AK AK - Steve Keel, 61, missing from hunting trip, from TN - Aug 27, 2022

[RickshawFan]

Family requesting something from SAR is not detracting from a SAR teams helpfullness or abilities. Unfortunately the bottom line is SAR teams have differing capabilities. If it was all across the board all SAR teams use the same technology, and equipment to find people it would only enhance not detract. As far as the cell phone pings being picked up from the helicopter its an excellent idea as it is the circuit board of the cell phone so clothing is immaterial in that context of the circuitboard.

SAR in this case used equipment that is often no available in other cases. Not every backcountry missing person gets a helicopter search, let alone the number of hours committed here (consider required maintenance and down time for the equipment, too).
The limiting factors in this case IMO were not about technology: they were about local conditions such as terrain, huge area of coverage, weather, the arctic context, local knowledge of the odds, too risky for K-9’s, and not wanting to take ambulances (in this area they are the SAR helicopters) out of service.

I haven’t seen anything that states SAR has a recco and a trained operator anything less than a day’s distance away, and a recco would have used additional (precious) helicopter resources and personnel. In the meantime, several moose hunters went missing in remote AK with lower SAR risk and higher odds of retrieval….

 

[neesaki]

If you ski, you might see a recco strip on your jacket.

I did ski for many years but I don’t believe there was one any on of my ski jackets. However there was something like that on or in my vest I used for cross country and snowshoeing. I don’t recall what it was called, just that it was useful to locate me.

 

[Gardenista]

No more on the ground searching to be done. They said ground searchers have covered 150 square miles. Does that seem possible? It seems like a lot to me, especially since it took one of the hunters 4 hours to walk 2.8 miles.

Search For Steve | ‼️UPDATE‼️ | Facebook

‼️UPDATE‼️

www.facebook.com

 

[RickshawFan]

No more on the ground searching to be done. They said ground searchers have covered 150 square miles. Does that seem possible? It seems like a lot to me, especially since it took one of the hunters 4 hours to walk 2.8 miles.

Search For Steve | ‼️UPDATE‼️ | Facebook

‼️UPDATE‼️

www.facebook.com

Each of 5 searchers would have to have covered 30 square miles, and it wasn't a grid search, as far as I can tell. The SAR helicopter might, in fact, have covered that much ground/lake, but even that, I doubt: we might be able to tell from your airborne search map.

 

[acutename]

No more on the ground searching to be done. They said ground searchers have covered 150 square miles. Does that seem possible? It seems like a lot to me, especially since it took one of the hunters 4 hours to walk 2.8 miles.

Search For Steve | ‼️UPDATE‼️ | Facebook

‼️UPDATE‼️

www.facebook.com

reaistically, unaided, the lost person would only be able to go a given distance.
injured, he would be able to go less far.

he was an ex marine and an experienced hunter, so I am willing, IMO, to figure that if he was competent, he would have made himself visible or stayed in one place to be found. what I am thinking now is that he was tired the day before, so was he getting sick or pushing himself too hard? the one article said that "after coffee the next morning," he went back out to get the meat- so not feeling particularly ill or if feeling worn out, not expressing it. the problem with that is that he should have been realy close to the tent/meat/camp.

remember this lady:

Missing hiker later found dead kept journal of ordeal​

https://www.cbsnews.com › news › missing-hiker-geral...





May 25, 2016 — Geraldine Largay, 66, disappeared while hiking Appalachian Trail in July 2013; survived at least 26 days after getting lost, journal shows.

she was very close to where she "went missing"

 

[RickshawFan]

reaistically, unaided, the lost person would only be able to go a given distance.
injured, he would be able to go less far.

he was an ex marine and an experienced hunter, so I am willing, IMO, to figure that if he was competent, he would have made himself visible or stayed in one place to be found. what I am thinking now is that he was tired the day before, so was he getting sick or pushing himself too hard? the one article said that "after coffee the next morning," he went back out to get the meat- so not feeling particularly ill or if feeling worn out, not expressing it. the problem with that is that he should have been realy close to the tent/meat/camp.

remember this lady:

Missing hiker later found dead kept journal of ordeal​

https://www.cbsnews.com › news › missing-hiker-geral...





May 25, 2016 — Geraldine Largay, 66, disappeared while hiking Appalachian Trail in July 2013; survived at least 26 days after getting lost, journal shows.

she was very close to where she "went missing"

Largay also had her pack with her, so she wasn't likely to get hypothermia. She died of starvation.

Her remains weren't found for several years IIRC; this is not unusual for a missing hiker.

 

[acutename]

Largay also had her pack with her, so she wasn't likely to get hypothermia. She died of starvation.

Her remains weren't found for several years IIRC; this is not unusual for a missing hiker.

just saying that there is a finite amount of travel SK could do-unless someone picked him up off the road- he ought to be fairly close- "just"
concealed in the muskeg. and if he muskeg wasn't a good consealor, someone would have seen him by now.

 

[bettyboop]

I just wanted to thank @RickshawFan and the other posters for enlightening me on the perils involved in endeavors such as these. I am a major couch potato and have never been camping or hiking. My
only such experience is walking in the woods near my house,lol.I am learning so much!! Thank You!!

 

[RickshawFan]

I just wanted to thank @RickshawFan and the other posters for enlightening me on the perils involved in endeavors such as these. I am a major couch potato and have never been camping or hiking. My
only such experience is walking in the woods near my house,lol.I am learning so much!! Thank You!!

Thanks for saying that, @bettyboop ! IMO the crucial difference between "missing in the wilderness" cases and crime cases here, is that in these there's a chance to learn about keeping oneself safe, and also what's expected. Perhaps discussion can even save a WS poster's life.
But the truth is, I owe so much to folks who came before me. I learned from their wisdom. Way back when, many were 50 years older than I and knew a thing or two! I'd go out at least once—sometimes twice—a week with a local hiking club (the Obsidians). Some had been hiking since the 1930's. Their experiences shaped how I think about the outdoors. Equipment has really evolved, making it easier to be safe, but really, it still supports what earlier generations discovered.
IMO the best way to learn about outdoor etiquette and best practices is not from your buddies or just going out there (though those are very helpful), but from people who've been there and done that. SAR members are also great to learn from, and they can be very good story tellers.
Be willing to hand down your own wisdom to the next generation, too. SAR is being run dry with the escalation of wilderness missing and accidents, because more and more folks are misjudging their abilities or not planning well.
And, if anyone is inclined, the National Park Service is beefing up their cadres of volunteers ("Trail Ambassadors") whose job it is to keep people on trails from making rookie mistakes. My dog and I are just back from my Trail Ambassador gig now, yep, easy hiking in the woods, just like yours, @bettyboop : couch potatoes for the evening!

 

[5W's]

While every individual is a unique person, there is a science of “lost behavior”. They looked at hundreds of thousands of cases. People do similar and predictable things when they get lost. So predictable, that the US Department of Homeland Security has an app for it. SAR follows these algorithms because they have the highest likelihood of success. There is even a specific algorithm for hunters and another for hikers.
But that doesn’t mean SAR finds everyone who goes lost in backcountry. They don’t, unfortunately.
I am quite sure SAR did everything they could in this case and then some.

Relevant videos on “lost person behavior” are posted ^^^^^.

I don't disagree with you, I'm just saying all aspects of a case should be looked at and taken into consideration even if the aspects are unusual. sometimes IMO they are overlooked. Anything that can help. Some of the questions people have asked in Steve's thread bring up further questions so its good to examine and understand it may help. I'm not disagreeing with the methods at all or the behaviours of a lost person. But everything should be considered.

 

[5W's]

I haven’t seen anything published on how they interacted with each other.

Also, people assess risk differently and pay attention to different factors. This trip to a wild and unfamiliar place is a very clear example. For instance, there are posters here in the camp of “I’d never in a million years do that trip” versus other posters who assess the context as no different from their home base except maybe you can see for miles.

I don't dispute that but Steve would know his capabilities and so would Bryan so Bryan would want Steve to come back safely. IMO and thus aided him in some way by making sure he had safety equipment with him. A compass is fine but communicaion is safety. So if Bryan was aware of Steve's abilities then he would have given Steve the communication device. These are things in this that make me question how he went missing. I know your rational but that doesen't answer this question for me. These are part of the reason why he went missing. There are other questions I have but I will ask as this goes along.

 

[RickshawFan]

I don't dispute that but Steve would know his capabilities and so would Bryan so Bryan would want Steve to come back safely. IMO and thus aided him in some way by making sure he had safety equipment with him. A compass is fine but communicaion is safety. So if Bryan was aware of Steve's abilities then he would have given Steve the communication device. These are things in this that make me question how he went missing. I know your rational but that doesen't answer this question for me. These are part of the reason why he went missing. There are other questions I have but I will ask as this goes along.

SK declined to take the etrek or the zoleo, AFAIK. And, if you only use the compass for the angle from north, that won't get you to your goal: you could use the same angle and be on a parallel path. CS on his FB page (while he's out searching) also came to this conclusion about the parallel lines, namely that SK overshot the meat cache because he was too far to the left of it, and when he came back, he was too far to the right of camp. This could have been prevented by using a map with the compass or triangulating. You might also be able to line up the compass with a landmark, as well as note the angle in degrees to walk. It doesn't seem to be possible to get the two trekking poles lined up.
We don't know, either, if SK's compass was set with the correct declination. I'm unclear if it was a manual compass or one on the phone.
I'm kinda thinking SK had a problem that caused him to leave off the meat and not take a GPS reading of the exact spot. He didn't just rest there for a bit, either: he went all the way to camp without the meat. Something was off IMO that may have contributed to his disappearance.

 

[neesaki]

SK declined to take the etrek or the zoleo, AFAIK. And, if you only use the compass for the angle from north, that won't get you to your goal: you could use the same angle and be on a parallel path. CS on his FB page (while he's out searching) also came to this conclusion about the parallel lines, namely that SK overshot the meat cache because he was too far to the left of it, and when he came back, he was too far to the right of camp. This could have been prevented by using a map with the compass or triangulating. You might also be able to line up the compass with a landmark, as well as note the angle in degrees to walk. It doesn't seem to be possible to get the two trekking poles lined up.
We don't know, either, if SK's compass was set with the correct declination. I'm unclear if it was a manual compass or one on the phone.
I'm kinda thinking SK had a problem that caused him to leave off the meat and not take a GPS reading of the exact spot. He didn't just rest there for a bit, either: he went all the way to camp without the meat. Something was off IMO that may have contributed to his disappearance.

Re bolded: I’ve been thinking that as well.

 

[WingsOverTX]

Re bolded: I’ve been thinking that as well.

I concur with you both.

 

[5W's]

SK declined to take the etrek or the zoleo, AFAIK. And, if you only use the compass for the angle from north, that won't get you to your goal: you could use the same angle and be on a parallel path. CS on his FB page (while he's out searching) also came to this conclusion about the parallel lines, namely that SK overshot the meat cache because he was too far to the left of it, and when he came back, he was too far to the right of camp. This could have been prevented by using a map with the compass or triangulating. You might also be able to line up the compass with a landmark, as well as note the angle in degrees to walk. It doesn't seem to be possible to get the two trekking poles lined up.
We don't know, either, if SK's compass was set with the correct declination. I'm unclear if it was a manual compass or one on the phone.
I'm kinda thinking SK had a problem that caused him to leave off the meat and not take a GPS reading of the exact spot. He didn't just rest there for a bit, either: he went all the way to camp without the meat. Something was off IMO that may have contributed to his disappearance.

The Zoleo is so important, perhaps he was relying solely on his cellphone. But if he could see one of the poles then why would he go another direction?

 

[RickshawFan]

The Zoleo is so important, perhaps he was relying solely on his cellphone. But if he could see one of the poles then why would he go another direction?

The zoleo depends on a cell phone (you can actually make satellite phone calls), though it’s possible there’s an SOS button that doesn’t need a phone. (And your phone would have to have a live battery.) I dunno. But then what? SAR helicopters are hours away…

In order to stay on track, you’d have to have both poles in view. You’d need a course in a straight line between the poles. Evidently, the cache pole wasn’t visible from the camp pole.

I really think something went wrong that caused the cache location to be a mess. This is not outdoor experience or common sense at work! If SK had simply tied a bright bandanna to the pole, so it was easily visible…. If he’d triangulated the location. If he marked the location on a map…

 

[5W's]

The zoleo depends on a cell phone (you can actually make satellite phone calls), though it’s possible there’s an SOS button that doesn’t need a phone. (And your phone would have to have a live battery.) I dunno. But then what? SAR helicopters are hours away…

In order to stay on track, you’d have to have both poles in view. You’d need a course in a straight line between the poles. Evidently, the cache pole wasn’t visible from the camp pole.

I really think something went wrong that caused the cache location to be a mess. This is not outdoor experience or common sense at work! If SK had simply tied a bright bandanna to the pole, so it was easily visible…. If he’d triangulated the location. If he marked the location on a map…

Well, at least he could inform SAR he was lost and he could wait where he was so they could find him even if it was hours away.

 

[neesaki]

I have to wonder if we aren’t hearing the whole story for some reason. Is this because that’s all that’s being released to the public, or is it that SK’s hunting partner hasn’t been fully forthcoming with information.

Something else I’ve been curious about…. Is it common practice for hunters these days to wear camouflage clothing on these kind of hunts? When I was younger I recall being taught you should wear bright colors, to avoid being mistaken for wildlife by other hunters.

 

[neesaki]

The zoleo depends on a cell phone (you can actually make satellite phone calls), though it’s possible there’s an SOS button that doesn’t need a phone. (And your phone would have to have a live battery.) I dunno. But then what? SAR helicopters are hours away…

In order to stay on track, you’d have to have both poles in view. You’d need a course in a straight line between the poles. Evidently, the cache pole wasn’t visible from the camp pole.

I really think something went wrong that caused the cache location to be a mess. This is not outdoor experience or common sense at work! If SK had simply tied a bright bandanna to the pole, so it was easily visible…. If he’d triangulated the location. If he marked the location on a map…

CS did say that the meat pole could not be seen from the pole on the ridge. And that it couldnt be reached by walking in a straight line. If in a straight line you hit the swamp. He had to go around the swamp to find the meat pole. In the latest video, he shows some items he found : some gloves , some sort of medal, and a bag . Did he say “Steve’s bag”? I couldn’t quite make it out. He Recommended a search team with cadaver dogs.
Definitely not sounding good.

 

[RickshawFan]

The Zoleo is so important, perhaps he was relying solely on his cellphone. But if he could see one of the poles then why would he go another direction?

He went towards the pole, but missed. He couldn’t see the pole while he was moving.