Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #3

[GRT]

Maybe it will come down to that. Was it reasonable for AB to believe the gun he was handed was safe? If it gets to a criminal or civil court - will a jury defer to what he should have considered based on his previous experience? Or will they find it was reasonable for him to believe the gun was safe, per the chain of custody handoff?

No matter how this issues is decided, I think this may be a catalyst for the industry requiring thorough training for actors who handle guns in the future.

 

[everybodhi]

Both of those were blanks as far as I can tell, not live ammo (real bullets).

Ask Brandon Lee about firing blanks.
oh wait..

 

[steeltowngirl]

Hmmm. Looks like California requires a “weapons master” to hold an Entertainment Firearms Permit (EFP) to be legally employed by a production. What are New Mexico’s requirements?

During production, the weapons master oversees all weapons—firearms and edge weapons—on set, and ensures they’re all being used properly and safely by training actors on proper handling and use. Every time a weapon is used during production, the weapons master will be on set to prep and hand it to the actor or stuntman when directed and handle it between and after takes. They are also responsible for coming up with a list of weapons that make sense for a production’s theme and era.

Weapons Master Required Experience + Skills
While there’s no formal training path for a weapons master, prior experience in security or military work is common, as is stunt work. Deep knowledge about weapons and the history of weapons is also crucial—many weapons masters are skilled in a specific weapon or genre.

“There’s no better place to learn things than on set,” weapons master Anthony DeLongis (“Fearless,” “iCarly”) says, but that approach won’t work unless you have a foundation first. “Don’t think you're going to learn something that involves high skills after you get the job.”

A weapons master must also have the proper licenses and permits to operate. For example, California requires a weapons master to hold an Entertainment Firearms Permit (EFP) to be legally employed by a production.

https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/weapons-master-70399/

 

[jjenny]

Ask Brandon Lee about firing blanks.
oh wait..

Brandon Lee was killed by a fragment of a bullet that got stuck in the barrel.

 

[jjenny]

Hmmm. Looks like California requires a “weapons master” to hold an Entertainment Firearms Permit (EFP) to be legally employed by a production. What are New Mexico’s requirements?

During production, the weapons master oversees all weapons—firearms and edge weapons—on set, and ensures they’re all being used properly and safely by training actors on proper handling and use. Every time a weapon is used during production, the weapons master will be on set to prep and hand it to the actor or stuntman when directed and handle it between and after takes. They are also responsible for coming up with a list of weapons that make sense for a production’s theme and era.

Weapons Master Required Experience + Skills
While there’s no formal training path for a weapons master, prior experience in security or military work is common, as is stunt work. Deep knowledge about weapons and the history of weapons is also crucial—many weapons masters are skilled in a specific weapon or genre.

“There’s no better place to learn things than on set,” weapons master Anthony DeLongis (“Fearless,” “iCarly”) says, but that approach won’t work unless you have a foundation first. “Don’t think you're going to learn something that involves high skills after you get the job.”

A weapons master must also have the proper licenses and permits to operate. For example, California requires a weapons master to hold an Entertainment Firearms Permit (EFP) to be legally employed by a production.

https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/weapons-master-70399/

As far as I can tell, HGR foundation was that her father was an experienced armorer. She wasn't in a military and didn't do security work. My guess people assumed she was extensively trained by her father, but it doesn't appear to be the case to me, based on some statements she made.

 

[Dotta]

I think this^^^ attorney is incorrect and may be purposely muddying the waters when saying it was not the AD's responsibility to check the gun. Here is what a firearms specialist with 30 years of film experience says:

On film sets, the person most responsible for safety is usually the First Assistant Director, and as a result they will also inspect the firearm -- a task the director, producer, camera operator or cinematographer may oversee, too.
Every single person on set -- cast or crew -- has the right to inspect a prop gun. But the specialist is the only person who will hand the firearm to an actor for use, and the specialist is the same person who receives it back when the talent is done.

WHAT ARE THE RULES FOR FIREARMS ON SET?

The weapons master is required to be on set whenever a weapon is being used. The Actors' Equity Association's guidelines state that, “Before each use, make sure the gun has been test-fired off stage and then ask to test fire it yourself. Watch the prop master check the cylinders and barrel to be sure no foreign object or dummy bullet has become lodged inside."

Further, “All loading of firearms must be done by the property master, armorer or experienced persons working under their direct supervision.”

Opinion: Guns can be safely used on a film set -- but only if you follow the rules - CNN

You are absolutely right!

 

[everybodhi]

Brandon Lee was killed by a fragment of a bullet that got stuck in the barrel.

What kind of bullet?
A blank that set off a dummy if I'm not mistaken.
Cold gun, right?
ETA: Not, in your words, a "(real bullet)"

 

[jjenny]

What kind of bullet?
A blank that set off a dummy if I'm not mistaken.
Cold gun, right?
ETA: Not, in your words, a "(real bullet)"

Guns loaded with blanks are considered hot (gun loaded with dummies is considered cold). Lee with killed with bullet lodged in the gun (gun was loaded with blanks). Blanks don't have bullets, but if the bullet is lodged in the gun from earlier, an accident such as this could potentially happen, which is why a barrel of the gun must be checked by an armorer.

"The thriller only had eight days of shooting remaining in Wilmington, N.C., when Lee prepared himself for a scene in which his character is shot and killed by Funboy, played by actor Michael Massee. Before the scene on March 31, 1993, Massee believed the prop gun he was handed was loaded with blanks. Unbeknown to the crew or Massee, the tip of a .44-caliber bullet had become lodged in the barrel of the prop gun weeks before."
Brandon Lee was killed by a prop gun in 1993 before Alec Baldwin incident - The Washington Post

 

[everybodhi]

Both of those were blanks as far as I can tell, not live ammo (real bullets).

Guns loaded with blanks are considered hot.

Okay, glad that's clear.
When new safety protocols were put into place after Brandon Lee died on set, it wasn't because he was killed by a live bullet.
He was killed by a squib load when a dummy was fired into him by a blank shot.
A dummy bullet killed him, that's what they pulled out of his dead body.

 

[jjenny]

Okay, glad that's clear.
When new safety protocols were put into place after Brandon Lee died on set, it wasn't because he was killed by a live bullet.
He was killed by a squib load when a dummy was fired into him by a blank shot.
A dummy bullet killed him, that's what they pulled out of his dead body.

Again, blanks don't have bullets. Bullet was stuck in the barrel from the previous scene (weeks before). Which is why the barrel of the gun must also be checked, to make sure nothing is stuck in there.

"It was later revealed through the autopsy that Lee's death was the result of a .44-caliber bullet discovered near Lee's spine. That drew criticism of the movie set's safety. While the gun contained blank ammunition, a lethal obstruction had been lodged in the barrel during the filming of another scene weeks before."
Brandon Lee's fiancee speaks out after Alec Baldwin prop gun shooting (usatoday.com)

 

[everybodhi]

Guns loaded with blanks are considered hot (gun loaded with dummies is considered cold). Lee with killed with bullet lodged in the gun (gun was loaded with blanks). Blanks don't have bullets, but if the bullet is lodged in the gun from earlier, an accident such as this could potentially happen, which is why a barrel of the gun must be checked by an armorer.

"The thriller only had eight days of shooting remaining in Wilmington, N.C., when Lee prepared himself for a scene in which his character is shot and killed by Funboy, played by actor Michael Massee. Before the scene on March 31, 1993, Massee believed the prop gun he was handed was loaded with blanks. Unbeknown to the crew or Massee, the tip of a .44-caliber bullet had become lodged in the barrel of the prop gun weeks before."
Brandon Lee was killed by a prop gun in 1993 before Alec Baldwin incident - The Washington Post

I don't have a subscription to Wapo.

https://www.google.co.id/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-02-ca-18323-story.html?_amp=true

They said that they recovered the .44-caliber handgun from the movie set along with what appeared to be two spent casings, one from a blank round and the other from a “dummy” bullet used in the filming. In filming, “dummy” rounds, which look like real bullets, are placed in the cylinder of guns for close-up shots so they appear to be loaded.

Simmons said his interview of the special-effects person raised the possibility that the gun was loaded with the dummy bullet for a close-up shot and when the gun was unloaded the slug had become dislodged from the dummy shell casing and the tip had remained in the cylinder or the barrel. When the blank round was then inserted, the pistol could have discharged like a loaded firearm.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Who loaded the gun, and when?

The personal loading of firearms or the personal designation of an experienced person working under his or her immediate supervision to load the firearms. Firearms are to be loaded just before they are used in a scene.

https://www.csatf.org/all_safety_bulletins-procedural_guidelines-info_fact_sheets/

 

[jjenny]

But blanks don't have bullets. If gun is loaded is blank, it is still considered hot, but unless there is something stuck in the barrel, it's not going to fire a lead projectile (bullet).
Dummies are inert, so gun loaded with dummies is considered cold on a movie set. Baldwin was given what was supposed to have been a cold gun. Cold gun if it actually is a cold gun, is not going to fire a bullet or make noise.

 

[mickey2942]

Since there have been literally 1,000's of movies/tv shows that have guns on the set, and very few fatalities, the safety processes in place are working.

When the correct procedures are followed. Which obviously didn't occur on this set.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

I still can't get it out of my mind that he would have had the gun checked in front of him if the script had called for another actor to grab his gun from him then shoot him with it.

Hummm....

I don't know. After you've done dozens of films with guns, it might actually make you more trusting of the process others have put in place, particularly if you are not a "gun person" in real life.

We think we know what he would have done in that situation because we think we know what we would have done. In fact, I don't think we can know either because we do not have his experiences behind us. And past experiences always affect how we end up handling things.

 

[happyday]

100% agree, Betty P. The departing 7 crew members had nothing to demonstrate or "prove" regarding an unsafe set, since multiple accidental firearm discharges had already occurred. More importantly, I simply cannot imagine any worker who walked off set in protest would ever want to even remotely endanger any of their colleagues, no matter how angry they were with the brass at the top.

I mostly agree with this, but it only takes one with abnormal thinking. Most office workers in any given office if angry about something work related would never leave, get a gun and come back shooting up co workers.But it does occasionally happen. There are crazy people in any profession. I just think it has to be looked at (and it will be.) It doesn’t even have to be one of the crew members who walked off—I’m sure lots of others were unhappy as well. It’s probably not the case, but we already know there were many breakdowns in safety procedures and unqualified people doing important jobs which led to a bullet being undiscovered which led to the accidental shooting and death. What we DON’T know is who put the bullet in the gun and why. IMO Most likely left over from all the drinking and plinking that was possibly going on at night. But that’s unconfirmed at this point and I’ve got everything on the table.

 

[jjenny]

Bullet could have just been loaded instead of a dummy by mistake through the normal loading process. We know police say there was live ammo on the set, which is normally not a good idea. If you have live ammo and dummies in close proximity to each other and not paying attention, live ammo could be loaded instead of a dummy. There doesn't have to be some nefarious reason behind this.

 

[happyday]

Well, then the parents weren't really watching the party, were they? Or they wouldn't have missed drunk kids staggering around.

I don’t think the OP is saying she did her job correctly, but that there’s more to it coming from the top? If budget for accommodations was so bad and crew members were sleeping on set, who knows what they’re up to unsupervised? She should have been more vigilant about what was going on in her department and what kind of ammo was around 100%, but if crew was able to just be borrowing prop guns overnight and loading with real ammo—there were WAY more problems than just this unqualified armorer IMO. The fact that she was hired at all is a problem.
Sorry to put words in OP’s mouth! This is my opinion.

 

[jjenny]

I don’t think the OP is saying she did her job correctly, but that there’s more to it coming from the top? If budget for accommodations was so bad and crew members were sleeping on set, who knows what they’re up to unsupervised? She should have been more vigilant about what was going on in her department and what kind of ammo was around 100%, but if crew was able to just be borrowing prop guns overnight and loading with real ammo—there were WAY more problems than just this unqualified armorer IMO. The fact that she was hired at all is a problem.
Sorry to put words in OP’s mouth! This is my opinion.

Planking is just a rumor at this point. We don't know for sure if it was actually happening. And if it was, it's safe to assume guns weren't securely locked up-how would the crew just borrow them-they should be in a locked safe. As for hiring, that seemed to have been a disaster to have two people who appears to not have a lot of experience as a propmaster (who supposedly managed to shoot herself in a foot with a blank) and promaster's assistant/armorer. Trying to save a $ is going to cost a lot of $ in the end.

 

[mickey2942]

What kind of show was this place running? With people sleeping on the set? And it sounded like other people had a problem with getting paid, the production company wasn't paying the hotel for people to stay at...crazy. They wanted workers to stay at hotels over an hour away!

'Rust' Set Was Chaotic Prior to Fatal Accident - Variety

If Alec Baldwin’s name is part of the production team, a vacation with six kids in Vermont is not going to help.