Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

[downport]

Nobody covers up an accident.
Nobody parties & celebrates freedom after an accidental death.
What's so new or different about a cold blooded killer ? Spend 1 day watching the ID network.
She's just another killer.

 

[Harmony 2]

Bumping and merging

 

[2door73chevy]

I didn't vote because I don't know if it was on accident or on purpose. At the minimum, I think if it were accidental whatever the accidental reason she could not call 911 because neglect would be found forensically both on Caylee and Casey. I've wondered if perhaps ICA was on any kind of drugs or drugs could be found in her system if she had been tested during those 31 days. I also think whatever may have been found in Caylee's system was so bad it was worth ICA allowing her remains to fully decompose until becoming skeletonized.

I'm sorry to have even typed that but those are the things that cross my mind that I know only ICA has answers too.

Maybe deep down I just don't want to admit that ICA purposely murdered her child when there were so many other options. For example, think of all of the children who go into the foster system and are eventually adopted where the biological family is denied being able to foster or adopt. ICA could have made up these same lies about her father and brother (and probably come up with a few more) to ensure her family would loss all legal rights to Caylee. (If ICA wanted to be really spiteful).

I also think if this were really an accidental drowning ICA would be the type of person to want to wallow in all the pity and sympathy she would have gained as a mother. Leaving no room for any reasoning on the choices she made. She would have been back to the one being coddled with all the attention, not sitting in jail for the last three years.
all jmo

I agree with bolded!

 

[Steft50]

I voted that she killed Caylee on purpose although I have always hoped that is was an accident. There is just to much circumstanial evidence that is saying other wise. I would love to be proved wrong!

 

[aeneas1]

Nobody covers up an accident. Nobody parties & celebrates freedom after an accidental death. What's so new or different about a cold blooded killer? Spend 1 day watching the ID network. She's just another killer.

and what's so new or different about a mother killing her child? according to available studies, a child is killed by a parent every 3-5 days in the u.s. - some suggest that the frequency is much higher... yep, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as in this case.

 

[Curious Me]

There's some reason the car had such high levels of chloroform. There's also searches on a computer for how to make it.

Ricardo mentioned rather strongly that the times he saw Casey irritated with Caylee was when she was trying to get Caylee to sleep. We all have gathered how easily frustrated and angry Casey gets. Poor Caylee.

I see more that supports chloroform than I do a pool accident. A chloroform accident doesn't seem as likely as premeditated. She definitely resented her Mother to the point of murder perhaps. Plus, she needed to get to Blockbuster and TonE. She had a chance to be a shot girl leader, and Caylee was going to ruin that, too.

 

[ladylurker]

and what's so new or different about a mother killing her child? according to available studies, a child is killed by a parent every 3-5 days in the u.s. - some suggest that the frequency is much higher... yep, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as in this case.

ITA. it is really unfortunate, but it is heartbreakingly true. and the number of parents who abuse/neglect their children is staggering. i think many of us do not want to even think about how someone could be like this, but unfortunately... it is a large number of people who just take out all their own issues on their children. none of us want to believe it's true, but enough of us come from severely screwed-up families that we know better.

that grin she had on her face when the story first broke... that clenched it for me that this was NOT an accident. that made me sick. i knew something was not right. the 31 days being reduced to "ugly coping" is one thing. but grinning outright?? no, no, no. that is not how you react to the accidental death of your child. of ANY child! did any of us, upon hearing this news story, find ANYTHING to smile about? NO. even though we didn't know caylee, we were immediately brokenhearted over the circumstances of this story. her own mother, grinning like that.... oh, poor little caylee, it makes me ill to think about. :sick:

 

[Who_What_When]

I don’t know! I absolutely believe that Casey is responsible for Caylee’s death, but I don’t know how. Was it murder or an accident? At this time if I was on the jury I don’t know if I would be able to convict her on Murder 1 as they haven’t been able to prove for certain how she was killed. I had really hoped the prosecution had more evidence of a murder and not just a cover up, but unfortunately they found Caylee too late. Yes, I know why would anyone cover up an accident...I can honestly say that is the best evidence that they have showing this was intentional. If she gets Murder 1, I think it will be because of her actions after June 16th not before. I just hope the Jury sees it that way.

 

[txsvicki]

On purpose, premeditated as the state has charged. More and more proves it. The drugging to go party doesn't fit. She always has to be a victim. Was most likely plotting an abduction with her getting injured, but just didn't want to miss the Fusion event, so thought it could wait a bit, and didn't count on the smell. The big thefts from family were being discovered and it looks like one about to be discovered by Cindy, so that was the main motive. To become a victim, create distraction, get sympathy, and get forgiven of the thefts. Same MO as before Caylee's death and the same behavior now even while on trial.

 

[LongtimeMedic]

I'm not disagreeing either… just typing out loud. I guess the point I was trying to make is that if there was no water in Caylee's lungs then that shows that the tape was applied before she "drowned." IOW, the duct tape really paints the defense into a corner because (and I'm not a scientist so I don't know for sure) if it was applied prior to the supposed drowning then Caylee would not have drowned, she would have suffocated, and if it was applied after then the water could not have exited her lungs. Hope I'm making at least a little sense here.

In most child drownings they sink face down, tilting down. The head weighs the most, causing a predictable descent pattern. This typically results in very little to no water in the lungs (in that typical position of descent the air in the lungs disallows water to enter) because air is already there. In the initial drowning event (thrashing etc. if that even occurs) acute laryngospasm closes the airway before they aspirate much water as the drowning victim "blacks out" and subsequently dies from hypoxia (lack of oxygen). There are some that take on some water, but very little from what I've seen. Most doubtfully enough for trace evidence in most occurrences.

 

[feddup]

In response to the statement I bolded, let's look at what Casey did.

Either before or just after Caylee's death, Casey put triple layers of duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose. Even in your best case scenario of Casey doing it AFTER Caylee's death, Casey wasn't disassociated enough from her actions, which involved touching Caylee, to miss Caylee's airways. Casey got all 3 pieces of duct tape torn straight, even and untangled (not that easy) and put in the correct place to suffocate.

Casey, at some point, also managed to triple bag Caylee. She wasn't disassociated from Caylee's death or dead body then.

Before she ditched her Pontiac, Casey knew enough to throw three bags, that were shaped like Caylee in a fetal position, AWAY. She managed to get those bags far enough into the woods and brush that they couldn't be SEEN by those walking by. She also wiped up a stinky, coffin fly attracting substance onto paper towels and threw them into the trash in her trunk before June 27.

Casey knew enough NOT to come into the Anthony house while her family was IN it for 31 days. She wasn't so disassociated that she thought *that* would be a good thing to do. During the 31 days, Casey managed to plot out and finesse getting Cindy out of the house so she could sneak in , she made up "working in Tampa", "getting back together with Jeff", "being in Jacksonville" and "Jeff's mother's wedding"--all to her advantage.

Tiger Woods and Jesse James didn't think they were "working" when they visited their mistresses, no matter what they told their wives. I don't believe Casey thought she was "working" when she spent day after day, for over a year, talking & texting on her cell phone and watching her "stories" in the Anthony house. Nor do I believe Casey really thought Caylee was "visiting theme parks with Zanny", even though that is what Casey told people.

Even during the time Casey "ugly coped" with Tony and Fusian, she was fully able to triple bag Caylee's body, get the body out of her parent's house (out of her parent's sight), stuff the body into her car trunk (so Tony couldn't see it), get the body out of her car (according to her text to Amy her car smelled like something dead) and dispose of the body where it couldn't be seen.

All of Casey's actions and stories benefited Casey. I believe that shows she knew what was up.

Even during the time Casey "ugly coped" with Tony and Fusian, she was fully able to triple bag Caylee's body, get the body out of her parent's house (out of her parent's sight), stuff the body into her car trunk (so Tony couldn't see it), get the body out of her car (according to her text to Amy her car smelled like something dead) and dispose of the body where it couldn't be seen.

I think that is the key, her going out of her way to tell Amy her car smelled and she thought she ran over a squirrel.......otherwise, she wouldve just thought it was the garbage, right?
She KNEW what that smell was and started making excuses for it. And then, ditching the car like she hoped it would be stolen. Its all very strange. Surely, TL wouldve gotten some gas for her so she didnt have to just leave it there. She is just so weird. I do think she needs psychiatric assesments. Its too late for poor Caylee though

Forgot! Experts testified they went all over the bottom of the car....no dead animal.

 

[TorisMom003]

I voted on purpose. I don't believe that KC used any chloroform on Caylee. Yes I do believe there was chloroform in the trunk of the car but I believe that was spilled by accident by KC, and before it was spilled KC had planned on using it on her parents. I believe that KC was able to hold down Caylee to apply the three pieces of duct tape across her mouth and nose. I believe the searches on the computer for neck breaking, shovels, household weapons, etc were searches for how to kill her parents after she knocked them out with the chloroform. I believe that KC is a very evil person that feels no sorrow or regret for her actions and if given the chance she will kill again.

 

[faefrost]

Nobody outright LIES to a jury about an accident. sorry but any and all doubts I might have had about how or why Caylee died ended for the last time today when LDB gave notice about KC's fellow inmate April Whalen and how disturbingly similar (IDENTICAL) her real life story of tragedy is to the pool drownin gtale that JB told in hos opening statement. KC just borrowed a story to build one of her lies yet again.

 

[Beccaboo]

As I told hubby the night this story broke and we heard Caylee had been "missing for 31" days, she killed that baby and it was no accident. Everything I have learned over the last 3 years has reinforced that belief. In the words of the wise Dr. G. there is never any reason to put duct tape anywhere on a childs head if she died accidentally. I have always felt Caylee was not the original target, or was a secondary target. I truly believe she was planning on offing her parents, but could never muster up the guts.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

I think it was an accidental drowning.

The states burden is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that KC is guilty of premeditated murder.

They did a great job of proving KC is a liar, but being a liar does not make someone a premeditated murderer.

When and where and how did KC murder Caylee? The duct tape and chloroform are allegedly the how, but there is reasonable doubt attached to both of these. Leaving where and when unanswered may be legal to do, but leaves room for doubt with the jury if this can't be answered. In the states CIC the where and when were not addressed.

Why did she do it? So she could Party. pretty weak motive.

The white trash bag from the trunk. This sat in a dumpster for 18 hours. This evidence and the bug evidence inside have a strong potential of being compromised from other insects that were in the dumpster prior to the white trash bag being in there. The single leg of the important fly would be included in this, and that leg was the major factor in the scenario of what might have happened in Dr. Haskell's report.

The single hair with apparent decomp cannot be determined to have come from a dead person or a live person according to the FBI. The death band usually takes 3 months or longer to form, but has apparently been found to form earlier than that.

The heart shaped sticker residue no longer exists according to the FBI.

Chloroform levels in trunk carpet were normal according to FBI. Air sample claims shockingly high levels of chloroform. However, the chemist says that the test was not a quantative test, so how can they determine a high level of chloroform if they do not know how much chloroform was in there? I may confused on this particular issue, however, one of more of the jurors may also be confused and if so, then reasonable doubt is here. Also Dr. Vass did not get his own samples, this may be important to some jurors.

The lack of flies and casings in the trunk. Yes a lot of flies flew out when GA and SB opened trunk, however, there should have been many (100's if not 1,000's) of dead flies and there should have been many, many casings. GA and CA testified they did not vacuum the car, and their vacuums were picked up with a search warrant, and nothing was found.

The fatty substance like adipocere on the paper towels. Adipocere can form in as little as 3 days, but normally takes at least 2 to 3 weeks to start forming. Butterfat contains myristic, palmitic, stearic, oleic, linoleic, and palmitoleic acids basically the same fatty acids that are found in the substance like adipocere on the paper towels. Visually bacon grease can easily be mistaken for adipocere, but a simple test can easily prove which it is. If a libs test proving this was adipocere was brought up in trial I missed it.

The stain in the carpet of the trunk. Scrapings of traces of butyric acid were found in the carpet. Butyric acid can be found in butter, parmesan cheese, and vomit. What exactly caused the stain in the trunk carpet, could it have been vomit? Not in evidence, but then neither is decomp fluid.

One botonist says the remains could have been placed in their final resting spot as late as the 4th week in November. JA's demeanor and facial expressions say he feels he disproved this with his cross, but what does the jury think?

The superimposed duct tape over the nose and mouth, with KC in the background definately proved this was a possibility. However, I think this could have easily been explained without the visual, and that the video may have been taken as an act of desperation from a prosecution that has not been able to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

The state seemingly has wanted evidence legally supressed because of JB's failures to get his experts to file reports. The jury may see this as the state trying to hide something, because most people think that the state wants to find out the truth, and suppressing potential evidence does not look good.

Dr. S. vs. Dr. G. testimonies if even one of the jurors found credence in the opinion of the extremely experienced Dr. S. there could be a hung jury on his opinion alone. Seems like there is some pretty good reasonable doubt attached to the testimony that Caylee's skull was laying on her left side during decomposition.

Two cadaver dogs each alerted once in near the same place in the back yard one day, but the next day neither alerted. That doesn't make any sense when the prosecution is claiming the unmistakeable odor of death lasts for years, in this part of the case, it didn't even last until the next day.

GB legally destroyed his notes. Legal or not, it makes me wonder whether or not he scraped food off the containers in the white trash bag.

The odor in the trunk. Until the alternate light source showed potential human decomp in the trunk, NO ONE'S actions were those of any professional personel who knew beyond a reasonable doubt what human decomp smells like vs. a trash bag sitting in a trunk for 3 weeks in the hot Florida sun.

Not only do I think the state has not proven their case, I think at this time roughly halfway through the dt's side of the case, I think it is a hung jury for sure, and if it keeps going the way it has, there is going to be a pretty good possiblity of an acquittal.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[passionflower]

As to Casey being a "loving mother". I am kind of reminded of Ted Bundy. Everyone that knew Ted thought he was an up standing guy. Ann Rule a former police officer who wrote a book on Ted pretty much says the same. It wasn't until his trial that she realized the true monster he was. Yet many of Ted's family members can recall incidents of disturbing behavior. It should also be noted that Ted was a compulsive thief.

A few notes on female serial killers from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer#Female_serial_killers

1. An analysis of 86 female serial killers from the U.S. found that the victims tended to be spouses, children or the elderly.

2. They commit killings in specific places, such as their home

3. The most common motive identified was material gain.

4. The methods they use for murder are covert or low-profile

5. In a study of 105 female serial killers, the preferred method of killing was poisoning.

1. Caylee was Casey's child, 2. The body was found near the home and cadaver dogs hit at the home, 3. Casey made comments about getting her parents house and went on shopping sprees after Caylee was "missing", 4. Computer searches for chloroform, house hold weapons, and neck braking, 5. Duct Tape and chloroform are suspected as "weapons" in this case.

I'm not saying Casey is a serial killer.....but......... I certainly think it points to this killing being intentional over an accident.

Thank goodness ICA was stopped because IMO, she had 'plans' for GA and CA to gain the house, freedom and money..............JMOO
Caylee's death was no accident. IMO Caylee wouldn't stop talking or crying.
ICA went into a rage and doped her up then put duct tape intentionally on Caylees face. Caylee died and ICA drove around wondering what to do with the smelly trash and dumped it with other trash. Not a care in the world.
Poor baby Caylee. Then JB, his private eyes, and GA/CA KNEW where Caylee was before RoyK. They let that baby rot and it makes me so mad!

 

[Dysthymia]

I am not convinced by any of the evidence that Casey intentionally killed Caylee and some of the evidence that was allowed into the trial doesn't seem to be fair. An example is the heart shaped residue that was noticed by an FBI witness which she showed to a supervisor but neither one of them photographs this piece of evidence. She is allowed to testify about it but the jury is expected to take her word that the heart shaped residue was there and it was from a heart shaped sticker that links back to Casey. That seemed to me to be no kind of evidence at all. Another piece of evidence that the prosecution used was the picture of Caylee AND Casey in which the witness made an animation (my word, I'm not sure what word to use here)of Caylee's skull to move over her little face and then put the duct tape over her face (beside the picture of Casey) to show the what they thought must have happened. This witness said he pulled a picture of Caylee off the internet to use. But he chose to use a photo of both Caylee (morphed into a skull with duct tape over her mouth and nose)and Casey side by side. It just didn't "sit right" with me because I felt that animation was not required at all to show their theory of what happened.

I just don't see anything that tells me that Casey planned and murdered Caylee Marie Anthony. I think that Casey caused Caylee's death (truthfully, who else was there?) but I don't believe she meant to kill her. I think she loved Caylee. I also think that if she wanted rid of her child, she would have just given her to Cindy and George.

I don't believe in the death penalty and it shocks me that so many people are so positive that they know that this woman is guilty of premeditated murder and that she should have her life terminated by the state.

Just my opinion

 

[passionflower]

ICA was/is jealous of the attention everyone gave Caylee and she came in last.
MOTIVE IMO

 

[MissJames]

Nobody outright LIES to a jury about an accident. sorry but any and all doubts I might have had about how or why Caylee died ended for the last time today when LDB gave notice about KC's fellow inmate April Whalen and how disturbingly similar (IDENTICAL) her real life story of tragedy is to the pool drownin gtale that JB told in hos opening statement. KC just borrowed a story to build one of her lies yet again.

When I heard LDB explain the new discovery to the Court about this story ,I had a flashback to JB saying we would all understand when the truth came out.
Yep,I understand,JB. :maddening:

 

[chelle70]

As I told hubby the night this story broke and we heard Caylee had been "missing for 31" days, she killed that baby and it was no accident. Everything I have learned over the last 3 years has reinforced that belief. In the words of the wise Dr. G. there is never any reason to put duct tape anywhere on a childs head if she died accidentally. I have always felt Caylee was not the original target, or was a secondary target. I truly believe she was planning on offing her parents, but could never muster up the guts.

Maybe this April Whelan's story was overheard by ICA, but don't forget Cindy kinda set up the lie with leaving the pool ladder up story and such.