All Sauvie Island Searches

[ThoughtFox]

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/water.pdf

Sinking, putrefaction and refloating A body in water will usually sink but because the specific gravity of a body is very close to that of water then small variations e.g. air trapped in clothing have a considerable effect on buoyancy. Having sunk to the bottom the body will remain there until putrefactive gas formation decreases the specific gravity of the body and creates sufficient buoyancy to allow it to rise to the surface and float. Heavy clothing and weights attached to the body may delay but will not usually prevent the body rising. Putrefaction proceeds at a slower rate in water than in air, in sea water than in fresh water and in running water than in stagnant water. The principal determinant is the temperature of the water so that in deep very cold water e.g. the North American Great Lakes or the ocean the body may never resurface.

 

[grandmaj]

Parking Lot thread posts and discussion cannot be brought to this forum. Thanks.

 

[sarx]

I believe that is true, but if Kyron were let go in the waters close to SI, I do not believe his body would make it down to the area where salt in the water would have any influence. Could his body travel approx 30 miles ??? to where the salt and fresh water mix would be? I doubt it sincerely. And if so, the water would be a mix, and not strong with salt. IMO.

What are the currents like? A body can easily travel that far if the currents are strong enough, but it would also depend on temps, flows and obstacles. Salt or fresh, a body will come to the surface because of the gases inside the corpse, the timing may be different depending on salt, fresh, temperature, etc, but it's going to surface at some point regardless. It will then however sink back down regardless.

 

[RoseTree]

Sarx, do you know how long a body usually floats? Do most bodies sink oagain or wash up?

 

[sarx]

Sarx, do you know how long a body usually floats? Do most bodies sink oagain or wash up?

I hesitate to answer as there are SO MANY variables. Sometimes a body will float, then sink, then resurface, then sink again. Depending on a lot of variables it can take a couple hours or weeks before a body rises back to the surface. Depending on a ton of variables when the body resurfaces (is brought up to the surface because of the gases and decomposition going on internally) it can stay at the surface for anywhere from a few hours to a few days before it sinks again. Whether or not it washes up will depend on where it is in relation to land, though the same holds true for a body that is underwater as well. There are currents running at the bottom of the body of water just like at the top, so just because something is submerged doesn't mean it won't move.

ETA-In cases of a body being weighted down or placed in bags, etc, everything changes.

This is just an almost impossible thing to answer.

 

[K9Snoop]

I hesitate to answer as there are SO MANY variables.
This is just an almost impossible thing to answer.

Just to give more of an idea what SARX means by variables and how they affect bodies in water.

For example:

-when was the last meal and what was it? Some foods/beverages produce more gass then others allowing bodies to surface faster.

-Age, weight, height

-what type of clothing, layers involved, what kind of footwear? Heavier clothing/boots can increased submerged time and reduce float time.

-body wounds. Loss of skin integrity could prevent the body from surfacing because the gas cannot accumulate enough to overcome body weight.

-Body composition: obese people float faster then muscular people.

-children are less prone to sufacing then adults but this can vary due to body composition.

-medications, drugs, or alcohol

-type of water: fresh water or salt? Lake, river, spring fed, stagnate, tidal, quarry, etc currents can shift a body quickly. Tidal shifts can move a body rapidly or simply shift it back and forth over the same stretch of water. Sometimes the search must be timed to low, slack tide.

-victims in 30-40 degree water may not surface at all until water warms

-victims below 100+ft may not surface due to combinations of pressure and temps

-water temps affect how fast a body may surface. if the water is 40 degrees it could take 14-20 days while water at 80 degrees could get a body up in as little as 1-2 days.

-obstructions such as dams, strainers (submerged trees/brush), underwater obstructions which could capture a body and hold it. Sandbars, submerged currents, wave action, wind speeds can alter body movements.

-If the victim was dead before they enter the water.

To understand how far a body can travel consider that the Nat'l Underwater Rescue-Recovery institute documented one victim's body that had traveled 175 miles in 3 days.

These variables, plus many, many more, are why water searches are some of the most frustrating. It's part science, part intuition, part luck. And this are some of the variables for straight forward water searches. Now consider how many more are added if it's not a straight forward drowning such as:

-body's physical state if deceased
-intact or dismembered
-additional weighting of body
-marine predation


Using a hydrologist (someone who has studied the circulation, distribution, and properties of water) and really help a search team with unusual situations.

 

[sarx]

Yeah, see I was going to do that, but I was afraid I would just have people's heads spinning. LOL Though, maybe it is good to really show how complicated it is...

 

[K9Snoop]

Yeah, see I was going to do that, but I was afraid I would just have people's heads spinning. LOL Though, maybe it is good to really show how complicated it is...

I know, I know. My head was spinning while I was writing it and I had to go back and clarify over and over to make it more understandable without writing a book. Then this morning I realized that I had mainly touched only on body aspects without really going much into the hydralic dynamics such as backflows, eddies, whirlpools, water flow and speed, water course features such as oxbows, waterfalls, bottom surface features such as rocks or holes, rainfall or fresh water intrusions which increase/decrease flow rates, surface ice, seasonal flows, water turbidity, fresh, salt, brackish, specific gravity, surface temp, bottom temp, thermoclines, etc. Manmade features such as piers, dams, culverts, surface traffic, fishing activities, water intakes for turbines or industry, discharge pipes, etc (must stop as my head's spinning again...) and on, and on, and on, just touch on more aspects.

So then searchers have to pull body data, accident dynamics, water features and characteristics all together and figure out *where* to look. And this is for the simple water searches so you can imagine what the "complicated" ones are like......

Sidescan sonar, underwater cameras, dogs, divers, etc are all tools used. I've seen searchers drop whole jugs of milk (with the top opened) into the water in order to use the milk's release to check on flow rates and direction of travel. I know one team who got so frustrated they dug out the fire department's rescue manikin, weighted to the victim's weight, and dumped it into the water to see where it would turn up. Historical records of past recoveries help alot.
But, hopefully, now, folks can begin to understand why these searches can take alot of time because the body can literally keep moving and where it was yesterday or in the last hour is not where it is now.

 

[scandi]

What are the currents like? A body can easily travel that far if the currents are strong enough, but it would also depend on temps, flows and obstacles. Salt or fresh, a body will come to the surface because of the gases inside the corpse, the timing may be different depending on salt, fresh, temperature, etc, but it's going to surface at some point regardless. It will then however sink back down regardless.

Hi Sarx, My, what a bevy of wonderfully informative posts from all. Reminds me how we posters laughed after sleuthing the Scott Peterson case as to how many topics we had become quite knowlegable in. Ya Ya

I found this link which answers the question about currents around SI, both in the Multnomah Channel and Columbia River. We forget that ocean going vessels go right past the island and from what I read here, there is considerable tidal current in both bodies of water:

http://sauvieisland.org/visitor-information/natural-attractions/lakes-and-waterways/

I think one could compare currant action to waves out in the ocean. The water doesn't travel. It is the force that travels thru the water that creates the current. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. xox

 

[K9Snoop]

I think one could compare currant action to waves out in the ocean. The water doesn't travel. It is the force that travels thru the water that creates the current. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. xox

Can you explain further what you mean by current action, wave action, and water doesn't travel.

I'm a bit confused as water moves all the time (there are always some exceptions but not relavent here) but items passing through the water can increase some movement due to the vessel's dragging action.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Are there any more searches with cadaver dogs planned anywhere soon?

 

[sarx]

Are there any more searches with cadaver dogs planned anywhere soon?

Is there evidence or reason to look somewhere specific?

 

[scandi]

Can you explain further what you mean by current action, wave action, and water doesn't travel.

I'm a bit confused as water moves all the time (there are always some exceptions but not relavent here) but items passing through the water can increase some movement due to the vessel's dragging action.

I'm not really sure either except I know with a tidal wave the energy goes thru the water and it causes the water to raise and fall in place. Of course when the water hits an obstruction or land it breaks the cycle and has to go somewhere, right? How the current affects that I don't know - or even really how the current is generated.

I looked online last night for an answer to your question but all I could find is using waves to create energy, as in power like Portugal has. That is how they generate most of the power for their country.

 

[miabellamoure]

Just to give more of an idea what SARX means by variables and how they affect bodies in water.

For example:

-when was the last meal and what was it? Some foods/beverages produce more gass then others allowing bodies to surface faster.

-Age, weight, height

-what type of clothing, layers involved, what kind of footwear? Heavier clothing/boots can increased submerged time and reduce float time.

-body wounds. Loss of skin integrity could prevent the body from surfacing because the gas cannot accumulate enough to overcome body weight.

-Body composition: obese people float faster then muscular people.

-children are less prone to sufacing then adults but this can vary due to body composition.

-medications, drugs, or alcohol

-type of water: fresh water or salt? Lake, river, spring fed, stagnate, tidal, quarry, etc currents can shift a body quickly. Tidal shifts can move a body rapidly or simply shift it back and forth over the same stretch of water. Sometimes the search must be timed to low, slack tide.

-victims in 30-40 degree water may not surface at all until water warms

-victims below 100+ft may not surface due to combinations of pressure and temps

-water temps affect how fast a body may surface. if the water is 40 degrees it could take 14-20 days while water at 80 degrees could get a body up in as little as 1-2 days.

-obstructions such as dams, strainers (submerged trees/brush), underwater obstructions which could capture a body and hold it. Sandbars, submerged currents, wave action, wind speeds can alter body movements.

-If the victim was dead before they enter the water.

To understand how far a body can travel consider that the Nat'l Underwater Rescue-Recovery institute documented one victim's body that had traveled 175 miles in 3 days.

These variables, plus many, many more, are why water searches are some of the most frustrating. It's part science, part intuition, part luck. And this are some of the variables for straight forward water searches. Now consider how many more are added if it's not a straight forward drowning such as:

-body's physical state if deceased
-intact or dismembered
-additional weighting of body
-marine predation


Using a hydrologist (someone who has studied the circulation, distribution, and properties of water) and really help a search team with unusual situations.

I know, I know. My head was spinning while I was writing it and I had to go back and clarify over and over to make it more understandable without writing a book. Then this morning I realized that I had mainly touched only on body aspects without really going much into the hydralic dynamics such as backflows, eddies, whirlpools, water flow and speed, water course features such as oxbows, waterfalls, bottom surface features such as rocks or holes, rainfall or fresh water intrusions which increase/decrease flow rates, surface ice, seasonal flows, water turbidity, fresh, salt, brackish, specific gravity, surface temp, bottom temp, thermoclines, etc. Manmade features such as piers, dams, culverts, surface traffic, fishing activities, water intakes for turbines or industry, discharge pipes, etc (must stop as my head's spinning again...) and on, and on, and on, just touch on more aspects.

So then searchers have to pull body data, accident dynamics, water features and characteristics all together and figure out *where* to look. And this is for the simple water searches so you can imagine what the "complicated" ones are like......

Sidescan sonar, underwater cameras, dogs, divers, etc are all tools used. I've seen searchers drop whole jugs of milk (with the top opened) into the water in order to use the milk's release to check on flow rates and direction of travel. I know one team who got so frustrated they dug out the fire department's rescue manikin, weighted to the victim's weight, and dumped it into the water to see where it would turn up. Historical records of past recoveries help alot.
But, hopefully, now, folks can begin to understand why these searches can take alot of time because the body can literally keep moving and where it was yesterday or in the last hour is not where it is now.

A simple thank you was not enough for such a wonderful post of exactly the kind of info I was wondering about...:tyou:

With Spring just around the corner, I begin to think again if this will be the season that will uncover the clues to bring sweet Kyron home!

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Is there evidence or reason to look somewhere specific?

I don't know.I would have someone check where ever anyone said cadaver dogs had a hit or possibly back a little further away from where they checked at the school.Especially Cornellius Pass Rd.Side roads?Anywhere and everywhere.It sure couldn't hurt.Right?I know it might be too cold out now.

P.S.I'm curious any of the drainage pipes near the school ect...Where do they empty water into?(I hope I explained that right)Where does it go to?Empty into?

 

[K9Snoop]

I don't know.I would have someone check where ever anyone said cadaver dogs had a hit or possibly back a little further away from where they checked at the school.Especially Cornellius Pass Rd.Side roads?Anywhere and everywhere.It sure couldn't hurt.Right?I know it might be too cold out now.

P.S.I'm curious any of the drainage pipes near the school ect...Where do they empty water into?(I hope I explained that right)Where does it go to?Empty into?

When looking for people it never hurts to recheck an area. And sometimes the temperature can affect a search. If very cold you may have to time your search to the rising sun and warming temps which stirs up the resting air after a long, cold night making it more available to the dog or if the day is very warm then toward the evening when the scent is starting to settle down into ground features and scent traps.

Now why I say it never hurts to re-search an area is that it is not unknown for people to either wander back into or hide evidence into an area that has been previously searched.

The drainage thing is something a ground walker can determine. If in a city, then public works have the drawings and plans for all sewage/drainage pipes. In rural areas the water is normally channeled off into a natural drainage feature such as a gully way, creek, or river. These drainages are normally where searchers first examine as lost people and scent are quickly and easily channeled into these features. However, if someone in the local area is willing they can visually inspect these areas and figure out where the water goes.

But one thing everyone must keep in the back of their minds is “how many times do you search an area?” At what point do you say “if it was there we would have found it”. For example if you thought you misplaced something in your house (say your car keys) how many times would you search through the same room again and again before you decide the keys are not in this room? 2 times? 5 times? 10 times? So even though you want to check an area again, the flip side of this is someone saying “we checked it 20 times already, if it was there we would have found it”. So this is why after an exhaustive painstaking search (and that’s what this has been) an area may not be re-examined unless further information or intelligence is generated to merit a new search.

 

[K9Snoop]

I'm not really sure either except I know with a tidal wave the energy goes thru the water and it causes the water to raise and fall in place. Of course when the water hits an obstruction or land it breaks the cycle and has to go somewhere, right? How the current affects that I don't know - or even really how the current is generated.

A tidal wave is energy that is normally due to water displacement at the epicenter. So you are right in that its the energy not the water that is moving. However, it is an extreme example and is not how normal water flows. Energy can be generated by means of a turbine due to motion of the water (wave and/or current action) in part because of the weight of the water (water weighs approx 8lbs per gallon) and consistancy of the motion or flow hitting again the turbine fans (think of the old fashioned water wheels).

Water normally flows from higher to lower elevations. Back pressures such as flooding rains, snow melt which increase water flow into a given area can increase normal river currents due to the volume and weight of the water coming behind it. If the volume and weight of the water coming into an area is more what can fit into the creek or river then you get flooding. Tidal action caused by the moon is also considered part of the normal ebb and flow because it happens on a regular, routine basis (unlike a tidal wave) but there are extremes of this such as 10-20 ft changes that happen in the Bay of Fundy area. This is more of how water works then a tidal wave situation.

 

[RoseTree]

This may be OT, but when Sauvie was searched, did LE also search the landfill?

 

[pdx]

This may be OT, but when Sauvie was searched, did LE also search the landfill?

What landfill?

 

[dog.gone.cute]

This may have been covered previously or on another thread . .

But . . . WHY hasn't KH and DY contacted Tim Miller of Texas EquuSearch to search for Kyron ?


There is a great article today on Tim Miller and TES in my local newspaper. :great::woohoo:

"Founder of rescue group that found body in river is motivated by death of his teenage daughter"

Published: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 8:00 AM
By Bob Ross, The Times-Picayune

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2011/01/founder_of_volunteer_texas_res.html
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I wish that Tim and TES could be brought in to find Kyron . . . :banghead:

If I posted this on the wrong post, please correct for me. Thank You.

Hope