AK AK - Steve Keel, 61, missing from hunting trip, from TN - Aug 27, 2022

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See the one she is in is not deep. Muskegs vary. I wonder in the area Steve was camping in how deep they are. If young not much. Another figure I came accross was 9ft to 30 ft. So they vary. But at the same time I wonder if the law of physics apply to muskegs. I think probably they do. Maybe Steve can be found that way if he's iside one. He shouldn't be too far.
You might watch Chet’s videos. He actually demonstrates the terrain near SK’s camp, talks about depth, width, etc. He has photos. Also, he fell flat on his face and got drenched.

It’s not safe to search in those watery locations. You have no idea how deep or wide, and could jeopardize your life with a wrong step.

Chet’s videos are located at the FB citation ^^^^.
 
I don't disagree with this but regardless of the cost IMO it should be used as his wife stated. However I do get the cost issue. Perhaps its best the family covers the expenses. But anything to help.
You think the RECCO and the assigned helicopter and the assigned EMT’s and helicopter pilot should be placed out of service to everyone else in AK for the several days it would take to search for SK’S remains? That’s the implication of what you’re saying.

There are days to get to Deadhorse and back, search time, and law-required follow-up maintenance for the heli. All on the off-chance the vague rumor that a cell phone chip could maybe bounce back a signal even if it’s at the bottom of a muskeg or frozen ‘til spring. Even if the family had funds for it, I doubt the State of AK would use its resources like that.

Let’s see who else might be needing it, with a chance at life: thousands of native hunters, thousands of folks enjoying AK’s national parks, tourists on cruises who go missing, rangers attacked by grizzly, military on backcountry training, skiers, folks in the outdoors enjoying fall color…

At the same time SK went missing, 5 native moose hunters went missing…. The State allocated technology there. Should it have been sent to find SK’s remains instead?
 
You think the RECCO and the assigned helicopter and the assigned EMT’s and helicopter pilot should be placed out of service to everyone else in AK for the several days it would take to search for SK’S remains? That’s the implication of what you’re saying.

There are days to get to Deadhorse and back, search time, and law-required follow-up maintenance for the heli. All on the off-chance the vague rumor that a cell phone chip could maybe bounce back a signal even if it’s at the bottom of a muskeg or frozen ‘til spring. Even if the family had funds for it, I doubt the State of AK would use its resources like that.

Let’s see who else might be needing it, with a chance at life: thousands of native hunters, thousands of folks enjoying AK’s national parks, tourists on cruises who go missing, rangers attacked by grizzly, military on backcountry training, skiers, folks in the outdoors enjoying fall color…

At the same time SK went missing, 5 native moose hunters went missing…. The State allocated technology there. Should it have been sent to find SK’s remains instead?
Of course not but one hears what his wife says. It is heartbreaking. The thing is perhaps if it was used more then the cost may come down. So that would be good. IDK why people are so negative to finding alternatives and (regardless of cost as there are ways to go around that, obviously not enough people know about it.) Yes we know Chet fell down in one but he didn't die, nor did others. So basically it doesn't answer anything. How did Chet avoid falling into one the same logic would apply to Steve. Yes, Steve had many things going against his survival He should be around closeby if he was that exausted and there may be signs of his clothing in the myskegs due to the law of physics. Basically if all the muskeg in the area where Steve vanished from are 100ft deep the area would be off limits. So I suspect they are not and perhaps clothing can be seen floating on it if Steve's inside 1. And also if there were muskeg all over the area it would also be off limits. So we can assume either he fell in one and can still be found in one, he is closeby off trail someplace. The only concern would be a deep one because he may not be located in one because of the depth. IMO it doesn't seem like there are any extremely deep ones in the area. So in that event he should be seen around somewhere closeby.
 
Of course not but one hears what his wife says. It is heartbreaking. The thing is perhaps if it was used more then the cost may come down. So that would be good. IDK why people are so negative to finding alternatives and (regardless of cost as there are ways to go around that, obviously not enough people know about it.) Yes we know Chet fell down in one but he didn't die, nor did others. So basically it doesn't answer anything. How did Chet avoid falling into one the same logic would apply to Steve. Yes, Steve had many things going against his survival He should be around closeby if he was that exausted and there may be signs of his clothing in the myskegs due to the law of physics. Basically if all the muskeg in the area where Steve vanished from are 100ft deep the area would be off limits. So I suspect they are not and perhaps clothing can be seen floating on it if Steve's inside 1. And also if there were muskeg all over the area it would also be off limits. So we can assume either he fell in one and can still be found in one, he is closeby off trail someplace. The only concern would be a deep one because he may not be located in one because of the depth. IMO it doesn't seem like there are any extremely deep ones in the area. So in that event he should be seen around somewhere closeby.
I can appreciate your heartfelt concern. I actually have trained to join my local (non-technical and definitely not in Alaskan terrain) search and rescue group because I strongly believe in trying to find everyone (preferrably alive!).

But I don't think you even remotely understand how many people go missing and how few resources and funds there are to find them. My group is all voluntary and I look-up to the members that are able to dedicate more time and effort (especially in providing training for others). I have the UTMOST respect for those that work with SAR K9s, I had no idea before I joined HOW MUCH VOLUNTEER time (and money) those handler pour into training to be certified for SAR and how far they travel at their own expense to help. It is truly amazing. I live in a much more populous area than AK which means a lot more ppl around who are trained to help search.

The fact that as many folks turned out as they did in this wild and remote place is amazing.

I think it is a terrible idea to have the family gather and spend $100k (which I believe is minimally what the cost would be) to attempt to use RECCO in a completely untested manner. While sad, I think donating to the SAR groups that assisted would be a much better way for them to do something positive and hopefully help the next person who goes missing.

I also see in your message you said this:
Basically if all the muskeg in the area where Steve vanished from are 100ft deep the area would be off limits
You should NEVER assume this in the wilderness in USA. Yes, in a city park, in a populated area, there would (and should) be warning signs. In the middle of remote tundra in Alaska there is no such thing as "closing an area off" - it is absolutely up to the hunter/hiker/whomever to know what they are getting into and assume NOTHING is safe at all. I think that is exactly what Rickshaw has been emphasizing in all their posts.
 
I think Steve and Bryan would know to use the sturdier tent than otherwise especially for sleeping in at night. The flimsier tent may be used for something else. I would think experienced hunters in any environment would know this for one thing. Secondly if they thought about their tent I don't see why they wouldn't incorporate that into their clothing as well as in keeping warm.
 
<modsnip: quoted post removed >If the two men knew about their tent being sturdy and having it to sleep in then they would also have clothing likewise also. <modsnip> Afterall Bryan survived the climate because he had these provisions. I'm not going to agree that Steve and Bryan did not have appropriate clothing for their trip. Rain can make a person hypothermic anywhere in cold temps. So they would have waterproof clothing and boots.
 
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Dover Tennessee, (Keel's hometown) is SIGNIFICANTLY colder in January, than Deadhorse Alaska was when Keel and his hunting companion were there. To say that this area is completely out of his wheelhouse, a weather pattern unknown to Keel and his companion, is not true. He's lived through much colder than this, and likely hunted in much colder than this.


Compare to Dover, January, average high 45 degrees, average low, 25 degrees.
 
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Dover Tennessee, (Keel's hometown) is SIGNIFICANTLY colder in January, than Deadhorse Alaska was when Keel and his hunting companion were there. To say that this area is completely out of his wheelhouse, a weather pattern unknown to Keel and his companion, is not true. He's lived through much colder than this, and likely hunted in much colder than this.

It's not just about cold. It's about whole environment being entirely different to what Steve knows. It's about the civilisation being farther away than on any of the previous hunting trips Steve experienced.
 
It's not just about cold. It's about whole environment being entirely different to what Steve knows. It's about the civilisation being farther away than on any of the previous hunting trips Steve experienced.
I just don't understand this, that keeps being repeated, that this wasn't survivable, or would take really significant efforts to stay alive out there in August. They saw no predators, at all, the weather was fairly mild, walking 5 miles was something he did at the beginning of the excursion just days prior, and he still had all the stamina to hunt, and carry his kill (which is enormous) mostly back. The search party with his sons didn't have significant issues, nor did the search party of his friends from home.

The Alaskan Tundra, in January or February, is enormously difficult and would have presented dangers that are life threatening.

I just don't see how, from the videos I've seen of the search, this environment itself was so dangerous that a hunting party would need to rule it out as too dangerous.
 
believe they use those kinds of stoves in AK, and they’re quite standard there. They must do something special with the floor, otherwise the stove would melt the floor.
I understand the stove is about a foot (30cm) off the floor - it has 4 legs underneath it.

I took the photos from a Russian man who post videos on YT, he camps out in minus 25°C. Water freezes at 0°C. (I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, sorry.)
 
I understand the stove is about a foot (30cm) off the floor - it has 4 legs underneath it.

I took the photos from a Russian man who post videos on YT, he camps out in minus 25°C. Water freezes at 0°C. (I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, sorry.)

0°C is 32°F. -25°C is -13°F.
 
I just don't understand this, that keeps being repeated, that this wasn't survivable, or would take really significant efforts to stay alive out there in August. They saw no predators, at all, the weather was fairly mild, walking 5 miles was something he did at the beginning of the excursion just days prior, and he still had all the stamina to hunt, and carry his kill (which is enormous) mostly back. The search party with his sons didn't have significant issues, nor did the search party of his friends from home.

The Alaskan Tundra, in January or February, is enormously difficult and would have presented dangers that are life threatening.

I just don't see how, from the videos I've seen of the search, this environment itself was so dangerous that a hunting party would need to rule it out as too dangerous.
RBBM
I haven't seen any feedback from the sons or the TN special ops search party. The latter lost a whole day of searching due to fog, which is significant considering the long travel time & money spent. I thought they decided to pull out because they were finding it difficult to cover enough distance on foot. Six days & no trace, according to this article. I think some of the 6 days include travel time, leaving 4 on tundra minus 1 stuck waiting on fog to lift. That had to have been very frustrating just sitting in camp unable to fulfill their mission.

www.wsmv.com/2022/09/13/dover-men-conclude-search-efforts-missing-man-alaska/

I don't think his sons have spoken other than to confirm they found no evidence of Steve during their search of the tundra, which I think lasted only a few days, as well.

I have no doubt there were issues for both parties. We just have no way of knowing exactly what barriers were most challenging to them. It would be good to have the sons & Dover team all debriefed thoroughly by a reporter before assuming silence equals no "significant issues."

And then there's this:
www.wsmv.com/2022/09/18/no-further-search-teams-be-sent-alaska-steve-keel/

MOO
 
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It's not just about cold. It's about whole environment being entirely different to what Steve knows. It's about the civilisation being farther away than on any of the previous hunting trips Steve experienced.
Actually anywhere hunting is far away from civilization. That is a given. If we want to say commincation in an emergency I understand that because Bryan had satelite phone, communication device as Steve didn't take it with him. So, IMO perhaps civilization being farther away doesn't apply.
 
I can appreciate your heartfelt concern. I actually have trained to join my local (non-technical and definitely not in Alaskan terrain) search and rescue group because I strongly believe in trying to find everyone (preferrably alive!).

But I don't think you even remotely understand how many people go missing and how few resources and funds there are to find them. My group is all voluntary and I look-up to the members that are able to dedicate more time and effort (especially in providing training for others). I have the UTMOST respect for those that work with SAR K9s, I had no idea before I joined HOW MUCH VOLUNTEER time (and money) those handler pour into training to be certified for SAR and how far they travel at their own expense to help. It is truly amazing. I live in a much more populous area than AK which means a lot more ppl around who are trained to help search.

The fact that as many folks turned out as they did in this wild and remote place is amazing.

I think it is a terrible idea to have the family gather and spend $100k (which I believe is minimally what the cost would be) to attempt to use RECCO in a completely untested manner. While sad, I think donating to the SAR groups that assisted would be a much better way for them to do something positive and hopefully help the next person who goes missing.

I also see in your message you said this:
Basically if all the muskeg in the area where Steve vanished from are 100ft deep the area would be off limits
You should NEVER assume this in the wilderness in USA. Yes, in a city park, in a populated area, there would (and should) be warning signs. In the middle of remote tundra in Alaska there is no such thing as "closing an area off" - it is absolutely up to the hunter/hiker/whomever to know what they are getting into and assume NOTHING is safe at all. I think that is exactly what Rickshaw has been emphasizing in all their posts.
Again I don't disagree. Your points are great. However, I do have some thoughts here. I think his wife is entitled to continue to do whatever she can to find her husband and that includes using new technology (applied in a new way even if it is decades old?) RECCO for the circuitboards etc. metal etc. As for assuming the area not to be safe in terms of an actual hazard/s is a different matter than the general safety issues of the area. We are talking about 2 different things. They cannot be lumped together as has been suggested. If such hazard/s as many 100 ft muskeg were in the area for example a warning would be issued by the authorities. Because obviously it would be deadly. However there is no such warning as deep muskegs are all over rhe place. So we can assume that they are shallow ones. IMO all SAR do excellent work even if it is limited. Tundra is tundra and there are bound to be muskeg. So we aren't disputing that. Its the frquency and depth that pose the danger. IMO prepardeness is key in what RickshawFan may be alluding to. If one is not prepared anywhere in any circumstance it will cause a problem for the individual. IMO Steve and Bryan were prepared relatively well or as can be expected for this trip. Its not like they are in thigh high deep snow or something like that. This is what I mean relative to their situation they were prepared for what they were getting into. Lets put it this way. Steve and Bryan came for a hunting trip they did not utilize a guide company which is recommended so in that sense they were not prepared. However, again other people have not had guides and were fine. Perhaps Steve and Bryan were on a budget where does it say it is a requirement to use a Guide Company. It is optional.
 
EAFBE710-B3EF-46F1-8425-ABCA09783819.jpeg


This picture is from post #12 above. I wonder if he would have been found by now if he had been wearing hunter orange instead of camo.

In Ontario, all licensed hunters, including bow hunters, falconers, bear hunters and trappers who are hunting under their trapping licence during a gun season for deer, elk or moose, are required to wear hunter orange. I gasped in alarm when I saw the photo showing what he was wearing.

Wear orange when hunting. It could save your life. Moose are colour blind, so they don't care what colour you wear.

This is what hunter orange looks like:
Information on Resident Moose Hunts

23A93ED1-9D91-4190-B433-7CA0AE7B15D4.jpeg
 
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This picture is from post #12 above. I wonder if he would have been found by now if he had been wearing hunter orange instead of camo.

In Ontario, all licensed hunters, including bow hunters, falconers, bear hunters and trappers who are hunting under their trapping licence during a gun season for deer, elk or moose, are required to wear hunter orange. I gasped in alarm when I saw the photo showing what he was wearing.

Wear orange when hunting. It could save your life. Moose are colour blind, so they don't care what colour you wear.

Caribou are colorblind too. Generally wearing camo, or brown/grey/black when you are out in the wild, never mind if you are hunting, hiking, or what, is a bad idea. If something happens and you get lost, or become immobile, you are practically invisible. Have something vividly coloured with you, it can save your life.

Now, in Steve's case the ground search is very difficult or straight impossible in some areas, because the tundra in the summer is a wet, soggy, boggy mess. And in this clothing he melts into one with soil and vegetation and is extremely hard to spot from the above.
 
Caribou are colorblind too. Generally wearing camo, or brown/grey/black when you are out in the wild, never mind if you are hunting, hiking, or what, is a bad idea. If something happens and you get lost, or become immobile, you are practically invisible. Have something vividly coloured with you, it can save your life.

Now, in Steve's case the ground search is very difficult or straight impossible in some areas, because the tundra in the summer is a wet, soggy, boggy mess. And in this clothing he melts into one with soil and vegetation and is extremely hard to spot from the above.
Just thinking… could it be possible he had an orange vest he wore while hunting but had taken it off before this photo was take ?
 
Just thinking… could it be possible he had an orange vest he wore while hunting but had taken it off before this photo was take ?
He's not in an orange vest anywhere I've seen. But also, he didn't seem to be carrying ANYTHING colorful, otherwise he'd have been able to tie it to the pole marking the cache.
 
We are not disputing this, first of all I appreciate that fact. All I'm saying is that Steve and Bryan have the aid of modern tools as the Inuit did not in previous times. Yet they survived. Not that I'm saying anything is greater in today's tools (that can be utilized) in extreme conditions all I'm saying is that Steve and Bryan have access to these modern tools as previous generations regardless of culture did not.
The local folks in AK historically may not have had satellite technology, but they had climate-adapted apparel and "gear". They know what to wear and what not to wear. They know their limits when it comes to going into the tundra (many only go there when it's frozen). They know how to build for warmth, and what in their environment can support life. It's been this way for generations.
These days, locals use satellite technology if they're going in the tundra. Also, NSB LE, in their formal statements, have warned that any folks searching for SK need to have a satellite communicator in case they need SOS. They also made clear folks need to check in with LE beforehand, too. Both of these statements were VERY pointed.
SK and BC had only one communicator (zoleo) between them. Sharing a zoleo would be like if you had two sick patients in a hospital room and you wanted them to share the red call button.

For some reason I can't fathom, the SOS function wasn't on SK's and BC's radar, and they didn't each have a zoleo. They did have a thought they could get separated—they had an agreement they'd meet back at the vehicle (which is a super impractical agreement if you're injured or lost in the wilderness)—but I guess didn't think through to the concept of EMERGENCY, like getting separated and getting injured or lost.
 
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