Alleged alcohol abuse Revisit w/new 2010.11.12 Dateline info

[Donjeta]

He said it wasn't until recently, after conversations with friends and family and talking to people who know about alcoholism, that he said he realized she was an alcoholic.


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/kaine_horman_says_he_didnt_rea.html

So maybe he realized that she drank quite a bit, possibly too much but was in denial about her being an alcoholic until recently?

 

[Adrienne37]

And here is another quote from the same article by Kaine that clears up any further confusion on what he meant....

He said it wasn't until recently, after conversations with friends and family and talking to people who know about alcoholism, that he said he realized she was an alcoholic.

He said she exhibited odd behavior but he didn't know what it meant.

"I had no idea what the problem was," he said. "All of a sudden it comes right into focus."

He said "I think the alcoholism was the tip of the iceberg."


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/kaine_horman_says_he_didnt_rea.html

~JMO~

 

[gwenabob]

So maybe he realized that she drank quite a bit, possibly too much but was in denial about her being an alcoholic until recently?

And that is not unusual in the least. Enabler do just that--they enable by cleaning up after the alcoholic, making excuses, constant denial.

 

[Donjeta]

Yet that is what he seems to be saying...

I think Kaine might have fared better if he had not spoken out today, at least in my eyes.

It is very confusing how he could have realized she was an alcoholic months after being separated from her.

But if someone has a verbatim quote from him saying that Terri was drunk all the time or most of her time I would appreciate it since I don't remember hearing that.

 

[BeanE]

And here is another quote from the same article by Kaine that clears up any further confusion on what he meant....

He said it wasn't until recently, after conversations with friends and family and talking to people who know about alcoholism, that he said he realized she was an alcoholic.

He said she exhibited odd behavior but he didn't know what it meant.

"I had no idea what the problem was," he said. "All of a sudden it comes right into focus."

He said "I think the alcoholism was the tip of the iceberg."


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/kaine_horman_says_he_didnt_rea.html

~JMO~

I wish that cleared it up for me too, Adrienne. Unfortunately, it doesn't because he says he had "no idea" what her odd behavior was. To go from no idea for years, to, within a month, based on what other people tell you, rather than a diagnosis, and state definitively that a person engaged in alcohol abuse to the point of unconsciousness several nights a week, just doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe it's because of a lack of experience with alcoholics that it doesn't come together for me. I only have one sister who was an alcoholic, and it was very obvious, even when she wasn't drinking right in front of you, that she was drunk. She'd pass out, had car accidents, even passed out at work a few times.

I just don't know. I don't know who or what to believe any more in this case. I really don't. It's all just very sad.

 

[cluciano63]

For me, Kaine has said too much, because it can't all be true.

 

[PortlandMama]

I drink at night sometimes. Probably more than I should. At times of VERY HIGH stress I don't touch a drop. Mid-level stress may drive me to have a couple, but not extreme stress. I think there is too much going on in my body during extreme stress for me to add alcohol to it. I'm really not sure why, but just throwing my own perspective out there.

I have no desire for alcohol when I'm extremely stressed either; it would make me ill. So I agree with what you say here! But then, I'm not an alcoholic. And I've seen alcoholics and addicts in their absolute worst, (should be) most stressful situations, and they use. So maybe these are two different systems in operation (nonalcoholic stress reaction and alcoholic stress reaction) and one is not predictive of the other. :twocents:

 

[Donjeta]

I think there are historical examples of alcoholics who committed crimes such as homicide and yet despite their addiction managed not to be obviously intoxicated when the police came.

 

[debs]

I think there are historical examples of alcoholics who committed crimes such as homicide and yet despite their addiction managed not to be obviously intoxicated when the police came.

I'm just confused, because in his motion to the court, he talks of her slurring, stumbling, and passing out. There aren't many ways to interpret that but that the person is drunk.

Then he states he didn't know what he was seeing.

 

[eyes4crime]

I'm just confused, because in his motion to the court, he talks of her slurring, stumbling, and passing out. There aren't many ways to interpret that but that the person is drunk.

Then he states he didn't know what he was seeing.

I also find it confusing Debs...maybe he didn't know if it was alcohol, drugs, or both. moo

ETA: Maybe Kaine thought PPD had similar symptoms. I find it hard to believe that Kaine was not aware alcoholic behavior or how it presents. moo mho

 

[Jo in Calif]

For me, Kaine has said too much, because it can't all be true.

Hang on, I'm sure there's more to come, then you'll really think it can't be all true.

 

[Donjeta]

I'm just confused, because in his motion to the court, he talks of her slurring, stumbling, and passing out. There aren't many ways to interpret that but that the person is drunk.

Then he states he didn't know what he was seeing.

Some prescribed medications and illegal drugs do that. I had a lot of side effects like this when starting antiepileptic medication. There was some talk earlier that she may have had something prescribed to her and he might not have been sure how they affect her.

It's hard to say what his friends could have told him to let him suddenly become so certain it was drinking instead.

Is there any chance that she told someone she was drinking? Because that would clear it up the best.

 

[TxLady2]

I wish that cleared it up for me too, Adrienne. Unfortunately, it doesn't because he says he had "no idea" what her odd behavior was. To go from no idea for years, to, within a month, based on what other people tell you, rather than a diagnosis, and state definitively that a person engaged in alcohol abuse to the point of unconsciousness several nights a week, just doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe it's because of a lack of experience with alcoholics that it doesn't come together for me. I only have one sister who was an alcoholic, and it was very obvious, even when she wasn't drinking right in front of you, that she was drunk. She'd pass out, had car accidents, even passed out at work a few times.

I just don't know. I don't know who or what to believe any more in this case. I really don't. It's all just very sad.

I lived with an alcoholic for a few years. It's possible to be in denial for a while that they are really an alcoholic, but it does hit you sooner or later.

I just don't see how he could not have realized, if all the things he said in the affadavit were true, because he paints it as Terri getting drunk every night, passing out on the couch, leaving the baby to roam around or watch t.v.
That would be pretty clear signs to me!

 

[PortlandMama]

I also find it confusing Debs...maybe he didn't know if it was alcohol, drugs, or both. moo

ETA: Maybe Kaine thought PPD had similar symptoms. I find it hard to believe that Kaine was not aware alcoholic behavior or how it presents. moo mho

Perhaps there were other symptoms as well, at other times, that were not as obvious as slurring and passing out. Behavioral changes, for example? Increasing aggressiveness, hostility, etc. Usually there is other behavior in an alcoholic/addict that serves to protect the user's relationship with their drug. Secretiveness, treating others who might disrupt the relationship with the drug as an enemy, etc. If those behaviors aren't coincident with slurring, etc., they might seem to come out of nowhere.

ETA: But if it's true what he said that she was slurring her speech and passing out from drink on the couch several nights a week, how could he not have known that was a problem with alcohol? I agree that seems a stretch. (If someone I cared about passed out one time from drinking--and at her age, no less--I would be alarmed.) I'm just trying to think of other things he might not have understood at the time, but now seem to be falling into place for him.

 

[BeanE]

Kaine said very specifically in the affidavit that Terri drank to unconsciousness.

This morning he said she exhibited 'odd behavior' but had 'no idea' what it was.

I just can't get those two things to mesh.

 

[Emma Peel]

It's good that we heard from both Kaine & Desiree on the same day.

Desiree seems to think Kaine knew stuff that he could have told her...
Kaine feels like he knew nothing, therefore withheld nothing ...and still is piecing it together.

Maybe in addition to the alcohol - what appears to be alleged alcohol abuse - there is just this long history of Kyron's parents being deceived and manipulated by Terri - and so as a result, they were many times in the dark, and remain enormously confused.

Perhaps, the more they contradict each other (Kaine & Desiree), the closer they'll get to figuring out what the heck went wrong.

Along these lines, I just had a thought.

If Terri, in her role as step-mom, and further role as the MODAM, (master of deception and manipulation), was at the center of arrangements and communications regarding Kyron - acting as-messenger-go-between - between Kyron and Desiree - even between Kaine and Desiree, then Kaine and Desiree might have no idea what the other one actually said, and/or intended much of the time. Perhaps, Terri, playing step-mom and manipulating messenger go-between - may have controlled quite a bit of the information.

I wonder if Kaine & Desiree spent time comparing notes very often? Or is it just recently, upon Kyron's wish to spend more time with Desiree that these parents were (although still independently), trying to figure out why Kyron was ... a bit unhappy.

ugh. my head hurts. but heart aches for these two parents.

 

[Shadowboy]

I was struck by something Kaine said this morning:
"... it’s not the person that everybody thought it was. It’s a completely different person, leading a completely separate life ... I think, personally, the alcoholism is the tip of the iceberg. That’s the start, not the finish. And that’s what I’m concerned about."
http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/loca...had-an-accomplice/UqWuD4ezC0e1_mFyo7wuaA.cspx


Am I reading too much into this? What does he mean by a "completely separate life" where "alcoholism is the tip of the iceberg"? Anyone care to offer opinions on that?

 

[Donjeta]

I suppose that you can rationalize passing out as "exhausted and extremely sleepy" if the person tends to be unconscious mostly at nighttime when you're sleepy yourself. Up to a point, anyway. Not so much if they drink themselves to oblivion during the day.

 

[eyes4crime]

I was struck by something Kaine said this morning:
"... it’s not the person that everybody thought it was. It’s a completely different person, leading a completely separate life ... I think, personally, the alcoholism is the tip of the iceberg. That’s the start, not the finish. And that’s what I’m concerned about."
http://www.koinlocal6.com/news/loca...had-an-accomplice/UqWuD4ezC0e1_mFyo7wuaA.cspx


Am I reading too much into this? What does he mean by a "completely separate life" where "alcoholism is the tip of the iceberg"? Anyone care to offer opinions on that?

Very good question! Sounds to me like he's saying that Terri has some kind of secret life and once we find out about it, the drinking part will be 'no big deal'. moo mho

 

[TxLady2]

I'm just confused, because in his motion to the court, he talks of her slurring, stumbling, and passing out. There aren't many ways to interpret that but that the person is drunk.

Then he states he didn't know what he was seeing.

Right. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize drunk, no matter if it's alcohol or drugs or both.

Did he never notice empty liquor bottles? Or a stash of liquor anywhere in the house? I know some drunks are really good at hiding their liquor, and getting rid of the empty bottles, but.... I just don't see how he could be this clueless.