accident?

[rashomon]

[rashomon]:
I believe that the wrist ligatures and duct tape were the last pieces of staging done on JB's body in the basement.

Blankets?

I think the blanket which was found on JB had nothing to do with staging anymore.
Imo JB's dead body finally being placed in the wine cellar was the result of the Ramseys' inabilty to carry out their plans.
The Ramseys may have used the blanket to carry JB's body down into the basement to prevent forensic evidence transfer (and interestingly enough, fibers from Patsy's jacket were found on the blanket too), but their covering JB's body with it in the wine cellar was probably an impulsive act similar to what is done to dead bodies at crime scenes or accident sites after the victim has been pronounced dead: the body is covered.

 

[coloradokares]

Rashomon you say that Patsy's fibers were on the blanket too. The blanket was downstairs. I did not think Patsy went downstairs. I believe John Ramsey when he carried JonBenet upstairs did not bring that blanket......I don't believe I am mistaken in this.:waitasec:

I think the blanket which was found on JB had nothing to do with staging anymore.
Imo JB's dead body finally being placed in the wine cellar was the result of the Ramseys' inabilty to carry out their plans.
The Ramseys may have used the blanket to carry JB's body down into the basement to prevent forensic evidence transfer (and interestingly enough, fibers from Patsy's jacket were found on the blanket too), but their covering JB's body with it in the wine cellar was probably an impulsive act similar to what is done to dead bodies at crime scenes or accident sites after the victim has been pronounced dead: the body is covered.

 

[UKGuy]

I think the blanket which was found on JB had nothing to do with staging anymore.
Imo JB's dead body finally being placed in the wine cellar was the result of the Ramseys' inabilty to carry out their plans.
The Ramseys may have used the blanket to carry JB's body down into the basement to prevent forensic evidence transfer (and interestingly enough, fibers from Patsy's jacket were found on the blanket too), but their covering JB's body with it in the wine cellar was probably an impulsive act similar to what is done to dead bodies at crime scenes or accident sites after the victim has been pronounced dead: the body is covered.

rashomon,

I think the blanket which was found on JB had nothing to do with staging anymore.

With time you may wish to revise this? Nothing that was left in the wine-cellar associated with JonBenet arrived there by accident, including the blankets. I may be wrong but its just as valid to suggest that the blankets were a deliberate attempt to imply JonBenet had been abducted directly from her bed, wrapped in the blankets?

Also her her body was not covered only her torso, her arms, head and legs were visible.

The blankets represent an important piece of forensic evidence, not least for estimating the onset of rigor-mortis etc, and also for ruling out other acts.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

With time you may wish to revise this? Nothing that was left in the wine-cellar associated with JonBenet arrived there by accident, including the blankets. I may be wrong but its just as valid to suggest that the blankets were a deliberate attempt to imply JonBenet had been abducted directly from her bed, wrapped in the blankets?

Also her her body was not covered only her torso, her arms, head and legs were visible.

The blankets represent an important piece of forensic evidence, not least for estimating the onset of rigor-mortis etc, and also for ruling out other acts.

UKGuy,

No doubt the blanket represents an important piece of evidence, especially since fibers from Patsy's jacket were found on it too.
Btw, why do you say blankets? Was there more than one blanket in the wine cellar?
But if the blanket was meant to suggest a kidnapping - I'm not sure if a kidnapper would have kept (or have been able to keep) a child of JB's size in a blanket when abducting her. A kidnapper would probably just have snatched the child and be gone with her.
It is dead bodies who are normally wrapped in blankets (or plastic bags or whatever) - bodies the perp wants to dispose of without people noticing the deadly freight.
Maybe that's what the Ramseys wanted to do at some stage - dump JB's body outside, wrapped in the blanket? But then decided against it for some reason?
It has been theorized that maybe lovingly wrapping the child in a blanket was some final parental act of 'undoing' the crime. But JB obviuosy was not tucked in, but the blanket merely thrown on top of the body, covering only the torso. Imo this does not point to an act of undoing on the part of the parents.

 

[ellen13]

UKGuy,

No doubt the blanket represents an important piece of evidence, especially since fibers from Patsy's jacket were found on it too.
Btw, why do you say blankets? Was there more than one blanket in the wine cellar?
But if the blanket was meant to suggest a kidnapping - I'm not sure if a kidnapper would have kept (or have been able to keep) a child of JB's size in a blanket when abducting her. A kidnapper would probably just have snatched the child and be gone with her.
It is dead bodies who are normally wrapped in blankets (or plastic bags or whatever) - bodies the perp wants to dispose of without people noticing the deadly freight.
Maybe that's what the Ramseys wanted to do at some stage - dump JB's body outside, wrapped in the blanket? But then decided against it for some reason?
It has been theorized that maybe lovingly wrapping the child in a blanket was some final parental act of 'undoing' the crime. But JB obviuosy was not tucked in, but the blanket merely thrown on top of the body, covering only the torso. Imo this does not point to an act of undoing on the part of the parents.

what about her red fibers found in the paint tray. she said she never wore the sweater around the paint tray in the basement.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

No doubt the blanket represents an important piece of evidence, especially since fibers from Patsy's jacket were found on it too.
Btw, why do you say blankets? Was there more than one blanket in the wine cellar?
But if the blanket was meant to suggest a kidnapping - I'm not sure if a kidnapper would have kept (or have been able to keep) a child of JB's size in a blanket when abducting her. A kidnapper would probably just have snatched the child and be gone with her.
It is dead bodies who are normally wrapped in blankets (or plastic bags or whatever) - bodies the perp wants to dispose of without people noticing the deadly freight.
Maybe that's what the Ramseys wanted to do at some stage - dump JB's body outside, wrapped in the blanket? But then decided against it for some reason?
It has been theorized that maybe lovingly wrapping the child in a blanket was some final parental act of 'undoing' the crime. But JB obviuosy was not tucked in, but the blanket merely thrown on top of the body, covering only the torso. Imo this does not point to an act of undoing on the part of the parents.

rashomon,

Yes, there was more than one blanket in the wine-cellar. The blanket was wrapped papoose style around her torso, but then again that is a JR description.

It has been theorized that maybe lovingly wrapping the child in a blanket

Is oxymoronic a word that describes that phrase? Because after whacking her about the head and face, strangling, and garotting her, including a sexual assault, she is maybe lovingly wrapped in a blanket, somehow that does not make any sense at all!

Maybe that's what the Ramseys wanted to do at some stage - dump JB's body outside, wrapped in the blanket? But then decided against it for some reason?

Seems possible, but my guess is she would have been wrapped in more than a blanket?


.

 

[UKGuy]

what about her red fibers found in the paint tray. she said she never wore the sweater around the paint tray in the basement.

ellen13,

Well with no evidence indicating an intruder this evidence links her to the crime-scene, plain and simple.

Curiously thinking about red-sweaters was the balled up one Patsy's or JonBenet's ?


.

 

[coloradokares]

The balled up sweater was JonBenet's. Patsy was wearing hers either worn yet again that morning. Or still worn depending on if you feel she had gone to bed that night.

ellen13,

Well with no evidence indicating an intruder this evidence links her to the crime-scene, plain and simple.

Curiously thinking about red-sweaters was the balled up one Patsy's or JonBenet's ?


.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

Yes, there was more than one blanket in the wine-cellar. The blanket was wrapped papoose style around her torso, but then again that is a JR description.

You mean JB was actually wrapped in two blankets?
It is also somewhat strange for John to describe the wrapping as papoose style when both JB's arms and legs were left sticking out.
Do you know if Fleet White confirmed John's description?

Is oxymoronic a word that describes that phrase? Because after whacking her about the head and face, strangling, and garotting her, including a sexual assault, she is maybe lovingly wrapped in a blanket, somehow that does not make any sense at all!

The phrase may sound oxymoronic, something like 'cruel kindness' on the part of the parents who after bashing their child's head in and staging the scene, then lovingly tuck her in a blanket.
But it can often be observed that parents who have killed their children do just that: wrap them in a blanket, tuck them in bed with their favorite plush animal etc.
Family killer Jeffrey MacDonald for example, after stabbing his 2-year-old child to death in her own bed, covered her with a blanket and put a baby bottle of chocolate milk next to her mouth.

There seems to be one of the Freudian psychological subconscious defense mechanisms at work: "undoing".
While such behavior may not make sense from a rational point of view, it fulfills a psychological need for the person behaving like that.

 

[BBB167893]

Rashomon you say that Patsy's fibers were on the blanket too. The blanket was downstairs. I did not think Patsy went downstairs. I believe John Ramsey when he carried JonBenet upstairs did not bring that blanket......I don't believe I am mistaken in this.

You aren't.

It is also somewhat strange for John to describe the wrapping as papoose style when both JB's arms and legs were left sticking out.

Yes, it is.

 

[coloradokares]

Super Dave you know what that would imply. For those fibers to be on those blankets when the blankets were downstairs covering the body of JonBenet. Patsy never having gone downstairs. Blankets left downstairs. :waitasec: :doh: I think Patsy had on some magical clothes two days in a row that had flying fibers or....Patsy was never held to account to explain why her fibers were on those blankets. Or Boulders DA was never going to prosecute no matter what.


Rashomon you say that Patsy's fibers were on the blanket too. The blanket was downstairs. I did not think Patsy went downstairs. I believe John Ramsey when he carried JonBenet upstairs did not bring that blanket......I don't believe I am mistaken in this.

You aren't.



Yes, it is.

 

[Rupert]

Smit said it was premeditated murder (sure looks that way to me)
Smit said a stun gun was used (R's had a stun gun video)
Then we have that easter purple thing entwined in Christmas.

Maybe that's where the mystery is. Why UK?

 

[JMO8778]

You mean JB was actually wrapped in two blankets?
It is also somewhat strange for John to describe the wrapping as papoose style when both JB's arms and legs were left sticking out.
Do you know if Fleet White confirmed John's description?

The phrase may sound oxymoronic, something like 'cruel kindness' on the part of the parents who after bashing their child's head in and staging the scene, then lovingly tuck her in a blanket.
But it can often be observed that parents who have killed their children do just that: wrap them in a blanket, tuck them in bed with their favorite plush animal etc.
Family killer Jeffrey MacDonald for example, after stabbing his 2-year-old child to death in her own bed, covered her with a blanket and put a baby bottle of chocolate milk next to her mouth.

There seems to be one of the Freudian psychological subconscious defense mechanisms at work: "undoing".
While such behavior may not make sense from a rational point of view, it fulfills a psychological need for the person behaving like that.

I think I recall hearing (back when Susan Smith drowned her kids),that when mothers kill their children,they tend to be found in water, or wrapped in plastic..sort of 'sending them back to the womb' sort of thing I guess,as a matter of unconcious denial.Putting JB in water or plastic was implausable to the kind of scenerio needed to stage this crime, so the 'papoose' style of wrapping JB does make sense that a parent did this (if she was wrapped that way,I find it interesting JR says she was),mainly a woman I think.(I'm not a trained expert so don't quote me,but I think it was the FBI that said it).

 

[UKGuy]

You mean JB was actually wrapped in two blankets?
It is also somewhat strange for John to describe the wrapping as papoose style when both JB's arms and legs were left sticking out.
Do you know if Fleet White confirmed John's description?

The phrase may sound oxymoronic, something like 'cruel kindness' on the part of the parents who after bashing their child's head in and staging the scene, then lovingly tuck her in a blanket.
But it can often be observed that parents who have killed their children do just that: wrap them in a blanket, tuck them in bed with their favorite plush animal etc.
Family killer Jeffrey MacDonald for example, after stabbing his 2-year-old child to death in her own bed, covered her with a blanket and put a baby bottle of chocolate milk next to her mouth.

There seems to be one of the Freudian psychological subconscious defense mechanisms at work: "undoing".
While such behavior may not make sense from a rational point of view, it fulfills a psychological need for the person behaving like that.

rashomon,
Well some say Freud suffered from an inferiority complex due to being an unfulfilled son of a strict religious father. He dabbled extensively with cocaine, hence his Pleasure Principle, so he created the Church of Psychiatry which instead of believing in objects existing beyond our present world, he predicates their existence inside your head? When it comes to explaining forensic evidence I dont find Freudian Theory much help.

Here are some quotes regarding the blanket topic:

Lou Smit and John Ramsey

9 MIKE KANE: Okay. Now when you went around
10 to the wine cellar door, you said you pulled at it
11 and, I think you said, that you were surprised
12 that it was latched?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: I just said I remember pulling
14 on it almost popping out of hand because it's
15 always been open. And I don't think the latch was
16 latched.
17 MIKE KANE: I think you said, (I didn't expect
18 it to be latched.˜ Was it normally not?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd say, I mean, the door was
20 kind of stuck anyway, so it wasn't common to latch
21 it.
22 MIKE KANE: Did that latch, and I've seen
23 pictures of it, it was on like a pivot?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: It was on a block of wood.
25 MIKE KANE: A block of wood, but it was
0182
1 pivoted?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
3 MIKE KANE: Was it enough that it would fall
4 down on its own or did you have to physically turn
5 it?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you had to physically
7 turn it.
8 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you
9 went inside to that room, you described the
10 blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm
11 just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it
12 like --
13 JOHN RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.
14 MIKE KANE: Okay.
15 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under
16 her completely. It was brought up and folded over
17 like
18 that.
19 MIKE KANE: Folded over, okay.
20 JOHN RAMSEY: It looked like, at that time
21 I didn't know the extent of the injuries, but it
22 looked like somebody had just put her there
23 comfortably, but tied up with her mouth gagged.
24 MIKE KANE: And John, I really understand
25 how difficult this is. Do you remember, was her
0183
1 head exposed? Were her feet exposed?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Possibly.
3 MIKE KANE: But not the rest of her?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, yeah, I think her
5 feet were exposed. But her head was. Her head was
6 tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head.
7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
10 apart?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
14 were close together.

.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Well some say Freud suffered from an inferiority complex due to being an unfulfilled son of a strict religious father. He dabbled extensively with cocaine, hence his Pleasure Principle, so he created the Church of Psychiatry which instead of believing in objects existing beyond our present world, he predicates their existence inside your head? When it comes to explaining forensic evidence I dont find Freudian Theory much help.

UKGuy,

Freudian theory may not be helpful in terms of explaining the forensic evidence itself (which is the lab techs' and investigators' job), but it is very helpful to explain behavior which may have been the reason for the forensic evidence being there.
Freud was the first one to point out that we are far more determined by our subconscious impulses that we'd like to admit.
Defense mechanisms like denial, projection, undoing, identification, blocking something out etc, are being used in daily life by us all. These Freudian categories are universally accepted in modern psychology too.
Unlike other parts of Freud's theory which indeed sound outdated today (his opinions on female sexuality for example - Freud's thinking was strongly formed by the patriarchal 19th century, in that sense he was a product of his time), his defense mechanism theory has endured.

And it seems to be a fact (confirmed by forensic psychiatrists and criminal profilers) that many parents who have killed their children, later in some way try to 'undo' the crime.

And when you read what John said about the blanket (it obviously was only one blanket, not two) in the sources you gave, imo this would confirm an 'undoing' scenario on the part of the parents. Words can be very revealing.
Not only did John mention to Mike Kane that it looked like someone had put JB there "comfortably", he also told Lou Smit that
"the blanket was brought up around her, tucking her in and ah, but ah" .
Very telling imo.
According to John, JB was lying on the blanket, on her back, and the blanket was wrapped around her. JB's head, feet and hands were visible.

Thanks UKGuy, for giving the link in your # 114 post to the Smit interview and the excerpt from John's interview with M. Kane. I get a clearer picture now of how JB was found in the wine cellar.

 

[BBB167893]

Someone here mentioned that one of the FBI men who worked on the Susan Smith case is a very definite RDI. Wish I could remember more.

 

[Eagle1]

Someone here mentioned that one of the FBI men who worked on the Susan Smith case is a very definite RDI. Wish I could remember more.

Maybe you made a note of the source somewhere, SD?

 

[BBB167893]

Wish I had!

 

[Solace]

Wish I had!

SuperDave,

I am backtracking a bit, about a week ago, there was a post on Catherine Crier and a guest by the name of Moriarity and the slot was about the dna under the fingernails matching the dna in the underwear.

You replied this comes from the Ramsey camp and said it was given to them by Grey and San Augustin. Do you think you could tell me where you got this info. I am not disputing it, I just want to back it up to someone who does not believe. Thanks SuperDave.

 

[kaykay]

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but I'm thinking someone spread a
blanket on the floor laid JB's on top.

Would her head be pointed to a corner and her feet to a corner the two side corners covered her?

I think the ladies on here will know what I'm talking about, like you would wrap an infant, but of course JB would be too big to wrap that way so her feet and head would be uncovered. Oh, and her arms too becauce they were above her head.

JR said her arms were close together, if JB's body was in full rigor mortis shouldn't they have been close together when JR carried her up from the basement? They were above her head but not close together.


If this scenario is correct, I truly beleive this is what Patsy would do. The last loving thing she would do for her child. This style is a woman thing.

Oh, lawdy I wish I had spell checker on here. You people are so intelligent and write wonderfully.

kaykay :twocents:

JMO