Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #3

[MikeF]

What makes you think it was supposed to be loaded with dummy rounds, when it was loaded with two blanks and one live? Sounds to me as if someone thought it was supposed to contain blanks. It's even more bizarre if the armourer and AD couldn't distinguish between a dummy and a blank or a live round. I can see someone check from behind quickly and not realizing there were two kinds of rounds - but not noticing dummies would be beyond just regular negligence, IMO. So I think whoever loaded the blanks from the set's store of blanks thought the gun was supposed to have blanks and did not check the entire cylinder.

Since it was a real, operational revolver, leaving it off the cart altogether was an option (for a rehearsal).

Since it was on the cart, it was supposed to be shown by the armourer to the AD or Propmaster that it was unloaded (this wasn't done). Then, when handed to the actor, whoever handed it was supposed to check it in the presence of the actor (per both Propmaster and Actors Unions protocols). That wasn't done.

Then, if it had contained dummies (which it obviously didn't), everyone would know about it. Then it would have been a cold gun. Something went seriously wrong here. It's very odd, even if there was plinking on set that day, that the armourer didn't check the gun when it was loaded with 2 blanks (and the live round was behind the hammer...she didn't even check to see what was behind the hammer). It's not uncommon for that chamber to be empty and for the actor to be told that on the first shot, nothing will happen - especially during a rehearsal.

Whenever guns are used on set, there's supposed to be a brief safety meeting among all parties (including the director) to explain exactly what is in the gun, how things are expected to go and whether that day will be just rehearsal or there will be a switch to blanks (in which case the entire protocol of examining the gun is supposed to take place again, in the presence of the AD and the actor).

Guns should be locked up on set when not in use, as well. Then, there's no one putting live rounds into it except the person with a combo to the safe (the armourer).

If this has been changed sometime this morning I apologize, but the previously released affidavit said-- HGR stated, before lunch, she checked the dummies in the weapon, to make sure there were no hot rounds. After lunch the guns were brought to her (from the safe) by the prop master. Halls said HGR showed him the gun which he later admitted he only saw three rounds.

After the shooting Hall said he had HGR open the weapon and it had four dummy casings (with the drilled holes) and one casing without the hole and had no cap. That casing was obviously the live round.

 

[10ofRods]

He states you have to ask for casings with no holes otherwise the holes are the default product. Don't know while he interchanges the terminology. Maybe because, based on reading so many articles about this tragedy, lots of other people do as well.

If you go to IMDB and count the number of people who were part of the crew for "Rust" and then look at The Harder They Fall (a recent theatrical release Western), and look at the Art Department - you'll see a huge difference. "Rust" has 1 person (which I thought surely was a mistake until it was reported in several news articles that one person refused to be the armourer because they expected that 1 person to be the armourer and the rest of the Art/Props Department).

The Harder They Fall (2021) - Full Cast & Crew - IMDb

There about 30 people in the art department on that film. They also had a large visual effects department, so they could easily add smoke or flash to a gun if they wanted (I haven't seen it). There are two armorers, one of them hired as a "gun trainer" in addition to armorer. The assistant armorer has a boss and is not their own boss.

When I saw how few people were actually working on "Rust" (Sheriff said maybe 100 total - I assume that's everyone, including extras), I was really shocked. I wonder how hiring was actually done...I have theories.

 

[branmuffin]

Someone who loaded the gun was probably the armorer. She was in charge of loading and unloading guns. She claims to be unaware there were live rounds on the set. Yet police say they found live rounds on the set. Dummy rounds look similar to live arounds (although not identical). But if she is really unware of live rounds (does she even know how to tell live round from a dummy round?), how much attention is she paying when she is loading the gun? She was very green, and having an experienced armorer for a father seemed to have been her main qualification for the job.

What I would like to know is just how many rounds were actually brought to the set. You would think an inventory of rounds would be SOP. According to LE about 500 rounds were a combination of live, dummy and blanks.

Considering this film was a western I would presume that quite a few rounds would be expended not only during filming but during rehearsal and when using stunt doubles (which is what occurred earlier). Considering the interchangeable verbiage regarding dummy rounds, hot guns, cold guns, blanks, etc, I still haven't figured out whether the stunt double incident was with actual rounds or just blanks.

Here's a Quora link relating to blanks and the level of injury or harm they can inflict. The first answer.

At what distance is the impact of a blank cartridge fatal? - Quora

Without knowing if it is the armourer who is tasked with bringing all ammunition on set, I'll hazard a guess and say she did bring it. She may be being truthful when she says that no live ammo should ever be on set but my question is does she actually know the difference? This is speculation on my part for the following reason.

I've been reading about reloading old casings which a lot of gun enthusiasts do to save money. Not just them but shooting ranges, military, etc. May be an armourer does the same thing. Since her transition from videographer and model to armourer seems fairly recent I presume she got a crash course from her father regarding gun safety, weapons handling, providing proper ammo on set, etc, etc, etc.

Twenty one gun ceremonial salutes use blanks, an event that many people are familiar with is a good example of blanks being used, eg, propellant with no projectile.

 

[10ofRods]

If this has been changed sometime this morning I apologize, but the previously released affidavit said-- HGR stated, before lunch, she checked the dummies in the weapon, to make sure there were no hot rounds. After lunch the guns were brought to her (from the safe) by the prop master. Halls said HGR showed him the gun which he later admitted he only saw three rounds.

After the shooting Hall said he had HGR open the weapon and it had four dummy casings (with the drilled holes) and one casing without the hole and had no cap. That casing was obviously the live round.

Did she use the actual word "dummies"? I haven't seen that at all and I have been hitting refresh on news about this every 5-10. minutes. Do you have a link where now she's saying dummies?

So...the prop master had the code to the safe and was inserted into the chain of handling for the weaponry.

Drilled casings are not, iMO, dummy rounds - they are blanks.

Dummy round - Wikipedia.

Dummy rounds - usually very hard to mistake for anything like a real bullet. Mine are purple.

Blanks.

That being said, one can certainly find more realistic dummy rounds (which, to me, is a really dumb thing to do on a movie set or anywhere else). There should be no confusion about which rounds are completely inert (cold).

At any rate, what's been reported is that it was **blanks** in the remaining chambers, not dummies. So if you're reading "dummies," then that makes me feel more of an attempt was made to be safe - it has been reported that all three types of ammo were on the set.

And it's been reported that the Colt .45 replica was built in modern, not vintage style, so that the cylinder could be popped to the side and spun (but that isn't the way to check whether dummies are in there unless the dummies are in fact coded at the tip - can't really tell quickly from behind view. Remains unclear whether this check was done by AD or not. HGR apparently said she needed to check the side of the casing to tell whether they were dummies (which is what she thought she was loading) and that she did that.

So how did that live round get in there without anyone noticing?

 

[10ofRods]

What I would like to know is just how many rounds were actually brought to the set. You would think an inventory of rounds would be SOP. According to LE about 500 rounds were a combination of live, dummy and blanks.

Considering this film was a western I would presume that quite a few rounds would be expended not only during filming but during rehearsal and when using stunt doubles (which is what occurred earlier). Considering the interchangeable verbiage regarding dummy rounds, hot guns, cold guns, blanks, etc, I still haven't figured out whether the stunt double incident was with actual rounds or just blanks.

Here's a Quora link relating to blanks and the level of injury or harm they can inflict. The first answer.

At what distance is the impact of a blank cartridge fatal? - Quora

Without knowing if it is the armourer who is tasked with bringing all ammunition on set, I'll hazard a guess and say she did bring it. She may be being truthful when she says that no live ammo should ever be on set but my question is does she actually know the difference? This is speculation on my part for the following reason.

I've been reading about reloading old casings which a lot of gun enthusiasts do to save money. Not just them but shooting ranges, military, etc. May be an armourer does the same thing. Since her transition from videographer and model to armourer seems fairly recent I presume she got a crash course from her father regarding gun safety, weapons handling, providing proper ammo on set, etc, etc, etc.

Twenty one gun ceremonial salutes use blanks, an event that many people are familiar with is a good example of blanks being used, eg, propellant with no projectile.

I wonder the same thing (whether she knew the difference). The picture of dummies I posted above makes it obvious - but there are other dummies that are much less obvious (unfortunately, I can't find them for sale or find a picture...just more pictures of dummies that make it really obvious it's a dummy):

I can see how someone could confuse a blank with a live round, I guess (if they didn't know what they were doing). And I guess some people think the term "cold gun" includes blanks (despite industry wide usage being otherwise - and despite everyone knowing by now that blanks can harm people). Surely everyone knows that. Firing a blank at the open prairie or during a High Noon sequence where the shooters are far apart, not such a big deal. But Halyna was about 3-4 feet from Alec's position, the camera did not protect her face because it was a tall shot, and gasses from a blank could still have damaged her eyes.

These are blanks (not dummies):

What I'd like to know is how anyone spinning the cylinder and looking from behind can tell the difference among the three types? And I'd love to know what style of dummy they had. If HGR herself ordered or went to the store and bought the ammo herself (which is what should have happened), did she choose the most similar-looking styles she could find? Why do that? If you're a novice with guns, choose a dummy. that is as obvious as can be. But I do believe the gun has to be held so that the front of the gun faces the person inspecting - something novices are often afraid (understandably) to do. Revolvers can be very safe though, as if the cylinder pops out for inspection, it's impossible to shoot yourself in the face with it in that position, unlike more modern weapons.

 

[10ofRods]

If this has been changed sometime this morning I apologize, but the previously released affidavit said-- HGR stated, before lunch, she checked the dummies in the weapon, to make sure there were no hot rounds. After lunch the guns were brought to her (from the safe) by the prop master. Halls said HGR showed him the gun which he later admitted he only saw three rounds.

After the shooting Hall said he had HGR open the weapon and it had four dummy casings (with the drilled holes) and one casing without the hole and had no cap. That casing was obviously the live round.

Hmm. Denver Post says that Hall found the gun abandoned, during the chaos, on a church pew - no one was minding it and no mention of HGR being there.

Hall is the one who picked it up and while he says "dummy" rounds, I don't trust him because he didn't check the guns before he yelled "cold gun," which anyone making that announcement ought to do. He may be covering his behind there, a bit.

 

[JDG]

*

 

[Arkay]

Alec and Hilaria Baldwin pose with their six kids for Halloween photos amid shooting chaos | Daily Mail Online

So apparently this weekend picture being posted has stirred up some controversy.

My opinion---the children should be able to have fun, dress in their costumes etc.
But I DO NOT think Hilaria had to post this publicly.
I DO NOT think Hilaria should mention how parenting is so intense for her right now.

Halyna's funeral was this weekend. I would guess that parenting has been intense for Halyna's husband a lot more than for the Baldwins.

 

[GatorFL]

Did she use the actual word "dummies"? I haven't seen that at all and I have been hitting refresh on news about this every 5-10. minutes. Do you have a link where now she's saying dummies?

So...the prop master had the code to the safe and was inserted into the chain of handling for the weaponry.

Drilled casings are not, iMO, dummy rounds - they are blanks.

Dummy round - Wikipedia.

Dummy rounds - usually very hard to mistake for anything like a real bullet. Mine are purple.

Blanks.

That being said, one can certainly find more realistic dummy rounds (which, to me, is a really dumb thing to do on a movie set or anywhere else). There should be no confusion about which rounds are completely inert (cold).

At any rate, what's been reported is that it was **blanks** in the remaining chambers, not dummies. So if you're reading "dummies," then that makes me feel more of an attempt was made to be safe - it has been reported that all three types of ammo were on the set.

And it's been reported that the Colt .45 replica was built in modern, not vintage style, so that the cylinder could be popped to the side and spun (but that isn't the way to check whether dummies are in there unless the dummies are in fact coded at the tip - can't really tell quickly from behind view. Remains unclear whether this check was done by AD or not. HGR apparently said she needed to check the side of the casing to tell whether they were dummies (which is what she thought she was loading) and that she did that.

So how did that live round get in there without anyone noticing?

I think you have some facts wrong. As you can see from the pictures you have posted, blanks have NO projectile. They do have gunpowder, a little packing, and a primer. A dummy round has a projectile, no powder and only a false primer or no primer. Many dummy rounds have a hole drilled in the side.

I have not read anywhere the replica gun was anything other than a replica, can you post some links that say it could be opened and the cylinder be viewed entirely? I don't think that is correct because it would not be a true replica then, and I understand that it is.

 

[MikeF]

Did she use the actual word "dummies"? I haven't seen that at all and I have been hitting refresh on news about this every 5-10. minutes. Do you have a link where now she's saying dummies?

So...the prop master had the code to the safe and was inserted into the chain of handling for the weaponry.

Drilled casings are not, iMO, dummy rounds - they are blanks.

Dummy round - Wikipedia.

Dummy rounds - usually very hard to mistake for anything like a real bullet. Mine are purple.

Blanks.

That being said, one can certainly find more realistic dummy rounds (which, to me, is a really dumb thing to do on a movie set or anywhere else). There should be no confusion about which rounds are completely inert (cold).

At any rate, what's been reported is that it was **blanks** in the remaining chambers, not dummies. So if you're reading "dummies," then that makes me feel more of an attempt was made to be safe - it has been reported that all three types of ammo were on the set.

And it's been reported that the Colt .45 replica was built in modern, not vintage style, so that the cylinder could be popped to the side and spun (but that isn't the way to check whether dummies are in there unless the dummies are in fact coded at the tip - can't really tell quickly from behind view. Remains unclear whether this check was done by AD or not. HGR apparently said she needed to check the side of the casing to tell whether they were dummies (which is what she thought she was loading) and that she did that.

So how did that live round get in there without anyone noticing?

Yes, according to the search warrant (released Wed) she called them dummies.

“Hannah advised on the day of the incident, she checked the ‘dummies’ and ensured they were no ‘hot’ rounds,” the warrant states about the ammo used on set. While the firearms were secured inside the van, “ammo was left on a cart on the set, not secured,” Gutierrez told investigators.

Here is the warrant, the part about her checking the dummies as well as what happened after (Hall taking the weapon off the pew and) back to her, starts on pg 4 (4th paragraph and goes on to pg 5)

https://www.scribd.com/document/535523340/Rust-set-search-warrant#download&from_embed

 

[steeltowngirl]

"I don't care what product you're producing, I don't care if it's a light bulb, a car or a movie – it's a product," he explained. "Every industry has accidents and in order to remove that out of the equation as best you can is you begin every day with safety – you work safely and you end it safely every day."

Still, Riess maintains that everyone on a production set is responsible for one another, and ultimately the project’s associate director – which for "Rust" was first assistant director Dave Halls – should be at the helm of ensuring everyone is operating in a safe manner at all times.

"Yes, you take a half-hour, 40 minutes, not usually longer than an hour to really explain to everybody what the protocol is – if we're shooting in an aurora or riverbed if there is a flash flood, this is our escape route, leave this and take that, etc.," Riess pressed.

"It's required for a crew and even sometimes cast to get into a big kumbaya circle and just say, 'OK, guys, this is what we're up against’ – they introduced this on-set medic if it's the first day – who is doing what and if you have any questions, talk to this person – this is the craft services, etc." he continued. "It takes a little extra time, yes – but who cares? It's about safety."

"There are ways to cut corners and but you don't cut that one," he added. "And again, if you don't have the money, then maybe you should reduce your production down so that it fits in with what money you've got."

‘Rust’ film set shooting ‘puzzling,’ not ‘surprising,’ says former Hollywood crew fixer: ‘Maybe it’s cynicism’

 

[CrimeAway]

My understanding was that movie/theatrical dummies look more like live rounds, than military or other dummies do. I believe that is because the film industry may want to show an actor loading the weapon as part of a scene. This would not look realistic if they used orange etc. dummies. All JMO.

 

[MsMarple]

Alec and Hilaria Baldwin pose with their six kids for Halloween photos amid shooting chaos | Daily Mail Online

So apparently this weekend picture being posted has stirred up some controversy.

My opinion---the children should be able to have fun, dress in their costumes etc.
But I DO NOT think Hilaria had to post this publicly.
I DO NOT think Hilaria should mention how parenting is so intense for her right now.

Halyna's funeral was this weekend. I would guess that parenting has been intense for Halyna's husband a lot more than for the Baldwins.

It's difficult to stir up sympathy for AB and his wife when they are so oblivious to how their bids for attention look to the public. I noticed this line in the article:

• She received positive comments and support from fellow celebrities but faced backlash from public

That about sums it up I guess, with Hollywood stars seeing the posts as publicity while some of us mere mortals see them as vapid, self-centered and insensitive. Surely the Halloween photos will bring their children happy memories in the future whether or not mom posted them on social media? So much me me me.

Wishing peace and comfort to Halyna's husband and son as we enter this year's holiday season.

 

[Gardenista]

'Rust' production staff ordered custom T-shirts mocking camera-crew requests for accommodation, report says

 

[PoppyBear]

How long does and investigation like this take? Did Sheriff Mendoza give an estimate? Right now we are left to discuss who is culpable. I personally find it hard to believe that HGR or the AD can be charged with anything, given that they didn't pull the trigger. Does the job of AD or armorer mean you are culpable (legally) for what happens with guns on movie sets? If so, does that mean a "civilian" (which Alec is) can hire someone to check their weapons and no be held responsible?

ETA: We can all feel differently about this situation, but when it comes to law, who can be charged?

 

[happyday]

I respect your point of view, but IMO this is self-contradictory. If someone did intentionally insert a live round, with a view to exposing the danger on set, then why would they simultaneously expect that the "multiple safety checks" would discover the live bullet before it got into the actor's hands?

The point you and some others are making is that there WERE no multiple safety checks, so therefore to prove the set was dysfunctional, someone inserted a live bullet with the hope it would bring this problem to the forefront. But then that person would expect the "multiple safety checks" to prevent anyone from actually getting hurt, which contradicts the whole point.

Of course I agree that the whole set was messed up and the safety procedures were clearly not adhered to. I just don't agree that it was done purposefully, whether to murder someone, or to prove the point that safety checks were lacking. IMO.

I totally get what you’re saying, and it makes sense. I just wonder if someone put it in there not trying to specifically murder someone, but also didn’t really care. Making a point and if something terrible happens, so be it. If the bullet HAD been caught by say the AD or even AB, the armorer would have been shown for how reckless she was. If the worst happened, then oh well, the armorer (and others) would all be in big trouble. I don’t know, but it’s a way I can make the bullet getting into the gun make sense.

 

[PoppyBear]

I totally get what you’re saying, and it makes sense. I just wonder if someone put it in there not trying to specifically murder someone, but also didn’t really care. Making a point and if something terrible happens, so be it. If the bullet HAD been caught by say the AD or even AB, the armorer would have been shown for how reckless she was. If the worst happened, then oh well, the armorer (and others) would all be in big trouble. I don’t know, but it’s a way I can make the bullet getting into the gun make sense.

I suppose it is possible, but I think it is unlikely the bullet was placed in the firearm in a malicious way. Even if it did happen, that still doesn’t mean the firearm shouldn’t have been checked.

 

[MikeF]

I totally get what you’re saying, and it makes sense. I just wonder if someone put it in there not trying to specifically murder someone, but also didn’t really care. Making a point and if something terrible happens, so be it. If the bullet HAD been caught by say the AD or even AB, the armorer would have been shown for how reckless she was. If the worst happened, then oh well, the armorer (and others) would all be in big trouble. I don’t know, but it’s a way I can make the bullet getting into the gun make sense.

That was my thinking. Someone could have been disgruntled to the point that the live round (or rounds) were to either sabotage the entire set or HGR herself. However that live round was discovered, wasn't a concern for them. If the bullet was found by HGR then I would hope her first action would be to stop all the production that was using weapons. Then sort through ALL the ammo to be sure there wasn't anymore. Had Hall done a full check and caught the live round, then he'd hopefully have made sure HGR was no longer the armorer. And all the ammo looked over much the same. If Baldwin's aim had been off to one side or the other and the bullet went through the wall, I've know doubt he'd have flipped out and had both Hall and HGR removed.

 

[PoppyBear]

That was my thinking. Someone could have been disgruntled to the point that the live round (or rounds) were to either sabotage the entire set or HGR herself. However that live round was discovered, wasn't a concern for them. If the bullet was found by HGR then I would hope her first action would be to stop all the production that was using weapons. Then sort through ALL the ammo to be sure there wasn't anymore. Had Hall done a full check and caught the live round, then he'd hopefully have made sure HGR was no longer the armorer. And all the ammo looked over much the same. If Baldwin's aim had been off to one side or the other and the bullet went through the wall, I've know doubt he'd have flipped out and had both Hall and HGR removed.

And if Baldwin had bothered checking himself, he could have flipped out on others. Instead he became a person who killed someone with a gun because he didn’t check himself. It certainly is not like he isn’t capable of checking himself. Had this been a different actor, this may very well have to happened IMO. AB said it himself. This is “one in a trillion”. He was part of the chain of custody of the weapon and I am failing to understand why he lacks culpability.

 

[shotgun09]

'Rust' production staff ordered custom T-shirts mocking camera-crew requests for accommodation, report says

If this is true...That's about as "In yo face" as you can get. Elitism much?
https://news.yahoo.com/rust-production-staff-ordered-custom-113203197.html