4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[TL4S]

RBBM: Adding to your path of speculation, maybe he didn't 'abort mission' if having an oops moment with phone in south Pullman after leaving home because he needed to follow through that night because it was close to the last chance he'd get before Thanks Giving/exams (TA duties) or for some other reason? Possibly last chance according to his own time-table- he needs to be at WSU weekdays and appear 'normal' after crimes? I can't remember the line of reasoning now, but recall a poster putting forward a possible 'last chance' scenario that certainly made sense. Could've been @Cool Cats?

MOO and only speculation

None of it explains why he had it on when he returned around 9am.

 

[katydid23]

IMO this will be one of the many things used to shoot down that cell phone evidence. There are so many questions, and while this isn't at the top of my list, Why in the world would a criminology student drive his own car

I have wondered the same thing, but brings me back to how else would he get there?

Whose car would he use? Borrow, rent one, steal one? All of the options are also problematic.
Borrowing one creates witnesses. A rental creates paperwork and a connection. Stealing one has its own risks.

Same with the cell phone decision. Leave it at home? Isn't that also suspicious if it is the only night he would have done so?

Driving his car would have been OK if he had been more careful about where the cameras in the neighborhood are.
He would have been better off though if he had plugged his phone into the charger at home as if it was been charged as he slept.

 

[jepop]

He didn't have to wait for it to expire---if he wanted in-state tuition savings earlier he could register his car as soon as he moved there. No need to wait.

So why did he wait? Maybe there was a plan in place to wait until after the crime?

That cleans the last cobwebs out of my mind re this discussion. Succinctly cuts to the chase. Thank you!

 

[jepop]

None of it explains why he had it on when he returned around 9am.

Yes, you're right. IDK, if one wanted to keep pushing for this theory, I suppose you could say that he only considered his alibi for the night and didn't think ahead to the next morning...I suppose in real life, and this is true IME, even with the best laid plans individuals will waver from them in ways that are unaccountable from an evidence based model. There are so many psychological pressures and motives and even unknown self-sabotaging tendencies that a person may not/sometimes very likely not be aware of...There are rational/logical plans, then there is the not always rational/logical human who goes about with the intention of executing those plans if that makes any sense... (am conscious of not wanting to get too far off topic here!). All MOO

 

[NCWatcher]

He didn't have to wait for it to expire---if he wanted in-state tuition savings earlier he could register his car as soon as he moved there. No need to wait.

So why did he wait? Maybe there was a plan in place to wait until after the crime?

You are right he didn't have to wait. And perhaps he shouldn't have. But if I was a juror and given these two alternatives, I know which one I'd choose as more likely!

1. A grad student from PA waits until his plate is about to expire in Nov to do what needs to be done to register his car in WA. The tasks he has to do include spending the money (money he may not have had until he started getting paid) to get a WA driver's license (required before car can be a registered in WA), then transferring the title (again at some cost) and getting a WA plate, after getting new car insurance (most likely required with most sources saying minimum liability insurance costs more in WA than PA Car Insurance Rates by State for 2023 | Bankrate )

2. A grad student from PA decides in July to delay registering his car in WA. He knows he plans to commit a crime in Idaho in Nov so he waits until after that when his PA plate is about to expire to apply online to register his car in WA. He does this on Nov 18 in part so he'll be able to keep driving with the same PA plates that were on the car on the night of the murder until the end of the first week of December.

It's true it appears BK could have been delayed in getting in-state tuition the first semester of his second year by not acting sooner. (He had a waiver with his TA first year but even if he hadn't, he could not have qualified as a resident the first year no matter what. He hadn't lived there 12 months.) But I know as a juror-- especially given my experiences with procrastinating and broke students-- I'd think #1 was much more likely. No way I could be convinced #2 was more likely without lots more information we don't now have. And honestly, unless the hypothetical additional info was blockbusting, I'd be surprised if the prosecution tried to make a case for #2. But we'll see!
JMO

 

[TL4S]

Yes, you're right. IDK, if one wanted to keep pushing for this theory, I suppose you could say that he only considered his alibi for the night and didn't think ahead to the next morning...I suppose in real life, and this is true IME, even with the best laid plans individuals will waver from them in ways that are unaccountable from an evidence based model. There are so many psychological pressures and motives and even unknown self-sabotaging tendencies that a person may not/sometimes very likely not be aware of...There are rational/logical plans, then there is the not always rational/logical human who goes about with the intention of executing those plans if that makes any sense... (am conscious of not wanting to get too far off topic here!). All MOO

Yeah, any of those ideas could work. We may never know the reason he had his phone. Him having it at 9am could have even been to digitally document the LE activity that he'd maybe assumed would be there. Just a thought...

 

[jjleroche]

RBBM: Adding to your path of speculation, maybe he didn't 'abort mission' if having an oops moment with phone in south Pullman after leaving home because he needed to follow through that night because it was close to the last chance he'd get before Thanks Giving/exams (TA duties) or for some other reason? Possibly last chance according to his own time-table- he needs to be at WSU weekdays and appear 'normal' after crimes? I can't remember the line of reasoning now, but recall a poster putting forward a possible 'last chance' scenario that certainly made sense. Could've been @Cool Cats?

MOO and only speculation

Or the last chance to "interact" with Kaylee before she moved to Texas.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

Point of all of that is to say that if there was a massive clean-up of the car using bleach or the Oxyclean version, that would probably show up in tests. It could be that is the case but the reason I question that is the exonerating evidence cited by the defense. I have a hard time believing AT would make a false claim in a motion to compel. Just me and IMO.

BBM

From: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/050423 Motion to Compel Discovery.pdf

From: information and belief

“Information and Belief” is a phrase that is normally used in legal pleadings such as complaints and answers during a lawsuit. It is also sometimes used during affidavits under oath, declarations under penalty of perjury. In these instances, the individual stating the phrase or statement qualifies it. Thus, what the individual is really stating is "I am only stating what I have been told, and I believe it." The purpose of this phrase is to show which statements the individual is sure about and distinguish from statements that the individual is unsure about or lacks personal knowledge (such as if it’s hearsay). The point of stating this phrase is to protect the individual making the statement from claims of perjury or outright falsehood.

There is no reason to believe AT made a false claim!!!

IMO IANAL MOO

 

[Boxer]

IMO this will be one of the many things used to shoot down that cell phone evidence. There are so many questions, and while this isn't at the top of my list, Why in the world would a criminology student drive his own car and take his phone to a quadruple murder? sure makes my Top 10 List.


Maybe even buy a new one in advance of the crime if he'd been plotting it forever?

Criminals are not fundamentally smart. Why beef with your assigned supervising professor?

 

[U.N. Known]

As per the affidavit his phone was located there …

the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources that would provide coverage to the King Road Residence between 9: 12 a,m. and 9:21 am.

https://www.insideedition.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/122922%20Affidavit%20-%20Exhibit%20A%20-%20Statement%20of%20Brett%20Payne_0.pdf

There is footage of a white sedan near King Road that day… 5hours after the murders making the after 9am time correlate with the phone…


Police allege that Kohberger stalked the King Road home at least a dozen times before the attack and returned once more about five hours after the murders — which was still hours before the initial 911 call.

They say they traced his car to and from the crime scene on the morning of the slayings and used phone pings to follow his suspected path.

Idaho murders: King Road home where Bryan Kohberger allegedly stabbed 4 boarded up, will be demolished

The King Road home near the University of Idaho campus where four students were killed in November has been boarded up and fenced in as the suspect remains jailed.

www.foxnews.com

Recently reviewed video in the haunting University of Idaho murder case may support investigators' theory that the murder suspect Bryan Kohberger returned to the scene of the killing in his white Hyundai Elantra in the hours after the massacre.

Is THIS Bryan Kohberger returning to the scene of the Idaho murders?

New video in the University of Idaho murder case may support investigators' theory that the suspect returned to the scene of the killing hours after the massacre.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Everything other than the part from the PCA in bold is theory and speculation. There is no mention in the PCA a white Elantra seen driving along King Road between 9:12 and 9:21. The officer only mentions what is quoted above about BK's phone using the same cellular resources that the King Road house uses.

IMO, Officer Payne did not mention video evidence of the car on King Road at that time because there isn't any. Considering that they were able to pull video from 30 minutes before and minutes after the likely time of the murders, it it's reasonable to believe that if the Elantra traversed the same path to the house five hours later (3 hours before the 911 call) there should be video. If there was video, IMO, there is zero reason Officer Payne would not mention it.

 

[U.N. Known]

He didn't have to wait for it to expire---if he wanted in-state tuition savings earlier he could register his car as soon as he moved there. No need to wait.

So why did he wait? Maybe there was a plan in place to wait until after the crime?

As a few someone's posted above thread, he was likely receiving in-state tuition with his TA position. IF that was the case, proving residency earlier was unnecessary. So, like many people, he may have just waited until it was time to renew.

 

[jepop]

BBM

From: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/050423 Motion to Compel Discovery.pdf
View attachment 425107
From: information and belief

“Information and Belief” is a phrase that is normally used in legal pleadings such as complaints and answers during a lawsuit. It is also sometimes used during affidavits under oath, declarations under penalty of perjury. In these instances, the individual stating the phrase or statement qualifies it. Thus, what the individual is really stating is "I am only stating what I have been told, and I believe it." The purpose of this phrase is to show which statements the individual is sure about and distinguish from statements that the individual is unsure about or lacks personal knowledge (such as if it’s hearsay). The point of stating this phrase is to protect the individual making the statement from claims of perjury or outright falsehood.

There is no reason to believe AT made a false claim!!!

IMO IANAL MOO

Thanks for the research! I've been thinking that phrase over for a while, wondering about the differing interpretations of exculpatory when the notion of context is applied.

Re the motion to compel and State response, I think the State has asked the defense to clarify what the defense are after. However, I don't read that as implying that the state is suggesting the defense might be being dishonest. My thinking is that this will be clarified at the 27th June hearing. MOO

As you point out, with the pro forma wording used in the defense's motion to compel there is no reason why anyone involved would suggest that Attorney Anne Taylor is making something up IMO. I think the hearing will definately be about clarification on both sides.
MOO
.................................................................................................

As a related aside I found the following interesting:

The State in its 23 Jan response to Defense's Request for Discovery refers to a certain category (?) of potentially exculpatory evidence that appears to be based on the context in which that evidence may be used. MOO

"In addition, with regard to material or information which may be exculpatory as used
or interpreted..."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/012323 States Response to Request for Discovery.pdf (p4)

The above is in regard to potential defense strategy and incorporated into the State's response only in the form of a request.. The State refers to this as "in addition" to other exculpatory evidence and so that it can continue to fulfill its duties under ICR rules and relevant case law, Brady/Giglio and so forth. MOO


EBM x 2 for clarity, structure

 

[Helechawagirl]

Yeah, any of those ideas could work. We may never know the reason he had his phone. Him having it at 9am could have even been to digitally document the LE activity that he'd maybe assumed would be there. Just a thought...

I’ve wondered if he took photos of his crime.

 

[jepop]

BooBoos, But Would LE Peg Walter Mitty* or Mr. Martin** as a Suspect?

snipped for focus. @SLouTh
Imo, one possibility = BK did not think he would be on LE's radar for these homicides. Not for any reason. Not ever.
But perhaps thought, if somehow LE questioned him, it would only be as a potential witness, to give LE leads or clues.

________________________________

{eta: My speculation about BK's} IMAGINED convo w LE (abbreviated)?
{eta: NOT saying BK actually imagined a convo like this}
Detectives: "We're investigating the 4 homicides last week, and we got Ring vid of your car a few blocks from that house about 4 am. "
BK: "Yeah, I couldn't sleep, was driving around, thinking about ___ " [something Uni. related, so he could segue into his TA-ship, having bachelors & masters degree. Maybe let it slip his field is crim justice, so they could "talk shop."]

Detectives: "When you were driving around close to 1100 block of King that morning, did you see anything unusual?"
BK: "No". Maybe adds: "Except maybe another white Elantra like mine."

Detectives: "Would you mind if we had a look at your car?"
BK: "Here are the keys. Help yourself."
They walk around car, open driver door, trunk, spot no easily observable blood.
"Sorry to bother you and take up your valuable time, but we have to rule people out. Here's my card. Let us know if you think of anything else."
BK: "Will do."

Still within BK's earshot, detectives walk toward their car.
One: "When we didn't find convictions or even arrests, I knew he was not our perp."
Younger detective: "Nice guy, polite, clean cut, well-spoken. Grad student, on his way to bigger things. Maybe a full Uni professorship at ___ one day. I wonder why someone like that has not asked my sister for a date. 24 yrs old, college homecoming queen, French underwear model, and rocket scientist. She'd jump at the chance."
And later BK thinks about calling in a tip, so he & detectives can bond over IPA and crim justice issues.
____________________________________________

See, people, glitches like phone settings or unintentional knife sheath leave-behinds may be booboos, but even w vid of his car, LE would not zero in on him as a suspect in a quadruple stabbing homicide. He's a law-abiding citizen, no crim history, a perfect cover, w nothing to worry about. Like BTK Dennis Rader. Well, until arrest?

Not saying ^ was BK's line of thought. All sarc, all from my imagination on Running Wild setting, about his imagination.

===================================
Re both links, referring to them only because the central character (Walter Mitty or Mr. Martin) seems so unlikely to be a hero or a person intent on killing. No similarity re victims or victimology.
* Walter Mitty is a fictitious character of author James Thurber. "Mitty is a meek, mild man with a vivid fantasy life.... Even in his heroic daydreams, Mitty does not triumph, several fantasies being interrupted before the final one sees Mitty dying bravely in front of a firing squad...."
Walter Mitty - Wikipedia (Ignore 2013 Ben Stiller movie.)

** Closer the mark, this is the full text of the six page short story published in 1942 about fictitious Mr. Martin, an unlikely suspect of "attempted murder," from ^ same author James Thurber: "The Catbird Seat."

https://www.vma.is/static/files/enska/Bokmenntir/Short%20Stories/TheCatbirdSeat_Thurber.pdf

I just read the Catbird. What a great story.(it's actually a really nice story with a sympathetic hero, IMO). Trying to make post relevant and on topic, this story provides an e.g of how commitment to a detailed plan to murder can go awry (due to psychological pressures on the killer/potential killer) and how he might innovate in the circumstances. MOO

 

[Sundog]

He didn't have to wait for it to expire---if he wanted in-state tuition savings earlier he could register his car as soon as he moved there. No need to wait.

So why did he wait? Maybe there was a plan in place to wait until after the crime?

IIRC, WSU pays the out-of-state tuition costs for the first year of a TA in the doctoral program, but then doctoral students who are receiving tuition waivers through the teaching assistantship program are required to become in-state students in order to receive the tuition waiver from WSU for the second year. The first year is a kind of "grace" period that the department picks up the cost for the out-of-state doctoral students who are just moving to Washington. But that wouldnt be something that the department could afford to do for the second year of their studies, nor should they. Different univerities in different states handle this differently, based on laws that legislators have passed in their states. Legislatures have become very clear in the last few years that in-state-tuition is for residents, although they often pass legislation that allows for agreements among contiguous states to allow the flow of students to their universities while paying in-state-tuition.

International students is an entire different issue. They are in the country on F-1 visas and are not expected to become residents of the state they live in. They file non-resident income tax forms as required while they are on F-1 visa status and studying in the U.S.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I think you may have mixed up MSM speculative reports with what is in the PCA (or in this case not in the PCA). I think this has already been cleared up but there are no known camera captures of BK's elantra being on Queen Street at 9.10am - 9.20am on November 13th. He was nearby though, as per his phone pings. MOO

I had the theory, but my google map exploration didn't pan out, that maybe he drove up to that hilly road that looks down on Moscow (was it called Indian Hills or something similar?) in order to find a place from which to view the house and LE activity from afar the next morning.

But that road doesn't seem to provide a view of the King Rd. house.

I do still think it possible that he returned to Moscow (on an "innocent" shopping trip, so no need in his mind to avoid his phone being on) with the idea of parking somewhere else in town where he would have a view of the house. Whether he found such a vista point I don't know, but of course there was nothing to see until hours later, which seems probable he did NOT expect...

But I don't think he returned to King Road that morning.

I speculate that a large portion of Moscow, say, at least 25% (IMO) is covered by that cell tower.

 

[schooling]

IMO on the night of the BK's phone pinged off of Bluetooth and not WIFI.

The reason I believe this is because Google did not change Android's default Airplane Mode behavior until December of 2022. Up until then only Bluetooth was enabled in Airplane Mode (unless you had an iPhone). This move was made so you didn't lose connections to your headphones when turning on Airplane mode for takeoff. The ability for WIFI to remain enabled came that month (December).

This assumes BK put his phone into Airplane Mode instead of turning it completely off. Which is the only way that LE would have any bluetooth/wifi information for the night of..

I think LE likely has WIFI info for days/nights other than the murders. With the intent of narrowing the cellular tower data area for those who will say 'just because he's in that neighborhood it doesn't mean....". BK was likely a lot less careful on those days and I bet they have both Bluetooth and WIFI putting him in close range of the house on multiple days.

MOO

 

[schooling]

Why would the Press have been there just after 9am ??? When the 911 call wasn’t made until 11:58am??

Several hours after the killings, at around 9:12 a.m., Mr. Kohberger’s phone was detected in Moscow, connecting to the cellular network near the scene of the murders and staying there for nine minutes, according to the police records.

10 Key Revelations in the Idaho Murder Case (Published 2023)

Court records unsealed this week provided vital and unsettling new details about the night that four University of Idaho students were killed.

www.nytimes.com

Another poster seems to think the same about him returning that morning .. it is in the timeline ….

Post in thread '4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81'
4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

The DailyMail didn't do their homework.

At the time that article was published the PCA had not yet been released and the white car in the frame had long been debunked IMO by the community with much clearer shots of it.

The PCA and timeline just further puts the nail in the coffin of their DailyMail article.

 

[Erutan]

I don’t think the Prosecution have released anything yet to say they havent found evidence of any blood in the car??? I could be wrong and happy to be corrected on this ….They are keeping evidence close to the vest IMO

Police must have been hopeful of finding some blood evidence, they removed the foot pedals of BK’s car etc in PA…. I don’t think they would have done this if there was no chance…. They would have waited for the car to be delivered in its entirety …

They took a door panel, seat cushions, headrests, a seat belt, a visor, and brake and gas pedals from the car, according to court documents unsealed earlier this month.

SNIP

They did say in that warrant that became unsealed that the car really had been disassembled completely by law enforcement."

She said investigators would be searching for any "biological evidence" that might have been left in "the nooks and crannies" of the car and checking if the vehicle had been tampered with in an attempt to cover up any crime.

I think it would have been almost negligent of Police not to do this…. Never mind not having the budget to do it, that is just incredulous to me… IMO

SNIP

If they can uncover evidence of trying to get rid of evidence, such as bleach, that will also be damaging for the defense."

Why Bryan Kohberger's car could be key to case—former CIA...

Kohberger, 28, is accused of breaking into a home and fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students.

www.newsweek.com

Bbm.
Ita with your entire post.
Well stated. ^^^

I also wanted to add that the investigators may have used Luminol; and if they've found more evidence, imo they're keeping it under wraps, since there is no reason for them to divulge everything just yet.
There's no legal precedence that would compel them to have their hand forced at this time, correct ?
Sorry if that's too 'wordy', trying to say my opinion from a layman's perspective !

BK's atty's. are going to mount a vigorous defense, and also -- imo -- he will receive a fair trial !
His defense may try to say that if the only evidence is the knife sheath, that it was planted -- and BK was never inside the residence.
Makes me nervous for the families.
What if this unspeakable monster walks ?
M00.

 

[jepop]

I had the theory, but my google map exploration didn't pan out, that maybe he drove up to that hilly road that looks down on Moscow (was it called Indian Hills or something similar?) in order to find a place from which to view the house and LE activity from afar the next morning.

But that road doesn't seem to provide a view of the King Rd. house.

I do still think it possible that he returned to Moscow (on an "innocent" shopping trip, so no need in his mind to avoid his phone being on) with the idea of parking somewhere else in town where he would have a view of the house. Whether he found such a vista point I don't know, but of course there was nothing to see until hours later, which seems probable he did NOT expect...

But I don't think he returned to King Road that morning.

I speculate that a large portion of Moscow, say, at least 25% (IMO) is covered by that cell tower.

Could be, though a pretty quick shopping trip, but for sure if the alleged killer is innocent then could be a favourite place far away for take away coffee, breakfast(?) (is there a drive through Maccas?). If he's guilty, then I would guess he went there to check out what was happening at 1122. AS to vantage points I don't think it would have been Indian Hills Drive because that seems too far away. I haven't looked for vantage points via maps so not really informed. I did look once at this one appartment block car park on South side of Taylor Road where if someone parked in the right spot would provide an unobstructed view through a walkway that ends on Queen Street directly infront of 1122. But there may have been a camera in that car park I suppose. The car park faces onto the large grassed area so probably no cameras there. MOO

IDK about estimating cell tower coverage at all. All I do know is that per PCA,the King Road residence doesn't utilise cellular resources utilised by businesses and residents in the vicinity of Farm Road and Pullman Highway. That busy intersection is, I've read, a central kind of shopping area or something and is situated about 1.6 miles from 1122 King Road. So all I can surmise from that is that BK wasn't there for 10 minutes that morning. MOO