AK AK - Steve Keel, 61, missing from hunting trip, from TN - Aug 27, 2022

[RickshawFan]

Question, or a few, about muskeg: What Is the primary danger? Is it drowning? Or getting stuck?
Is it like a swamp and sucks you down to where you can’t get out?
How deep are they?
I’ve read up on muskeg a little, but havent really found the answers for this question. TIA

If you got stuck in it, you'd be hugging permafrost, thick layer of ice. Very quick hypothermia.

 

[5W's]

The RECCO tech has been around for decades.

Cellphone circuitboards have not been. In the last two decades gradually cellphones have caught on. Remember, cellphones used to be bulky at that time when they first came out. So this is a new application. So since it is new it should be utilized. The clothing patches are also a new application. The technology to utilize the clothing pathces for RECCO is welcome. As for metal such as detecting the glock sure why not. Maybe the technology for that is better than it was decades ago.

 

[5W's]

Short answer. None.

But perhaps RECCO.
I am quoting my own post: #733. IDK which order hey show up in so I guess its part of post #733 that I'm quoting.
Cellphone circuitboards have not been. In the last two decades gradually cellphones have caught on. Remember, cellphones used to be bulky at that time when they first came out. So this is a new application. So since it is new it should be utilized. The clothing patches are also a new application. The technology to utilize the clothing pathces for RECCO is welcome. As for metal such as detecting the glock sure why not. Maybe the technology for that is better than it was decades ago.

 

[LauraAnne]

I wonder if the cadaver dogs weren't used because their paws might get hurt with the foilage on the ground? If Steve happened to fall into a muskeg what other methods could be used to see if he is in one of them?

I don't know. There is that one volunteer searcher who was using his dog and not having any problems with it that I could see. I got the impression that due to the great expense and effort involved with searching that extremely remote area, and the chances that finding him alive are very slim, and there's no apparent criminal involvement in his disappearance, publicly funded search agencies didn't feel it was a justifiable search. And their budgets are limited, so it is understandable. Sad as that is.

 

[crcgirl]

The SAR spent a lot of money on the initial search with the use of aircraft. They deemed it too risky for both dogs and people to do a ground search which I think would have been cheaper.

 

[5W's]

I don't know. There is that one volunteer searcher who was using his dog and not having any problems with it that I could see. I got the impression that due to the great expense and effort involved with searching that extremely remote area, and the chances that finding him alive are very slim, and there's no apparent criminal involvement in his disappearance, publicly funded search agencies didn't feel it was a justifiable search. And their budgets are limited, so it is understandable. Sad as that is.

Well I have a couple of questions about the muskegs. First of all would clothing float to the top. Would the gases in a decomposing body bring the body to the top like in water? I realize that muskeg is acidic so it obviously has a different composition and different reactions may occur with those same gases of a decomposing body inside of a muskeg. But the law of physics would still apply though I would think. So definately IMO if Steve happened to slip into a muskeg perhaps clothing that may become detached would flot to the top. Depending on the depth of the muskeg I would imagine another way to check for a body may be to to use a long rod, maybe collapsable. How deep are the muskeg in that area? If they are young muskeg then they are not as deep as old muskeg.
Just some info on muskeg

Muskeg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[WingsOverTX]

Well I have a couple of questions about the muskegs. First of all would clothing float to the top. Would the gases in a decomposing body bring the body to the top like in water? I realize that muskeg is acidic so it obviously has a different composition and different reactions may occur with those same gases of a decomposing body inside of a muskeg. But the law of physics would still apply though I would think. So definately IMO if Steve happened to slip into a muskeg perhaps clothing that may become detached would flot to the top. Depending on the depth of the muskeg I would imagine another way to check for a body may be to to use a long rod, maybe collapsable. How deep are the muskeg in that area? If they are young muskeg then they are not as deep as old muskeg.
Just some info on muskeg

Muskeg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Personal experience of the perils:

Planet Alaska: Muskeg Love | Juneau Empire

Muskeg life is wet, mushy, juicy, fleshy, tangy, glabrous, globose and glandular.

www.juneauempire.com

 

[RickshawFan]

Personal experience of the perils:

Planet Alaska: Muskeg Love | Juneau Empire

Muskeg life is wet, mushy, juicy, fleshy, tangy, glabrous, globose and glandular.

www.juneauempire.com

That’s a lovely article. It gives such a great idea about how muskeg is, but also what it takes to be in the muskeg. She treats it like a living, breathing thing, respectful, unhurried, working with it to give her bounty.
The absence of being in tune with that special creature (muskeg) perhaps was predictive for the TN hunters’ disaster, making it inevitable.

Also note her need for raingear, top to toe…

 

[RickshawFan]

But perhaps RECCO.
I am quoting my own post: #733. IDK which order hey show up in so I guess its part of post #733 that I'm quoting.
Cellphone circuitboards have not been. In the last two decades gradually cellphones have caught on. Remember, cellphones used to be bulky at that time when they first came out. So this is a new application. So since it is new it should be utilized. The clothing patches are also a new application. The technology to utilize the clothing pathces for RECCO is welcome. As for metal such as detecting the glock sure why not. Maybe the technology for that is better than it was decades ago.

I thought some hard facts might be helpful here to sort this out. The history of RECCO: RECCO - Wikipedia

I haven’t seen any peer-reviewed, data driven, evidence that RECCO detects cell phone circuit boards. There would have to be some overwhelming evidence for it to be viable or practical in a SAR application. Plus, the devices have to be available, budgets and financial considerations apply, operators have to be trained, devices have to be transported to the search site….
There is no evidence either, as far as I can tell, that SK’s search site is within a day’s helicopter ride from where a flyable RECCO is located, and there are obviously not ground personnel to use a handheld model. In fact, there are not folks available to go searching even by walking around: the location is too far away and expensive to get to. Plus, helicopters are allocated by priority for air ambulance services.
And, finally, the RECCO will be allocated to searches where there is a good chance of rescue while live (this was technology designed for avalanches) or a high likelihood of recovery. AK has many situations where that is true. Hard as it is, neither of those situations apply in this case, so the decision not to deploy is very understandable.
IMO the concept of using RECCO in this case is not well-placed. It’s too bad IMO that SK’s friends and family don’t seem to be listening to AK authorities about whys and wherefores, and concentrating on methods that have a greater (though still infinitesimal) likelihood of a find.

 

[annpats]

The cooler has me stumped. It took, what, 4 hours for BC to get from the vehicle to camp? And that seems to have been empty-handed.

That is absolutely crazy! Madness!

And that's without all the other camping and hunting equipment they needed for 2 camps!

I'm surprised they both didn't die from exhaustion!

 

[RickshawFan]

That is absolutely crazy! Madness!

And that's without all the other camping and hunting equipment they needed for 2 camps!

I'm surprised they both didn't die from exhaustion!

They were only in AK 7 days or so, too. I'm thinking there's a lot we don't know because even simple logistics don't make sense.

What evidence do we have that there was a hunting camp used to get them outside the 5 mile requirement from Dalton Highway?

 

[annpats]

They were only in AK 7 days or so, too. I'm thinking there's a lot we don't know because even simple logistics don't make sense.

What evidence do we have that there was a hunting camp used to get them outside the 5 mile requirement from Dalton Highway?

I think this outing was done with minimal research and minimal cost.

But in terrain such as Alaska, if you're cheap with your planning and outlay, it means you're being cheap with your life.

The tents they had don't seem to be stove/chimney tents, so I'm even wondering how they managed to keep warm at night, and how they dried their boots and pants out.

I suppose they just built a fire out in the open from?....well, there were hardly any trees to even get wood from!

Maybe they bought it all in Fairbanks, so they'd have even more to cart around - and wood is heavy too.

Do the regulations even allow hunters to build an open fire on that land they were on?

Sadly, I think the pair of them thought this trip wouldn't be any different to hunting in their local Tennessee.....

I'm sad that Steve lost his life, but as the famous saying goes "If you fail to prepare, then you can prepare to fail..."

 

[RickshawFan]

I think this outing was done with minimal research and minimal cost.

But in terrain such as Alaska, if you're cheap with your planning and outlay, it means you're being cheap with your life.

The tents they had don't seem to be stove/chimney tents, so I'm even wondering how they managed to keep warm at night, and how they dried their boots and pants out.

I suppose they just built a fire out in the open from?....well, there were hardly any trees to even get wood from!

Maybe they bought it all in Fairbanks, so they'd have even more to cart around - and wood is heavy too.

Do the regulations even allow hunters to build an open fire on that land they were on?

Sadly, I think the pair of them thought this trip wouldn't be any different to hunting in their local Tennessee.....

I'm sad that Steve lost his life, but as the famous saying goes "If you fail to prepare, then you can prepare to fail..."

SK's tent was inadequate even for the lower -48. It didn't have a full fly. Actually, the fly on his looks like a little hat. I wouldn't even go car camping with one of those: if it rained or got foggy, you're getting wet. As you sleep through the night and generate sweat, the condensation will start dripping down on you. Cold damp in everything, including your sleeping bag.
The design SK had is prone to getting flattened in the wind (the sides simply keel over), and where he was camping is a very windy location. You'd need a tent that has at least 3 poles, and is shaped specifically to shed wind (these are hoop-shaped or a complex dome tent). AK's state hunting guide even says what kind of tent you need!
Also, you'd put a tarp UNDER the tent to prevent water from seeping in. I didn't see anything like that. And, you'd tie it down with extra guys to keep the wind from blowing it away.
A tent that large is too drafty for one person in cold weather. It's kinda like sleeping in a barn.
The only thing that tent had going for it was the light color: it was easy to see in tundra.
You actually would not need a heater in the temperatures they were camping in. It would go below freezing, but not a lot. You just need an adequate sleeping bag or two. You also need, very specifically, a closed cell insulating mattress under you. Those are the cheap blue things you can buy at a low-cost department store. Mine is 40 years old: indestructible. They are standard cold weather equipment. They are not comfortable, but they can save your life. There are fancier ones, too.
In Chet's videos, he spent a night in SK's tent and demonstrated how inadequate it all was. Even with Chet's own many base layers, he thought he might die that night.

****
Caveat with my statement: I have slept under a pitched tarp through blizzards, freezing nights, and river fog (don't even ask), and managed just fine. I was always warm and dry: if you pitch it right, an overhead tarp can be super nice, and experienced winter campers will use them in snow, partly because you can cook in it (you can't cook in a tent because of CO poisoning). But there were plenty of people around! And SK didn't have the skill to pitch a sleep-tarp correctly, nor the patience, I'll bet. AK tundra would not be a suitable location for this sleep solution.

****
I have no idea if they built a fire. If it had been me, I would have had no fire, but a JetBoil. I would have been able to boil water for instant meals, and fill myself with hot drinks. If I needed to, I could fill my Nalgene with boiling water and hug it for warmth.

 

[RickshawFan]

I think this outing was done with minimal research and minimal cost.

Snipped for focus...

One sign that this was a cost-sensitive trip: there are no locking tags in photos of the antlers. They are required. Non-residents have to pay $650 for caribou locking tags for one animal. That's in addition to permits, licenses, etc.

My source for hunting information and requirements in AK is: https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/regulations/wildliferegulations/pdfs/regulations_complete.pdf

Regular rental cars are not suitable for Dalton Hwy. I'm not sure what the hunters were driving, but what would be indicated, I'm sure, would cost a fortune. How much easier it would have been to have an outfitter handle all the transportation. The hunting camp would have been right at the drop site, too (plane or boat); no need to lug equipment around. You can even rent a whole camp set up from these outfitters. To me, they look deluxe! Folding chairs, large pots, wind-shedding tents... all kinds of things that would contribute to fun and safety. These, indeed, would be the trips of a lifetime.

Not being at all familiar with AK, I'm learning a lot from "Search for Steve: Questions" on FB. The graphic at page top is hands clasped in prayer. Note, this is NOT "Search for Steve". There are Alaskans on there weighing in, and Chet has been actively reproducing SK's scenario in the tundra, including sleeping in his (damp) sleeping bag, with full reports. Hint: he thought he'd die in that tent. He also explores how you get lost in that terrain: easy.

Chet is a good example of what I mean when I say "learn backcountry skills from old-timers". He teaches how to mitigate risk, tundra hazards, appropriate clothing, etc. Case in point: evidently, it took BC 20 days to restore his feet to prior-tundra condition. It was that wet. I doubt he planned for this!

A few minutes later: I have seen $219 quoted per day for a Dalton Highway-adapted rental vehicle. That's without gas, which seems to be about $10 per gallon. A gallon would probably go about 28 miles there (I'm guessing). 7 days= $1500+ and gas for 700 miles would be about $250. There may be taxes on top of that.

 

[RickshawFan]

We're going into fall now, and cooler months. Maybe even winter weather. Maybe some of you are itching to go outdoors and do fun stuff, but wondering how on earth you can get "appropriate clothing" so you can stay safe.

These guidelines are true all year (protocol might be different in desert: I'm not sure).

You will need serious wool/synthetic socks and quality Goretex boots with good support. Buy those: they have to be just right.

Choose fair weather, no trails with snow or ice, unless you have spikes.
Base layers? Go through your athletic wear, like for running. Garment fabrics are always listed on the label inside the left hip. You want NO cotton. You likely can roust up a couple of tops and bottoms in that category. Maybe you have some synthetic leggings that you can use instead of long underwear bottoms. Fleece?
Mid-layers? Go to Goodwill or other thrift store if you don't have anything that will work. Check fabric labels. Look for old-fashioned wool sweaters and wool pants.Synthetic will work, too. You might find an old wool shirt. Goodwill was our solution back in the day for backpacking apparel.
Put a big garbage bag in your pack for use as an emergency rainjacket (make a hole for the head and arms and pull it over your head).
10 essentials: improvise.

Aaaand! Go with an organized group.

Soon, you will need/want context-appropriate clothing like a good rainjacket, sun shirt etc.

Note: SK seems to have been on a very small budget, but he could have gone with this kind of apparel and been much safer. And super cheap!

Also, this kind of thing is appropriate for hunting in TN. Backcountry skills 101. What is all kinds of dangerous is cotton camo, cotton anything.

 

[annpats]

SK's tent was inadequate even for the lower -48. It didn't have a full fly. Actually, the fly on his looks like a little hat. I wouldn't even go car camping with one of those: if it rained or got foggy, you're getting wet. As you sleep through the night and generate sweat, the condensation will start dripping down on you.

Ha, yes, even my little tent in England has a full fly...we call them 'double-skinned' over here.
No condensation is a must, even just for camping in the garden, hahaha!

The kind of tent SK had is the kind of tent people take to music festivals here in the summer.....just for one or two nights and they're so cheap, they don't bring them back with them, just leave them there.

I've seen videos on YT where serious outdoors people have stove/chimney tents, where you can run a metal pipe up through the roof so you're able to have a special sealed stove inside and keep warm with no danger of carbon monoxide poisoning. I've attached 2 photos below so you can see what I'm talking about....

 

[5W's]

I thought some hard facts might be helpful here to sort this out. The history of RECCO: RECCO - Wikipedia

I haven’t seen any peer-reviewed, data driven, evidence that RECCO detects cell phone circuit boards. There would have to be some overwhelming evidence for it to be viable or practical in a SAR application. Plus, the devices have to be available, budgets and financial considerations apply, operators have to be trained, devices have to be transported to the search site….
There is no evidence either, as far as I can tell, that SK’s search site is within a day’s helicopter ride from where a flyable RECCO is located, and there are obviously not ground personnel to use a handheld model. In fact, there are not folks available to go searching even by walking around: the location is too far away and expensive to get to. Plus, helicopters are allocated by priority for air ambulance services.
And, finally, the RECCO will be allocated to searches where there is a good chance of rescue while live (this was technology designed for avalanches) or a high likelihood of recovery. AK has many situations where that is true. Hard as it is, neither of those situations apply in this case, so the decision not to deploy is very understandable.
IMO the concept of using RECCO in this case is not well-placed. It’s too bad IMO that SK’s friends and family don’t seem to be listening to AK authorities about whys and wherefores, and concentrating on methods that have a greater (though still infinitesimal) likelihood of a find.

I don't disagree with this but regardless of the cost IMO it should be used as his wife stated. However I do get the cost issue. Perhaps its best the family covers the expenses. But anything to help.

 

[5W's]

Personal experience of the perils:

Planet Alaska: Muskeg Love | Juneau Empire

Muskeg life is wet, mushy, juicy, fleshy, tangy, glabrous, globose and glandular.

www.juneauempire.com

See the one she is in is not deep. Muskegs vary. I wonder in the area Steve was camping in how deep they are. If young not much. Another figure I came accross was 9ft to 30 ft. So they vary. But at the same time I wonder if the law of physics apply to muskegs. I think probably they do. Maybe Steve can be found that way if he's iside one. He shouldn't be too far.

 

[RickshawFan]

The SAR spent a lot of money on the initial search with the use of aircraft. They deemed it too risky for both dogs and people to do a ground search which I think would have been cheaper.

IIRC the people with the dogs deemed it risky, too.

 

[RickshawFan]

Ha, yes, even my little tent in England has a full fly...we call them 'double-skinned' over here.
No condensation is a must, even just for camping in the garden, hahaha!

The kind of tent SK had is the kind of tent people take to music festivals here in the summer.....just for one or two nights and they're so cheap, they don't bring them back with them, just leave them there.

I've seen videos on YT where serious outdoors people have stove/chimney tents, where you can run a metal pipe up through the roof so you're able to have a special sealed stove inside and keep warm with no danger of carbon monoxide poisoning. I've attached 2 photos below so you can see what I'm talking about....

Great photos.

I believe they use those kinds of stoves in AK, and they’re quite standard there. They must do something special with the floor, otherwise the stove would melt the floor.

Tundra has the extra issue of making everything wet, and it’s difficult to dry because of the cold.

Chet in his videos details his protocols and expectations for outfitting and apparel in current temps in AK. I don’t think my standard would be as extreme as his (a tent heater is mandatory, in his view), but he knows way better than I do for that environment. Until this case, I’ve known exactly zero about tundra.

The stove alone is the reason why you’d use an outfitter and get a transport at the very spot where you’re going to camp.

In general, once your sleeping bag gets wet, you have to stop everything you’re doing to get it dry. It’s your major piece of emergency equipment. If you can’t get it dry, time to bail and head home.