All Sauvie Island Searches

[scandi]

Peterson's body was so badly decomposed it barely looked like a body after it was found in San Francisco Bay last month. However, the autopsy report showed her cervix was intact.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90600&page=1

It was almost a month from the time she was spotted on the bay floor till she washed up. The body many of us here saw on Greta's show looked like a body that was still pregnant. It was covered with what turned out to be crabs that were constantly moving. Conner was released from the body only a short time before she washed up - a day or so, so she still held him until then. In that 3 week time the crabs must have done a lot of damage to the remains and opened up the hole in her stomach from which Conner was freed. xox

PS: One of our posters here's family was watching the show when the body was shown. Her little girl said "Look mommy, there's a baby's leg". We all saw it too, and there was one part of Conner's body that was much more damaged than the rest - I think the quadrant with a leg.

 

[ThoughtFox]

No, you are correct.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90689&page=1

Investigators have refused to comment about the specific condition of the remains, but there were reports that only a decaying torso was found, and it was not possible to get fingerprints. A full-term, decaying male fetus with the umbilical cord still attached was found Sunday, about a mile away.

Thank you for the quote ~ I should have said "partially skeletonized," which was the case. I know because I remember the pictures from the day she washed ashore (who could forget it?).

(Sorry too that the following is pretty graphic)

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/family/laci_peterson/11.html

On April 13, 2003, a couple walking their dog in Point Isabel State Park found a male fetus. The next day, the body of a pregnant woman washed ashore nearby was discovered by another dog-walker. This was some 90 miles from the couple's home, but just 5 miles from the Berkeley Marina where Scott had said he'd gone fishing the morning of Christmas Eve.

The baby was well preserved. Not much more than a skeleton remained of Laci Peterson. Her hands, feet, and head were missing. Her ribs had been fractured. There was still duct tape on her thighs. As Laci's body decomposed, the abdomen and uterus had torn, expelling the fetus.

Forensic scientists were able to get genetic material from her tibia and from the baby's femur. Her DNA matched DNA swabs taken from her parents. The baby's DNA matched the Rochas, as well as a blood sample that the courts had mandated Scott give.

 

[miabellamoure]

I don't think a lot of rain is going to hurt many aspects of the search, it's been so long already... Other than making things a soupy mess and needing some time to dry out it won't permanently hurt future searches. In terms of dogs, it's been way too long for all but HRD dogs (human remains detection dogs (also incorrectly labeled cadaver dogs)). As for HRD dogs, again, it will delay the search possibly but not destroy the opportunity.
The possibility of him moving in water is there, but again, it's been a lot of months so if he is in water it's going to be tough.

In terms of human decomposition in water, let's say Sauvie Island for example...what would one expect to discover in regards to the quality of remains that perhaps were submerged & weighted down with a heavy object vs. wrapped in a blanket (or tarp) within a storage bin with a lid?

I'm curious as to the rate of decomposition 6 months later...would tissue still exist?

Pardon my lack of knowledge about the waters surrounding Sauvie Island...but, are they fresh or salt water?

 

[sarx]

Keep in mind that "skeletonized" means to most of us, completely devoid of tissue, nothing but bones. In cases like Laci and many others, the body can be badly decomposed, little can be left and it can be hard to see any features and yet that is still not skeletonized, so I think sometimes it needs clarification what people mean.

 

[sarx]

In terms of human decomposition in water, let's say Sauvie Island for example...what would one expect to discover in regards to the quality of remains that perhaps were submerged & weighted down with a heavy object vs. wrapped in a blanket (or tarp) within a storage bin with a lid?

I'm curious as to the rate of decomposition 6 months later...would tissue still exist?

Pardon my lack of knowledge about the waters surrounding Sauvie Island...but, are they fresh or salt water?

It's so hard to say, scavengers are going to play a major part and I don't know what they have in those waters, nor am I a scavenger expert, but the water is cold and that is going to preserve it longer. The rate of decomposition in water is 1/2 that of land, FWIW.

Editing to add-water effects also play a big part, calm water, currents, smooth bottom, rocky bottom, sudden rises in water, etc are all going to have effects on the rate of decomp.

It's all these things that make it soooo hard to give times

 

[Oriah]

Keep in mind that "skeletonized" means to most of us, completely devoid of tissue, nothing but bones. In cases like Laci and many others, the body can be badly decomposed, little can be left and it can be hard to see any features and yet that is still not skeletonized, so I think sometimes it needs clarification what people mean.

This is an extrordinarily important point.
There are many 'degrees' of skeletonization (especially when the media gets involved.) Typically, the ME report is the best basis for report. If you go from the ME report...it speaks volumes as to cause of death and time of death. That also involves fetuses/child(s) involved at ME's autopsy at TOD.
Perhaps an ME could weigh in here?

Oriah

 

[ThoughtFox]

Journalists were in the courtroom during the Peterson trial and saw the pictures of the remains during the autopsy testimony.

You can read more about the autopsy results (warning: the details are disturbing!)

http://www.findlaci2003.us/witness-peterson-brian-autopsy.html
http://www.findlaci2003.us/autopsy-globe-10-7-03.html
http://www.findlaci2003.us/witness-peterson-brian-autopsy2.html

 

[scandi]

Journalists were in the courtroom during the Peterson trial and saw the pictures of the remains during the autopsy testimony.

You can read more about the autopsy results (warning: the details are disturbing!)

http://www.findlaci2003.us/witness-peterson-brian-autopsy.html
http://www.findlaci2003.us/autopsy-globe-10-7-03.html
http://www.findlaci2003.us/witness-peterson-brian-autopsy2.html

Thanks ThoughtFox, Thank God that tonight and every night he lives he sits in a tiny cell on Death Row.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Slightly Off-Topic . . . but to clear up about Laci's Un-Christmas Present . . .

http://www.lacipeterson.com/whatshappening/page08.html

On Good Morning America: Sawyer asked Scott what he got Laci for Christmas.

"Oh, a Louis Vuitton wallet," he replied gleefully.
~~~~~~

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0311/13/lkl.00.html

CALLER: Hello. My question is for Ted Rowlands.

KING: Yes.

CALLER: It is -- has anyone asked the question what Scott got his loving wife, Laci, for Christmas?

KING: Ted?

(LAUGHTER)

ROWLANDS: Yes. That was asked of Scott and he said that he was -- he got her a bag, a wallet, a Louis Vitton wallet, and that was discussed actually in court during this prelim hearing, whether or not that present was under the tree with the presents that were under the tree Christmas Eve or not. That really hasn't come out. But he says he got her a wallet.
~~~~~~

http://robrien5.tripod.com/transcripts/id5.html

Detective Brochini Cross Examination: He talks about a LV wallet already in Laci's handbag when she disappeared (making the gift not that great).

14 Q. Okay. And so then -- so first time you're through
15 there, you get this information from the officers, and then
16 you don't do anything with it, or you don't touch the purse,
17 and then when you go through there with Scott Peterson,
18 that's when you take a closer look yourself and go inside
19 the purse; is that correct?
20 A. I didn't go in it, but, yeah, I did, I took it off
21 the hook. He told me there was a Louis Vuitton wallet in
22 there. And, I mean, I don't know what that is, but I wanted
23 to -- okay. So I looked, and there was a wallet in there.
24 I closed it, and I hung it back up. So I know there was a
25 wallet in there.


22 Q. You weren't interested in totally inventorying the
23 purse of this missing woman at that point?
24 A. No, the Louis Vuitton wallet was there, and that
25 was -- he told me about four or five times, "If the wallet's
26 there, she's not gone" -- I mean, "her stuff is there."
27 Q. Well, whoever Louis Vuitton is -- I share your
28 ignorance in Louis Vuitton, sir.

849
1 A. Thank you.
2 Q. So don't feel bad about that one.
3 A. Okay.

 

[Kimster]

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

:croc:OR:truce:?????????????????????????????????????

 

[ThoughtFox]

So sorry, Kimster! I'm done with Scott Peterson! :angel:

 

[tiredblondy]

LOL I love that picture!!

 

[scandi]

So sorry, Kimster! I'm done with Scott Peterson! :angel:

My Bad too ThoughtFox, It was such an emotional case for us all here ;}

Sorry Kimster

 

[scandi]

. . . . Snipped for Space

Pardon my lack of knowledge about the waters surrounding Sauvie Island...but, are they fresh or salt water?

I looked this up, learn new things every day.

http://www.northwestenvironmentaladvocates.org/programs/9A.htm

" . . . The Vital Columbia River Estuary

From the mouth of the Columbia River, tides move cold salt water upriver beneath the river's fresh water outflow. Where the two mix and mingle is called the estuary, roughly 38 miles of complex flow patterns supporting an intricate food web and varied fresh and salt water habitat for wildlife. The turbulent area in the river where the strong tidal forces interact with the fast-flowing fresh river waters creates a cloud of organic matter and resuspended sediment from the riverbed. This is called the Estuarine Turbidity Maximum (ETM,) and it supports populations of small organisms including zooplankton that form the base of the estuary food web . .".

So that implies the estuary is 38 miles upstream from the mouth of the Columbia where the salt and fresh water mix. It is 72 miles from Astoria {at the mouth} and Portland. That means there are 34 fresh water miles in the river coming up on SI or Portland. Hence it is fresh water surrounding SI.

 

[RoseTree]

That is super interesting; does salt vs fresh make a difference if there is a body in it?

 

[miabellamoure]

heeheehee...I always wondered where they went!

 

[weeds]

That is super interesting; does salt vs fresh make a difference if there is a body in it?

I believe a body would float to the surface in salt water.

 

[scandi]

I believe a body would float to the surface in salt water.

I believe that is true, but if Kyron were let go in the waters close to SI, I do not believe his body would make it down to the area where salt in the water would have any influence. Could his body travel approx 30 miles ??? to where the salt and fresh water mix would be? I doubt it sincerely. And if so, the water would be a mix, and not strong with salt. IMO.

 

[ThoughtFox]

It's difficult to find clear answers about decomposition in different types of water without checking out half the library, but I found this PDF file with lecture notes about the topic:

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/water.pdf

1. Immersion artefacts occur in any corpse immersed in water, irrespective of whether death was from drowning or the person was dead on entering the water. Therefore, immersion artefacts do not contribute to proof of death by drowning. However, such artefacts are typically the most
striking findings in a body recovered from water.

These immersion artefacts include:
1. goose-skin, or anserina cutis, which is roughening, or pimpling of the skin,
2. skin maceration, or washer-woman's skin, which is swelling and wrinkling of the skin, and
3. adipocere, which is the transformation of the fatty layer beneath the skin into a soap-like material - a process requiring many weeks or months.

2. Corpses in water always lie with the face down and with the head hanging. Buffeting in the water commonly produces post-mortem head injuries, which may be difficult to distinguish from injuries sustained during life. The presence of bleeding usually distinguishes ante-mortem from post-mortem injuries. However, the head down position of a floating corpse causes passive congestion of the head with blood, so that post- mortem injuries tend to bleed, creating the diagnostic confusion.

3. The normal changes of decomposition of a body are delayed in cold, deep water so that bodies may be surprisingly well preserved after a long period of immersion. These conditions also favour the formation of adipocere (see 1 above) which protects against decomposition.