Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #3

[branmuffin]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dummy_roundhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dummy_round

Blank (cartridge) - Wikipedia

Bullet - Wikipedia

Why would a gun on a stage have "dummy" ammo?

If you wanted to see someone loading a revolver or pistol you would use dummy rounds.

If you go to IMDB and count the number of people who were part of the crew for "Rust" and then look at The Harder They Fall (a recent theatrical release Western), and look at the Art Department - you'll see a huge difference. "Rust" has 1 person (which I thought surely was a mistake until it was reported in several news articles that one person refused to be the armourer because they expected that 1 person to be the armourer and the rest of the Art/Props Department).

The Harder They Fall (2021) - Full Cast & Crew - IMDb

There about 30 people in the art department on that film. They also had a large visual effects department, so they could easily add smoke or flash to a gun if they wanted (I haven't seen it). There are two armorers, one of them hired as a "gun trainer" in addition to armorer. The assistant armorer has a boss and is not their own boss.

When I saw how few people were actually working on "Rust" (Sheriff said maybe 100 total - I assume that's everyone, including extras), I was really shocked. I wonder how hiring was actually done...I have theories.

While I don't disagree with you that the movie you highlighted had a significantly larger number of individuals in the Art Department including two armourers, you are comparing apples to oranges. The budget for The Harder They Fall had a budget of 90 million dollars, a far cry from this budget.

The article I have linked to gives a much more realistic expectation for someone who may be interested in joining a movie crew in the art department. A brief excerpt states:

"However, you should be aware that on many music videos, commercials, and micro-budget independent films there is one significant difference. On these projects, the various set dec, art, props, greens, construction, and scenic teams often fold into one department also entitled the art department.

This distinction continues to bring about confusion to those entering the industry. We will discuss this at length in a future post as well as the various structures of the art crew and set decoration roles within the UK and Europe which also differ from the standard North American art department."

More at the link.
Art Department Roles and Hierarchy in Film & TV Production Design

 

[GatorFL]

Then she showed him (the AD) a live round and missed it herself. The buck stops with her.

The Buck Stops Here

Disagree. If the scene called for Alec Baldwin to point the gun at his head and pull the trigger do you really think he would have done it without checking it himself?

 

[Cool Cats]

Disagree. If the scene called for Alec Baldwin to point the gun at his head and pull the trigger do you really think he would have done it without checking it himself?

How bout if another actor was going to be shooting directly at him?

Good point.

Would he have wanted to see the gun checked? Or just taken the AD's word for it saying it was cold?

WOW.

 

[PoppyBear]

Disagree. If the scene called for Alec Baldwin to point the gun at his head and pull the trigger do you really think he would have done it without checking it himself?

Wow. Good point!!

 

[jjenny]

Disagree. If the scene called for Alec Baldwin to point the gun at his head and pull the trigger do you really think he would have done it without checking it himself?

That's what happened with Jon-Erik Hexum. He shot himself in the head on the movie set, playing Russian Roulette.

 

[Antimony]

I am sitting here with my 6 gun to clear up some confusion.
The cylinder(the rotating thing with the bullets in it), rotates clockwise as seen from the rear of the gun. The gun will not do anything if not cocked. It wont fire, It wont click or the cylinder will not rotate. You a gun like this by pulling the hammer back till it locks (catches). When you a single action revolver, the cylinder will rotate clockwise and stop on the cylinder hole that was to the left of the barrel, As seen from the rear of the gun, Opening the gate (bullet hatch) will not show you the "next up" round. Ir will show you the round that will come up after the revolver is cycled 5 more times.
To check the gun: (right handed person) 1. hold the gun in your right hand, not pointing at anyone. 2. Using your left hand cradle the revolver on it's LEFT side. 3. Using your RIGHT thumb, open the gate. 4. using your LEFT thumb, cause the cylinder to to rotate and count the clicks. 5. observe the cylinder view thru the open gate to inspect the loaded rounds or the absence thereof. 6. 5 clicks will show you the entire cylinder. 7. Clicks are cheap, do it twice. 8. You now know the status of the revolver. 9. You do not know if the rounds (if any) are live, dummy, blank or expended.
When the gun is cocked it is ready to fire, whether you are ready or not.

 

[branmuffin]

I wonder the same thing (whether she knew the difference). The picture of dummies I posted above makes it obvious - but there are other dummies that are much less obvious (unfortunately, I can't find them for sale or find a picture...just more pictures of dummies that make it really obvious it's a dummy):

View attachment 319948

I can see how someone could confuse a blank with a live round, I guess (if they didn't know what they were doing). And I guess some people think the term "cold gun" includes blanks (despite industry wide usage being otherwise - and despite everyone knowing by now that blanks can harm people). Surely everyone knows that. Firing a blank at the open prairie or during a High Noon sequence where the shooters are far apart, not such a big deal. But Halyna was about 3-4 feet from Alec's position, the camera did not protect her face because it was a tall shot, and gasses from a blank could still have damaged her eyes.

These are blanks (not dummies):

What I'd like to know is how anyone spinning the cylinder and looking from behind can tell the difference among the three types? And I'd love to know what style of dummy they had. If HGR herself ordered or went to the store and bought the ammo herself (which is what should have happened), did she choose the most similar-looking styles she could find? Why do that? If you're a novice with guns, choose a dummy. that is as obvious as can be. But I do believe the gun has to be held so that the front of the gun faces the person inspecting - something novices are often afraid (understandably) to do. Revolvers can be very safe though, as if the cylinder pops out for inspection, it's impossible to shoot yourself in the face with it in that position, unlike more modern weapons.

I don't think with the F lli Pietta 1873 live fire replica you can spin the cylinder. Which is why I stated in a previous post that the AD when checking the weapon could only see 3 rounds.

 

[GatorFL]

That's what happened with Jon-Erik Hexum. He shot himself in the head on the movie set, playing Russian Roulette.

I think part of the problem on that set was that he did not know a blank was deadly at point blank range, like he was doing.

After the Hexum incident, safety tightened up a lot on production sets.

This is different. All the safety protocols were ignored, and IMO the producers, the armorer, the director and the actor involved, in this case Alec Baldwin, all bear responsibility for the death of one and the injury of another, regardless of where the live ammunition came from. Let's hope there are criminal charges for all. Justice for Halyna.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Disagree. If the scene called for Alec Baldwin to point the gun at his head and pull the trigger do you really think he would have done it without checking it himself?

I actually think he might have, believing it was a cold gun. Jon-Erik Hexum did - and died.

^I see this was covered already.

 

[GatorFL]

I actually think he might have, believing it was a cold gun. Jon-Erik Hexum did - and died.

Hexum thought blanks wouldn't hurt him, and he payed for it with his life.

 

[Laughing]

I am sitting here with my 6 gun to clear up some confusion.
The cylinder(the rotating thing with the bullets in it), rotates clockwise as seen from the rear of the gun. The gun will not do anything if not cocked. It wont fire, It wont click or the cylinder will not rotate. You a gun like this by pulling the hammer back till it locks (catches). When you a single action revolver, the cylinder will rotate clockwise and stop on the cylinder hole that was to the left of the barrel, As seen from the rear of the gun, Opening the gate (bullet hatch) will not show you the "next up" round. Ir will show you the round that will come up after the revolver is cycled 5 more times.
To check the gun: (right handed person) 1. hold the gun in your right hand, not pointing at anyone. 2. Using your left hand cradle the revolver on it's LEFT side. 3. Using your RIGHT thumb, open the gate. 4. using your LEFT thumb, cause the cylinder to to rotate and count the clicks. 5. observe the cylinder view thru the open gate to inspect the loaded rounds or the absence thereof. 6. 5 clicks will show you the entire cylinder. 7. Clicks are cheap, do it twice. 8. You now know the status of the revolver. 9. You do not know if the rounds (if any) are live, dummy, blank or expended.
When the gun is cocked it is ready to fire, whether you are ready or not.

Thank you, I did take out a pistol with a magazine -- just not the same.

Thank you.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Had AB previously rehearsed with this particular gun prior to the time that Halyna was killed? Anyone know?

 

[GatorFL]

I am sitting here with my 6 gun to clear up some confusion.
The cylinder(the rotating thing with the bullets in it), rotates clockwise as seen from the rear of the gun. The gun will not do anything if not cocked. It wont fire, It wont click or the cylinder will not rotate. You a gun like this by pulling the hammer back till it locks (catches). When you a single action revolver, the cylinder will rotate clockwise and stop on the cylinder hole that was to the left of the barrel, As seen from the rear of the gun, Opening the gate (bullet hatch) will not show you the "next up" round. Ir will show you the round that will come up after the revolver is cycled 5 more times.
To check the gun: (right handed person) 1. hold the gun in your right hand, not pointing at anyone. 2. Using your left hand cradle the revolver on it's LEFT side. 3. Using your RIGHT thumb, open the gate. 4. using your LEFT thumb, cause the cylinder to to rotate and count the clicks. 5. observe the cylinder view thru the open gate to inspect the loaded rounds or the absence thereof. 6. 5 clicks will show you the entire cylinder. 7. Clicks are cheap, do it twice. 8. You now know the status of the revolver. 9. You do not know if the rounds (if any) are live, dummy, blank or expended.
When the gun is cocked it is ready to fire, whether you are ready or not.

It is easy to see why gun manufacturers changed how cylinders work in wheel guns. Modern designs with the swing out cylinder are more accessible, safer, and quicker to reload than the early models with the fixed cylinder.

 

[steeltowngirl]

He didn't pick it from the cart because she gave it to him. She showed Halls the gun, he remembers seeing 3 rounds.

I am confused. The affidavit said Halls picked up the gun from a cart. Was HGR in the church at the moment Halyna was shot?

Which of these is the correct sequence? Or neither?

1)
HGR sets 3 guns on cart
Halls picks up one gun from cart
Halls hands gun to AB

2)
HGR hands gun to Halls
Halls hands gun to AB

 

[Laughing]

It is easy to see why gun manufacturers changed how cylinders work in wheel guns. Modern designs with the swing out cylinder are more accessible, safer, and quicker to reload than the early models with the fixed cylinder.

Ah, but the six-shooter is so much faster than muzzle-loaders!

 

[jjenny]

I am confused. The affidavit said Halls picked up the gun from a cart. Was HGR in the church at the moment Halyna was shot?

Which of these is the correct sequence? Or neither?

1)
HGR sets 3 guns on cart
Halls picks up one gun from cart
Halls hands gun to AB

2)
HGR hands gun to Halls
Halls hands gun to AB

2) HGR handed gun to Halls. Halls handed gun to AB.
Halls himself said that much.

 

[Luna20]

I am confused. The affidavit said Halls picked up the gun from a cart. Was HGR in the church at the moment Halyna was shot?

Which of these is the correct sequence? Or neither?

1)
HGR sets 3 guns on cart
Halls picks up one gun from cart
Halls hands gun to AB

2)
HGR hands gun to Halls
Halls hands gun to AB

95% on #2. Ive only seen one or two articles saying your #1.

 

[jjenny]

Hexum thought blanks wouldn't hurt him, and he payed for it with his life.

So, poorly informed.

 

[steeltowngirl]

On Monday, Lisa Torraco, the attorney for Rust assistant director Dave Halls, had a tense exchange with Martha MacCallum of Fox News, in which the lawyer shifted the blame for last week’s fatal set shooting away from her client.

It had been widely reported that it was Halls who handed the firearm to Alec Baldwin without checking it first, and after declaring the gun was “cold” — or empty.

…
When questioned if her client indeed handed the weapon to the actor, Torraco demurred. “The armorer [Hanna Gutierrez-Reed] brought the firearm in to the scene. The armorer is responsible, they make sure the firearm is safe. The armorer opens the revolver, opens the round [sic]. My client didn’t load the firearm. My client didn’t point it and he didn’t pull the trigger,” Torraco insisted.

…
The lawyer claimed facts in the case were being “twisted.”

MacCallum repeatedly asked Torraco if Halls handed the gun to Baldwin, but she was evasive.

“What I’m saying is I want to put the facts together. I want to deal with evidence,” she said.

She also added, “Whether or not he handed the firearm directly to Alec Baldwin at that moment or whether the armorer handed it to Alec Baldwin at that moment doesn’t really matter because he didn’t load it, he’s not responsible for checking it.”

…
Torraco repeatedly mentioned another unidentified crew member “touched” the gun, too.

Lawyer for ‘Rust’ assistant director in tense exchange on Fox News; “He’s not responsible” - Connect FM | Local News Radio | Dubois, PA

 

[Gardenista]

I am confused. The affidavit said Halls picked up the gun from a cart. Was HGR in the church at the moment Halyna was shot?

Which of these is the correct sequence? Or neither?

1)
HGR sets 3 guns on cart
Halls picks up one gun from cart
Halls hands gun to AB

2)
HGR hands gun to Halls
Halls hands gun to AB

Not sure. Hall's attorney introduced 2 more people to the event. If you ask me he needs to fire her immediately. Her interview was a hot mess.