Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[Holdontoyourhat]

Not for sure, but the circumstantial evidence is compelling.



Not according to the agents. it wasn't. You talk about making stuff up; that's as good an example as I can think of.



Not if they didn't KNOW what "routine kidnap for ransom jargon" is! Which is what we've been saying.



And our writer was supposed to know that? Like I keep saying, the writer wasn't thinking like a ransom kidnapper.

Please feel free to correct me if I state something as fact that isn't fact. You'll note I said 'most likely', or 'IMO'. If you want, you can keep claiming the RN was written after JBR was killed, but I know you have no rational basis for doing so...

BTW, what 'type' of person do you think uses the expression 'behead' and 'execute' anyway? From what type of person would those expressions 'normally' originate?

 

[Ames]

The RN written before or after JBR was murdered isn't a known case fact.

Because your posts repeatedly refer and draw conclusions from the POV that the RN came last, when that isn't a known fact, makes your arguments seem invalid, OK?

Yeah, whatever. If a REAL kidnapper had of entered the Ramsey home, and wrote a three page RN BEFORE the Rams got home, and THEN JB was killed...WHY the h*ll did they bother to spread the RANSOM note across the stairs? What was the point?

 

[BBB167893]

Please feel free to correct me if I state something as fact that isn't fact.

You can count on that!

You'll note I said 'most likely', or 'IMO'.

I'm trying to do the same. (It's been a hectic week, HOTYH.)

If you want, you can keep claiming the RN was written after JBR was killed,

Darn tootin'!

but I know you have no rational basis for doing so...

Oh, haven't I? ST, pb, page 242:
based on their studies of the evidence, [CASKU] believed that the note was written in the home, after the murder, and indicated panic.

Because your posts repeatedly refer and draw conclusions from the POV that the RN came last, when that isn't a known fact, makes your arguments seem invalid, OK?

No, HOTYH, it ain't okay! By that logic, you, me and everyone else here might as well shut down the forum, pack up and go on home!

BTW, what 'type' of person do you think uses the expression 'behead' and 'execute' anyway?

You really don't want me to answer that one.

From what type of person would those expressions 'normally' originate?

Key word: "normally." I think we can all agree there was nothing normal going on that night.

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah, whatever. If a REAL kidnapper had of entered the Ramsey home, and wrote a three page RN BEFORE the Rams got home, and THEN JB was killed...WHY the h*ll did they bother to spread the RANSOM note across the stairs? What was the point?

That's exactly the question CASKU asked!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Oh, haven't I? ST, pb, page 242:
based on their studies of the evidence, [CASKU] believed that the note was written in the home, after the murder, and indicated panic.

Thats a laugh, even if true. I could no sooner write my name then a 2 1/2 page ransom note AFTER a child murder. The RN is organized in thought, and the handwriting is completely legible throughout. A clearly written, paragraphed 2 1/2 page RN that indicated panic?!? Thats just a riot.

No, HOTYH, it ain't okay! By that logic, you, me and everyone else here might as well shut down the forum, pack up and go on home! .

JBR wouldn't notice.

You really don't want me to answer that one.

Yes I do.

Key word: "normally." I think we can all agree there was nothing normal going on that night.

You're the one drawing on movies and books and claiming executing and beheading is a popular, modern vernacular. Who is it a popular, modern vernacular of? (I can't make this any clearer)

 

[BBB167893]

Thats a laugh, even if true.

Let's see: I have a team of people whose job it is to know the minds of criminals on one side, and you on the other. Boy, that's a tough decision...

I could no sooner write my name then a 2 1/2 page ransom note AFTER a child murder.

Like I said before, HOTYH, we're not talking about what YOU would do. (Not that I know of.)
But more honestly, I've heard that before, and I don't buy it. Number one, the person very likely wasn't alone and had someone helping them, to my way of thinking. Two, there's the little matter of tranquilizers. They don't call them "mother's little helpers" for nothing. Plenty of time, too.

The RN is organized in thought,

You must be reading a different note than the rest of us! (Which would explain a lot.) It's ALL OVER THE PLACE, very likely dreamed up in the mind of someone throwing in anything they could think of.

and the handwriting is completely legible throughout.

What's your point?

A clearly written, paragraphed 2 1/2 page RN that indicated panic?!?

That's what they said. Take it up with them, if you don't like it. Don't shoot the messenger.
And they weren't just pulling it out of their nether regions. They were doing exactly what I keep telling YOU to do. (For all the good it does me.)

Thats just a riot.

You'll notice I'm not laughing.

JBR wouldn't notice.

That's low.

Yes I do.

Remember, you asked for it. Well, "execute" is a common word in computer jargon, is it not? And JR just happened to work with computers...

You're the one drawing on movies and books and claiming executing and beheading is a popular, modern vernacular.

I find that appropriate, since that's very likely what the writer was drawing on for "inspiration."

Who is it a popular, modern vernacular of? (I can't make this any clearer)

Then let ME be clear: artistic types. Screenwriters, comic-book artists like Frank Miller, that "type" of people. And who does THAT sound like?

Incidentally, just what difference does it make? It wasn't a real note anyway.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Then let ME be clear: artistic types. Screenwriters, comic-book artists like Frank Miller, that "type" of people. And who does THAT sound like?

Incidentally, just what difference does it make? It wasn't a real note anyway.

Real words on real paper. What's not 'real' about the note, its content? You, SD, don't know what was real or not real because you don't know when or in what context it was written. Foreign faction, extortion, not respecting the US, killing other fat cats, could all be real as far as you know.

Meanwhile, as to the original question, that I will clarify even further: To what type of person do the expressions 'immediately execute' and 'will be beheaded' belong?

Is an 'artistic type' of person the first thing that comes to your mind? You're kidding, right? Because thats what I'm getting from your post.

 

[Ames]

Real words on real paper. What's not 'real' about the note, its content? You, SD, don't know what was real or not real because you don't know when or in what context it was written. Foreign faction, extortion, not respecting the US, killing other fat cats, could all be real as far as you know.

Meanwhile, as to the original question, that I will clarify even further: To what type of person do the expressions 'immediately execute' and 'will be beheaded' belong?

Is an 'artistic type' of person the first thing that comes to your mind? You're kidding, right? Because thats what I'm getting from your post.

IMO..it would be more of a creative type person...for example...Patsy R. She was the actress in the family.

 

[Sophie]

IMO..it would be more of a creative type person...for example...Patsy R. She was the actress in the family.

Ames, I agree. When I first read the note, it reminded me of nothing so much as a spoof ransom note someone wrote when 'kidnapping' my dorm's goldfish at university. In fact, the similarity in tenor between a note relating to a joke and a note relating to a genuine, horrible, tragic, appalling murder sent a chill up my spine. One was written by an amateur 'comedian' who watched way too much telly, the other by an amateur criminal. Just the sort of note someone with some writing skills and a sense of drama would write.

 

[Sophie]

Real words on real paper. What's not 'real' about the note, its content? You, SD, don't know what was real or not real because you don't know when or in what context it was written. Foreign faction, extortion, not respecting the US, killing other fat cats, could all be real as far as you know.

Meanwhile, as to the original question, that I will clarify even further: To what type of person do the expressions 'immediately execute' and 'will be beheaded' belong?

Is an 'artistic type' of person the first thing that comes to your mind? You're kidding, right? Because thats what I'm getting from your post.

Of all this, HOTYH, anyone describing themselves as 'foreign' is where I think the note falls apart. I mean, you would regard me as a foreigner, but sitting in a living room in Northern England, I don't regard myself as a foreigner...In fact, I lived for two years in France and described myself as 'anglaise' but never 'etrangere.' A very dear friend of mine from Baltimore is visiting me at the moment and I don't think she has ever described herself as foreign. From the US, yes. A foreigner, no. People don't view themselves as being foreign. They view themselves as being in a foreign country. The foreign bit, to me at least, was one of the sillier mistakes made by the writer of the ransom note.

 

[BBB167893]

Real words on real paper. What's not 'real' about the note, its content?

You just nailed it.

You, SD, don't know what was real or not real because you don't know when or in what context it was written.

That very well may be. But I have reasons for believing what I believe.

Foreign faction, extortion, not respecting the US, killing other fat cats, could all be real as far as you know.

Could be. But in my opinion, it's not likely for a couple of reasons.

Meanwhile, as to the original question, that I will clarify even further: To what type of person do the expressions 'immediately execute' and 'will be beheaded' belong?

I told you already. I can't make it more clear than I have. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. Maybe it would be, if you'd take the time to walk in my boots for a while.

Is an 'artistic type' of person the first thing that comes to your mind?

You got it. (Not the ONLY thing, but the first thing.) The word beheading conjures up a lot of hideous images for most people, not to mention strong reactions. That's what I believe the writer was going for.

You're kidding, right? Because thats what I'm getting from your post.

I NEVER kid about this case, HOTYH. NEVER. I would have thought you knew that by now.

 

[BBB167893]

Ames, I agree. When I first read the note, it reminded me of nothing so much as a spoof ransom note someone wrote when 'kidnapping' my dorm's goldfish at university. In fact, the similarity in tenor between a note relating to a joke and a note relating to a genuine, horrible, tragic, appalling murder sent a chill up my spine. One was written by an amateur 'comedian' who watched way too much telly, the other by an amateur criminal. Just the sort of note someone with some writing skills and a sense of drama would write.

Ames, Sophie: that's where I was going to end up.

Tell me, Sophie, would you like to know who else thinks that? The former chief prosecutor for the DA's office. He said, and I quote:

"the staging was overdone. It was a very theatrical production and Patsy is a very theatrical person. She loves being known as the mother of a dead beauty queen."

Not only him. CASKU deemed the entire crime unsophisticated.

Of all this, HOTYH, anyone describing themselves as 'foreign' is where I think the note falls apart. I mean, you would regard me as a foreigner, but sitting in a living room in Northern England, I don't regard myself as a foreigner...In fact, I lived for two years in France and described myself as 'anglaise' but never 'etrangere.' A very dear friend of mine from Baltimore is visiting me at the moment and I don't think she has ever described herself as foreign. From the US, yes. A foreigner, no. People don't view themselves as being foreign. They view themselves as being in a foreign country. The foreign bit, to me at least, was one of the sillier mistakes made by the writer of the ransom note.

Sophie, that's just what the profilers said! "Foreign to whom?" To them, WE are the foreigners.

 

[Tadpole12]

Hey Hotyh.

I have pondered about your many thoughts and points .... over the last day ....

The reason I had originally asked you about your thoughts on what a hybrid IDI would be doing today, 12 years post crime(He could be mowing the lawn), well I was just wondering if you had considered events that way? He's rather an accumulation of exceptions so I'm intruiged.

There's so many elements within the unknown IDI scenarios, one could pick and choose, profiles varry from a social outcast ...... to, at the time of the crime, a profile of a perp 25 to 35 years of age, associate of criminal elements .... so I was just wondering ......


chain of events ..... I guess they're not always linear or altleast not predictable, like the plot asscociations in a Guy Ritchie movie.

and so maybe, in your minds eye the staging can in fact be staging but rather not to divert but to shock, perhaps, like a greusome panorama?

gee .... add the discussed reference to comic books, and a dark imagination .... one could go to ..... the absurd.

re:Movies.
iirc Into The Night http://www.fast-rewind.com/intothenight.htm
mad cap mobster terrorists types, I'm unsure if there were threats of beheading. Funny movie.... but it wasn't very pc at the time.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/16/ukcrime.forensicscience1

There were a unique set of circumstances in Omagh, and the judge's comments were really about the collection and preservation of the evidence."

LCN allows forensic scientists to link DNA to a person even if the most minute amounts are present. Because such small amounts can be detected, though, it vastly increases the potential for contamination. "The main problem is that if you don't have a visible body stain, you really don't know how it got there or when it got there," says Jamieson. It is this that led Mr Justice Weir to dismiss the evidence......


........The judge was scathing about the careless way in which physical evidence was handled by the police and hence the numerous opportunities for contamination. "It is not my function to criticise the seemingly thoughtless and slapdash approach of police and [scene of crime] officers to the collection, storage and transmission of what must obviously have been potential exhibits in a possible future criminal trial, but it is difficult to avoid some expression of surprise that . . . such items were so widely and routinely handled with cavalier disregard for their integrity," he said. Worse, even if evidence is handled carefully, the extreme sensitivity of LCN increases the possibility of false forensic inferences. Previous studies have shown that by shaking hands with someone your DNA can be transferred by them on to other objects (such as a murder weapon) when they touch them, even if your contact with them was half an hour ago. Once your DNA has been transferred by them it can remain on the object for days, or in one case (a glove that was analysed as part of a case), for two years. "That's kind of scary when we are working back from the evidence," says Jamieson......

 

[Tadpole12]

I had read this interesting judicial article, a critique on how touch dna should never be used on its own to convict, that in effect, without other evidence, it is inconclusive.

So ..... I'm still wondering what additional evidence there would be to allow ML to draw the conclusion that JR and his family can be exhonerated.

The inside fabric of JBR's long john bottoms must have been tested to exclude the source of dna as being a previous wearer of the clothing.

Maybe just the location ( 3 location) of dna services that conclusion?

And how can PR be wholely eliminated as a participant?

 

[Tadpole12]

Not only that, but she actually started TYPING notes and other written material that was sent to Burke's school, for example, notes to his teacher.

Hi Ames.

Wow.

I've been reading the material within CW's suit, and had read that PR had destroyed her handwritten notes, the basis for the R's book. Typed notes to the teacher .... hmmm.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You got it. (Not the ONLY thing, but the first thing.) The word beheading conjures up a lot of hideous images for most people, not to mention strong reactions. That's what I believe the writer was going for.

OK, when someone says "he will be beheaded," or "he will be immediately executed," you believe that person is an artist, right? That IS what you posted.

C'mon SD, lets get real just for a second. I mean, just for a second. Remember that show 'Whats my line'? Or maybe you're too young. In the context of that show, the contestant says 'he will be beheaded' or 'he will be immediately executed" your guess would be artist, is that right?

 

[DeeDee249]

OK, when someone says "he will be beheaded," or "he will be immediately executed," you believe that person is an artist, right? That IS what you posted.

C'mon SD, lets get real just for a second. I mean, just for a second. Remember that show 'Whats my line'? Or maybe you're too young. In the context of that show, the contestant says 'he will be beheaded' or 'he will be immediately executed" your guess would be artist, is that right?

Not artist. Actor. Actress, in this case. Someone pretending to be a foreign kidnapper/terrorist. (who BTW would not use the term "fat cat".) PR was trying to play it both ways here. She wanted to sound like a SFF/terrorist, but she also wanted to sound like a disgruntled employee, especially a female southern SFF or employee.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I had read this interesting judicial article, a critique on how touch dna should never be used on its own to convict, that in effect, without other evidence, it is inconclusive.

So ..... I'm still wondering what additional evidence there would be to allow ML to draw the conclusion that JR and his family can be exhonerated.

The inside fabric of JBR's long john bottoms must have been tested to exclude the source of dna as being a previous wearer of the clothing.

Maybe just the location ( 3 location) of dna services that conclusion?

And how can PR be wholely eliminated as a participant?

The deposits with matching DNA are on each side of the waistband of the longjohns, and mixed with blood in her underwear. Thats probably why ML characterized it as highly unlikely the DNA was deposited in these places innocently. There are several news reports to this effect, and the new DA's office hasn't really discounted the DNA findings.

Its really a show-stopper for RDI because the foreign male DNA can't be attributed to a factory worker like it was before, because it was found on more than one article of clothing JBR was wearing at the time she was murdered AND it was found in criminally conspicuous places.

 

[Sophie]

Ames, Sophie: that's where I was going to end up.

Tell me, Sophie, would you like to know who else thinks that? The former chief prosecutor for the DA's office. He said, and I quote:

"the staging was overdone. It was a very theatrical production and Patsy is a very theatrical person. She loves being known as the mother of a dead beauty queen."

Not only him. CASKU deemed the entire crime unsophisticated.



Sophie, that's just what the profilers said! "Foreign to whom?" To them, WE are the foreigners.

Brilliant post, SuperDave, thanks. One other thing that tends to eliminate a political faction is the fact that no one claimed 'credit' for the crime afterwards, which terrorist or political organisations almost always do. It was mere hours after 9/11 and the London Tube Bombings that Al-Quaeda claimed credit. Just last week, at least two splinter republican groups claimed credit for the death of soldiers on an IRA base. I'll accept this as statistical rather than evidential but, in all honesty, how many foreign factions with a gripe against the US are also that anxious to remain anonymous?