A New Look at Intruder Theories

[sandraladeda]

Thanks hotyh, for your quick response.

1. Can you tell me where the panties, the pineapple, and the sexual assault fit into your theory?
2. Why didn't they (the perp or perps) come with a pre-written Ransom note? Why risk the time it took to write a long-winded RN in the R house using R paper and pen?
3. Why did this rich person choose that date, and that situation (being in the house while the parents are there, the risk of being heard and caught) to kidnap JBR? Woldn't it have been easier to snatch her from school, or sometime when she was playing outside, just drive by and grab her? A rich guy with the resources to learn about the family would know when JR had business travel, why not snatch JBR when PR is home alone with the kids?

Those are all my questions, for now.

 

[coloradokares]

OK, but I'm not sure you'll appreciate where I'm coming from.

Its pretty obvious that most RDI circumvent the obvious, as if they are 'not to be fooled' by 'all the staging'. If it does turn out to be a rich, foreign person, then all the time wasted by circumvention and lynch-mob mentality only cost JBR justice.

Howy is it that it That investgating the Ramesys as well is a Lynch nib nenmetality. What if it turns out to be a rich Americal looking to save lher own hide or that of her husband and her paycheecks ?



My premise is to take everything as it appears, unless there is a valid, fact-based reason to discount it. The only thing that I have been able to discount is the ransom part. That is because:

1. The amount of 118K is less than JR could've afforded. The amount seems not credible.
2. JBR was found dead in the basement. A real ransom kidnapper would've taken JBR alive or dead, in an effort to gain the ransom.
3. Ransom kidnappings don't happen very often. Its too hard these days to get away with cash without getting caught. It sounded more like an old movie plot.
4. JBR had injuries not consistent with a ransom kidnapper, who if caught probably wouldn't want other charges.

Everything else is as it seems, IMO. I don't think you've got any argument that it was not a rich foreign person. Whereas I have an argument that it was not ransom related. See what I mean? In my view, JBR was brutally murdered by someone who is also capable of depicting graphic violence on children in words.

If FFDI, without local help, then it was expensive because SFF would need to 'case the joint' first, and have high confidence of JR's schedule and knowledge of the inside of the house. If it was expensive, then probably funded by a rich person.

Who says child killers can't be rich and foreign? Is that a new rule?

No rule its simply a logical deduction after following the trail of evidence. This was not a foreigner or a faction

 

[BBB167893]

I appreciate your accolades, everybody. But I can handle this one myself!

What I asked for was a criminal profile from you that excludes a household member, based on the crime scene evidence.

That's what I did! Just like you wanted. I'm getting a headache.

I think your answer was: My intruder suspect is a man, full grown, anywhere from 25-50 years old (not really important) who knew JBR and her family.This appears to be the extent of your criminal profile from the detailed scenario you provided. Implied from your scenario is that the suspect is an active pedophile.

Actually, I meant to imply that this person had a specific obsession with JonBenet. His pedophilic tendencies grew out of that. Your implication is that I fingered a household member. How do you figure that?

How do you support your profile from crime scene evidence?

Leaving aside any snappy remarks (for NOW), I support my contention that he had been victimizing her for a while from the autopsy report and subsequent findings in that regard. I took the "anger" in the note at face-value and said that this person would probably hate the thing that stood in his way. Who wouldn't? I also took into account the way JB was dressed up after death. To me, that could suggest two things. One is not to be mentioned in this context, and the other is that, as long as he had to kill her, he might as well do it in style. After all, his "lover" deserved nothing less.

Its not that I disagree, I'm just curious.

Well, that's why you ask questions.


You can elaborate more on this profile too, if you want.

I didn't think I needed permission. But okay. "Norman" is a loner. He doesn't get along with people for very long. He has plenty of acquaintances, but no real friends. He finds children ideal because they respect him. He probably makes a good living working from home, since he doesn't have to deal face-to-face with anybody.

Also if you wouldn't mind sharing your idea on where Mr. N got his cord?

The local hardware store! LOL. All kidding aside, I meant to say he had it with him when he came in.

Only for the sake of conversation, I'll say that the only RDI scenario I would've ever bought into was a coverup of abuse by JR.

Okay, so outline it for us. I made the conditions and I delivered on my end. Now it's your turn.

However, that was then and this is now. I read the letter from the DA to JR for the first time yesterday and it was as I had already suspected: the DNA very likely was not placed in those areas innocently.

That is the opinion of committed IDIs who have already made up their minds like the DA and the people she hired and ONLY them. The DNA is worthless. I've said that before and I'll say it again. Considering how it took this new test just to find it, it was probably such a tiny amount it could have come from anywhere anyway.. She hasn't even tested anyone against it. I'll bet she never even considered any possibility of an innocent transfer. She has consistently followed her elitist prejudices and not the evidence, and as a result she has been consistently wrong. And that's not just my opinion. Ask Frank Coffman. Or doesn't it bother you that she hired people she knew would agree with her and never even contacted anyone who didn't, no matter how much effort they had put into the case or how well they knew it? That doesn't sound like much or a way to run an investigation to this layperson. That's the kind of "investigation" I'd expect in Cuba or Zimbabwe or someplace like that.
Remember JMK? 'Nuff said!

Its damning evidence for the intruder, whoever the intruder is.

Only in the minds of people who believe.

The DNA is not the only reason I would toss the scenario. LE stated that JR didn't pen the note,

Fair enough.

and I firmly believed PR would never 'go along' with any JBR homicide coverup scheme.

Why don't you believe that? I can think of one reason. (For the record, I don't buy the scenario you're talking about either, so your answer doesn't faze me one way or another.)

I never seriously considered PR a suspect.

Why not, may I ask?

 

[BBB167893]

Hi SuperDave.

That's a very 'chilling' read, espec. accentuated with an image of the NB character .....

When I take on a task, I do my best to take it all the way.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Okay, so outline it for us. I made the conditions and I delivered on my end. Now it's your turn.

Reread the posts, and you'll find that I was originally discussing 'criminal profiling', not scenarios.

You've added to the intruder criminal profile by saying that the killer is a loner, maybe works from home because he is unable to get along with others, etc. Thanks.

You'll pardon me if I didn't embrace your IDI scenario. Remember that you volunteered it, and I never asked for it. To be honest, I find there to be not enough evidence to justify discussion of a scenario where a 6 year old girl was a willing participant. Thats because it needlessly tarnishes the esteem of another person who is only a victim. The fact is, all the tools to make JBR a living but helpless victim were present at the crime scene, and your scenario circumvents that fact. The obvious conclusion being circumvented here is that she was very likely a victim of a rape homicide committed by a brutally violent person.

I believe I'll use judgement and avoid developing any JR-based scenarios, considering he's virtually excluded as a suspect right now. Remember that your suspect isn't a real person, you're using a pseudonym. I haven't named any real person in all my time here, as I beleve that's probably not a good idea.

 

[sandraladeda]

Reread the posts, and you'll find that I was originally discussing 'criminal profiling', not scenarios.

You've added to the intruder criminal profile by saying that the killer is a loner, maybe works from home because he is unable to get along with others, etc. Thanks.

You'll pardon me if I didn't embrace your IDI scenario. Remember that you volunteered it, and I never asked for it. To be honest, I find there to be not enough evidence to justify discussion of a scenario where a 6 year old girl was a willing participant. Thats because it needlessly tarnishes the esteem of another person who is only a victim. The fact is, all the tools to make JBR a living but helpless victim were present at the crime scene, and your scenario circumvents that fact. The obvious conclusion being circumvented here is that she was very likely a victim of a rape homicide committed by a brutally violent person.

I believe I'll use judgement and avoid developing any JR-based scenarios, considering he's virtually excluded as a suspect right now. Remember that your suspect isn't a real person, you're using a pseudonym. I haven't named any real person in all my time here, as I beleve that's probably not a good idea.

I also highly doubt a 6 yr old is a willing participant to anything, which is why i have never been able to buy the "playing Doctor with BR" scenario.

However, there is medical evidence of previous sexual abuse. JBR may not have been a "willing" participant, but it is extremely likely that the person responsible is a parent or person very close to the family, and JBR may not have been able to put up much of a fight. Add to this the possiblility that the abuse may have started with slight touching, and only over time escalated to some form of penetration.

The reason I can only see it as being a parent is because I consider it quite unlikely that someone close to the family would have consistent opportunity to abuse her to the degree that it leaves physical evidence behind. I have said this before, I doubt that if PR was the abuser, she would risk taking JBR to the doctor for the various infections she experienced, and risk being discovered as an abuser of her daughter. This leaves the most likely suspect as JR.

Of course one can argue that even if JR was the abuser this does not make him the killer....

 

[BBB167893]

Reread the posts, and you'll find that I was originally discussing 'criminal profiling', not scenarios.

Don't split hairs. I delivered on my end of the deal.

You've added to the intruder criminal profile by saying that the killer is a loner, maybe works from home because he is unable to get along with others, etc. Thanks.

No problem.

You'll pardon me if I didn't embrace your IDI scenario.

Doesn't bother me one bit.

Remember that you volunteered it, and I never asked for it.

I honestly thought you had.

To be honest, I find there to be not enough evidence to justify discussion of a scenario where a 6 year old girl was a willing participant.

Careful, now. Willing only because children are easy to manipulate and sometimes don't know any better. Don't put words in my mouth.

Thats because it needlessly tarnishes the esteem of another person who is only a victim.

I assure you that was NOT my intent.

The fact is, all the tools to make JBR a living but helpless victim were present at the crime scene, and your scenario circumvents that fact.

That's what happens when you ask someone to do something he doesn't believe in. I did the best I could.

The obvious conclusion being circumvented here is that she was very likely a victim of a rape homicide committed by a brutally violent person.

We'll have to disagree on that.

I believe I'll use judgement and avoid developing any JR-based scenarios, considering he's virtually excluded as a suspect right now.

For what it's worth, Holdon, I never figured he killed JB anyhow.

Remember that your suspect isn't a real person, you're using a pseudonym.

That's certainly true. Never claimed otherwise.

I haven't named any real person in all my time here, as I beleve that's probably not a good idea.

I was just taking your lead.

 

[DeeDee249]

I wonder though, if the humidity would have gotten to the tissue in an airtight coffin?

Coffins aren't really completely airtight. They aren't vacuum- sealed. Even a cement vault grave liner (or a lead one) doesn't keep out all moisture over time, and we don't know if a liner was used; in some places they are not allowed. The climate of any specific place does penetrate below the soil for a certain depth. As the water table rises in the ground, moisture can and will seep into the grave.
Only a vacuum-sealed, climate controlled above-ground burial will keep decay at bay for that many years, and even then decomposition occurs, though more slowly. Remember that decay begins with organisms already in the body- and many of them are anaerobic and do not need oxygen- they'll thrive in a vacuum too. So even if insects are kept away, the body still decomposes. Nature takes over, and we return to the "dirt thou art".

 

[Tadpole12]

When I take on a task, I do my best to take it all the way.

That's cool. Admirable trait.

 

[BBB167893]

That's cool. Admirable trait.

I'm much obliged. My father was the same way.

 

[Tadpole12]

I don't have an IDI theory. Just stuff I'm thinking bout the 'intruder's makeup.

Boy. It's hard to account for the ransom note in a known IDI theory? IMO, what a 'ransom' note? A little short story about 'who I am not'.

SD's known intruder theory, sorta an expanded variation of Lou Smits framework for his sadistic intruder. ( http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/smitdayfive.html )


err, can I say Lou Smit's name around here?


LS: ...the intricate and practiced appearance of the garrote, and the methodical lengthy ransom note, point to an intruder. A pedophile he says obsessed with the 6yo girl.

....Methodical and Obsessed.
Practiced and ..... Brutal and viscious and a fantascist chronic in the practice of EA and AEA.

LS:...(reference to 5th personality?) that is a very brutal, vicious personality that killed JB, that is not exhibited at all in any of the background of the Ramseys. It's just not there.

I dunno, SD? Why would a man, known to the Ramseys who had been molesting JBR need to kill her before she would 'tell'? Molestation is so hush hush, No one believes children?

Overkill .... to protect a secret like, but obsession and paranoia can breed violence.

yep... so hard to reconcile the 'ransom' note with a known IDI theory.
Very 'wordy' known intruder.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't have an IDI theory. Just stuff I'm thinking bout the 'intruder's makeup.

Boy. It's hard to account for the ransom note in a known IDI theory? IMO, what a 'ransom' note? A little short story about 'who I am not'.

SD's known intruder theory, sorta an expanded variation of Lou Smits framework for his sadistic intruder. ( http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/smitdayfive.html )


err, can I say Lou Smit's name around here?

You can mention his name around here, but there's a LOT of baggage that goes with it. That's why he gets the reception he does. Explaining it would take a long time, but to sum it up, he is the last person to accuse the BPD of bias.

LS: ...the intricate and practiced appearance of the garrote, and the methodical lengthy ransom note, point to an intruder. A pedophile he says obsessed with the 6yo girl.

According to Kane, this stuff about the garrote being intricate is all nonsense. "These were simple knots" he said. Also, the FBI profilers said nothing about the note being methodical. They said it was written by someone who was in a panic. Smit was at that meeting. He said nothing.


....Methodical and Obsessed.
Practiced and ..... Brutal and viscious and a fantascist chronic in the practice of EA and AEA.

LS:...(reference to 5th personality?) that is a very brutal, vicious personality that killed JB, that is not exhibited at all in any of the background of the Ramseys. It's just not there.

Smit can't believe that someone could kill her accidentally. He's basing his conclusions on the idea that the murder was premeditated. This whole idea about how there's "no history" only works if it's predicated on the idea that this was deliberate murder.

I dunno, SD? Why would a man, known to the Ramseys who had been molesting JBR need to kill her before she would 'tell'?

Well, the way I figured it, it's easy to keep a child quiet about that kind of thing through fear (which is what I think he used, per the scenario) as long as they know the abuser is close by. If she went on the trip, away from "Norman" surrounded by her family, she might get a case of bravery. That's what I mean.

Molestation is so hush hush, No one believes children?

No one? Well, maybe "Norman" had the two Rs snowed, but what about the rest of her family? Her half-brother John Andrew was known to be protective of JB and something of a hothead.

There's something else, too, Tadpole12. It's not really appropriate to discuss on this thread, but I can't help but wonder if maybe Patsy Ramsey was a victim herself. (Do NOT hold me to anything on that. It's just a feeling. I may post the reasoning elsewhere and you can make up your own mind.)


Overkill .... to protect a secret like, but obsession and paranoia can breed violence.

yep... so hard to reconcile the 'ransom' note with a known IDI theory.
Very 'wordy' known intruder.

Keep in mind that I made up this intruder theory but don't believe it myself. And incidentally, Larry Schiller is wrong on one thing. The reason the Rs were never brought to trial is not so much because "there is so much exculpatory evidence that a good defense attorney can deal with and get a client off," (although matching the DA against the Ramsey lawyers is like trying to take down a battleship with a BB gun!) but for other reasons. Long story there, and not really appropriate on this thread.

Something else, as well: Tom Haney is mentioned in that interview. That's an even longer story!

I hate to seem like I'm lecturing you, Tadpole12. I don't mean to do that. But after 10+ years on this case (on both sides) sometimes I can't be helped!

 

[Tadpole12]

"I hate to seem like I'm lecturing you, Tadpole12. I don't mean to do that. But after 10+ years on this case (on both sides) sometimes I can't be helped!"

No worries ....... ty for the additional info re Today interview. I haven't even begun to delve? into the history and egos in the BPD. Anyhow, ty for the headsup re sources.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Thanks hotyh, for your quick response.

1. Can you tell me where the panties, the pineapple, and the sexual assault fit into your theory? None of these things make or break IDI theory. The panties, pineapple, and sexual assault could be part of an undefined interaction between the perp and JBR that occurred in the hour or two they could've had together in the basement.
2. Why didn't they (the perp or perps) come with a pre-written Ransom note? Why risk the time it took to write a long-winded RN in the R house using R paper and pen? Thats an easy one. Rich foreign man and his agents would avoid any unnecessary risk, and traveling with a prewritten ransom note is unnecessary risk. It also could enable ink and paper to be sourced. Time wasn't a problem, they had hours and hours while the
R's were at the W's.
3. Why did this rich person choose that date, and that situation (being in the house while the parents are there, the risk of being heard and caught) to kidnap JBR? Being heard and caught meant either a burglary or breaking and entering rap, and thats it. Woldn't it have been easier to snatch her from school, or sometime when she was playing outside, just drive by and grab her? No, hot persuit would link the rich foreign man. A rich guy with the resources to learn about the family would know when JR had business travel, why not snatch JBR when PR is home alone with the kids? Rich guy was on his schedule, not JR's. Also, rich guy agents using heavy holiday volume to not be noticed.

Those are all my questions, for now.

I tried to answer most of them as best I could. Remember that rich foreign man explains other aspects of this case: why they wouldn't worry about leaving handwriting, why the case went cold, and why they can't match the DNA.

 

[BBB167893]

"I hate to seem like I'm lecturing you, Tadpole12. I don't mean to do that. But after 10+ years on this case (on both sides) sometimes I can't be helped!"

No worries ....... ty for the additional info re Today interview. I haven't even begun to delve? into the history and egos in the BPD. Anyhow, ty for the headsup re sources.

Plenty of ego problems on all sides in this one!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Just a question for anybody. Where are the phones located in the R's house?

 

[Chrishope]

I tried to answer most of them as best I could. Remember that rich foreign man explains other aspects of this case: why they wouldn't worry about leaving handwriting, why the case went cold, and why they can't match the DNA.

It doesn't explain the RN bing in PR's handwritting.

It doesn't explain why the kidnapping "went wrong" - i.e. why plan A was abondoned when obviously there was no problem getting her silently from bedroom to first floor. Obviously there was no reason at all not to take her from the house if that was the original plan. No need at all to go into the basement.

It doesn't explain redressing JBR after sexual assault.

It doesn't explain wrapping JBR in a blanket and hiding her body in the storage room.

It doesn't explain the Rs lying about JBR being up after returning home from the White's party.

It doesn't explain the Rs lying about Burke being asleep while the 911 call was placed.

It doesn't explain your own selectivity in deciding which parts of the RN to take at face value and which parts are "fake".

 

[sandraladeda]

I tried to answer most of them as best I could. Remember that rich foreign man explains other aspects of this case: why they wouldn't worry about leaving handwriting, why the case went cold, and why they can't match the DNA.

See how well we can do when we put our minds together? This is true sleuthing, imo, when we can throw out ideas and comment on the relative merits or shortcomings of each point. Let's not get entrenched into 2 camps (IDI, RDI), let's keep the dialog going on all aspects of the case.

As to the rich foreign man, I think the same could be said for a poor local man. A poor local man, a loner with no family to miss him on Christmas Day can admire JBR from afar, he can live a low profile life, he can have no criminal record so not be worried about fingerprints, handwriting or DNA.

What I am saying is, there is no evidence of large sums of money being spent on this crime, so no evidence it was a rich man. There is no evidence for a foreigner except for the RN which says "we are a SFF". But they also said it was a kidnapping, which it wasn't, so why believe the claim in the note of being foreign?

I am also wondering, if the plan was a kidnapping that went wrong, and they had to kill JBR, why not destroy or take away the invalid RN? Or, why not write a new note that says "we killed her because we respect your business but not the country it serves" or something like that?

I need to think a bit more before I respond to the other parts of your answer.

I am really enjoying the discussion of the past few days.

imho

 

[sandraladeda]

Okay, HOTYH, here are my thoughts on your other answers.

HOTYH
"None of these things make or break IDI theory. The panties, pineapple, and sexual assault could be part of an undefined interaction between the perp and JBR that occurred in the hour or two they could've had together in the basement."


Isn't an "undefined interaction" just a convoluted way to say "I don't know how this fits my theory"?
Is there evidence of lengthy time spent together in the basement?

Please try to imagine a scenario where the pineapple is brought down to the basement to JBR who is so cooperative with her captor that she asks him/them to fetch her a snack of pineapple.

Please try to think of a scenario in which the perp(s), hanging around with JBR in the basement, replace her size 6 bloomies with size 12s. Why did they do it, and how did they know where to find the backup pair of size 12s?

Please explain what caused the rich man or his agents to alter their plan from a kidnapping to a sexual assault, and why? Or were they staging a sexual assault because they were forced to kill her?

HOTYH
Thats an easy one. Rich foreign man and his agents would avoid any unnecessary risk, and traveling with a prewritten ransom note is unnecessary risk. It also could enable ink and paper to be sourced. Time wasn't a problem, they had hours and hours while the
R's were at the W's.

A generic pen, generic paper, and a note written in the car outside the Rs could take care of the risk of being pulled over, have their car and person searched and a RN found.


HOTYH
Being heard and caught meant either a burglary or breaking and entering rap, and thats it.

But a B and E rap would be just as likely to reveal who the foreign rich guy is! do you think his agents would swallow a cyanide capsule rather than reveal who hired them and why? Or, if the foreign rich guy is in the house himself, being arrested in the USA for a B and E is,what, no big deal?

HOTYH
No, hot persuit would link the rich foreign man.

But the rich foreign man has resources, can case the joint, whether it is the school, the home, dance classes, whatever, and come up with an escape route that is less risky than being trapped in a basement with a body.

HOTYH
Rich guy was on his schedule, not JR's. Also, rich guy agents using heavy holiday volume to not be noticed.

What does this mean, "on his schedule"? you make it sound as though he wouldn't let JR dictate when he, the rich foreign man will choose to kidnap JR's daughter, am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Chrishope]

SSF.

Are small foreign factions rated on size the way bonds are rated for investment grade?

"We are a small foreign faction. Previously, we had been a medium sized foreign faction, but since we tend to spend more on capers than we demand in ransom, we've lost members and have been downgraded to SFF."

No foreign faction would describe itself as small, or probably even as a foreign faction.