy to sow doubt about (see story in article below), especially if there are chain of custody issues, which I think this is one thing the families are concerned about and why they may be reserving the right to sue the ISP/Moscow PD etc if they screwed any evidence up by processing it poorly)
His phone pinged in the area regularly... Is that enough to prove he killed them?
What I am getting at is, unless the prosecution has some huge bombshell we don't know about, it seems to me they actually don't have much that clearly shows he killed those 4 people. A lot of stuff that kinda hints that maybe he could have done it (because who wears latex gloves in their home yadda yadda), but nothing that unequivocally shows he did it.
I hope this all doesn't come across as a defense of BK. I just wish there was something really solid.
And if I am wrong on some of these facts please let me know!
Article on touch DNA :

Framed for Murder by His Own DNA

We leave traces of our genetic material everywhere, even on things we’ve never touched. That got Lukis Anderson charged with a brutal crime he didn’t commit.

www.themarshallproject.org

Based on the State's response to discovery, they've got a ton of evidence. Of course, we won't know about it until trial or unless the gag order is lifted, which I doubt will happen in this case.

Is it possible it just happened to be BK's car in the area at the time of the murders 4 times, possible the intruder described by a witness matches his description, possible that he drove back around the scene the next day at 9:00 am, possible he purchased the same murder weapon used, possible he just happened to change his plates 5 days after the murders from PA to WA, possible he was found disposing trash in neighbors can at 4 am in the morning wearing gloves and he isn't involved?

It's all possible, but not probable beyond a reasonable doubt.

MOO

 

[jepop]

Based on the State's response to discovery, they've got a ton of evidence. Of course, we won't know about it until trial or unless the gag order is lifted, which I doubt will happen in this case.

Is it possible it just happened to be BK's car in the area at the time of the murders 4 times, possible the intruder described by a witness matches his description, possible that he drove back around the scene the next day at 9:00 am, possible he purchased the same murder weapon used, possible he just happened to change his plates 5 days after the murders from PA to WA, possible he was found disposing trash in neighbors can at 4 am in the morning wearing gloves and he isn't involved?

It's all possible, but not probable beyond a reasonable doubt.

MOO

One major piece of potential evidence we know nothing about is digital trail - forensic analysis of BK computers, phone and other devices, sealed and redacted warrants for google et al. Also, forensic analysis of (I assume) King Road router, return on warrant for router Comp (I believe it is the Charter Inc redacted warrant, or could be another but there is one warrant amongst all of them there for a company that collects and stores router data). MOO.

ETA: and we actually have no idea what has come back from the elantra and/or if forensic examination is still ongoing. MOO