Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

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  • #121
So a narcissist probably wouldn't realize they're coming off so poorly, is that right?

If Jodi is a borderline or a psychotic, would she have a sense of reality by now that it's not going really well for her? What might she be thinking now? Do you think she's really listening to whatever feedback her atty's might be giving her?

TIA!
 
  • #122
Sorry, I meant psychopath instead of psychotic in the above post. ^^^
 
  • #123
This is my take on Jodi(sociopath) and Travis (the victim) and how it played out...

A female sociopath is described as:

"She is meticulously turned out, expertly masking her inner personality cracks with flawless make-up, perfect hair and an extensive wardrobe, often paid for by past boyfriends. She may have learned to cover up who she really is by appearing confident and self-assured. Yet underneath this confident and highly manicured exterior may lie an insecure, inadequate and ultra-needy woman.

**note: past boyfriends pay for her boob job, I'm sure other things as well.

"These women want to create the illusion of intimacy quickly and are prepared to take short-cuts. They are full-on and their friendliness positively gushes. They often smile too much, but with their teeth, not their eyes. The woman will say all the right things and appear keen to be seen to make plans with you, but it’s a ploy to gain your affection quickly and hook you in.

** when she met him at conference than leaving boyfriend within a week to be with him.

"She also appears so wonderful, sweet and demure, as if butter wouldn’t melt in her mouth. Of course, she is a chameleon, capable of becoming exactly who her victim needs her to be.

** This is how she manipulated him in the beginning appearing to be something she is not i.e. by becoming a Mormon.

"She believes she is entitled to everything she desires. With an overdeveloped sense of self, working for what she wants is an inconvenience. Hard work is for everybody else. She wants the fast buck and the short-cut to success. Becoming a social parasite is quicker than toiling for anything. And when she pulls it off, she can then congratulate herself on cheating, conning or defrauding others who may be more intelligent or successful than she is.

** Travis was successful, except he didn't continue with her plan.

"She will seem very loving and capable of intimacy and will pretend to care. However the intimacy, depth and commitment are illusions. They merely enable her to collect what she wants. Her true colors show only when all other tactics fail.

** She became a Mormon, pretended to care about him And act like a Mormon girl would. When that didn't succeed to fully land him, Her tactic than became to use sex to land him and than unfortunately later to be used against him.

"Creating self-doubt in her victims’ minds is an integral part of her approach. She plays on their reasonableness to give her the benefit of any doubts they may have. She knows that reasonable people don’t like to think badly of others and will often beat themselves up for thinking uncharitable thoughts. She always sounds so convincing. Her approach is intended to make you question whether you were correct in your thoughts about her. It slows you down. It’s meant to.

** Playing on his goodness, knowing he is a good person

"This is a key point. She is probably brilliant at eliciting pity and knows precisely how to do it.

** This is how she stayed in his life even after breaking up with him and moving away. In her mind she thinks I gave him so many chances to comply.

"This woman doesn’t think twice about destroying the reputations, health and well-being or the livelihood of others if they represent obstacles to getting what she wants. She’s the sort who will force you to get down on bended knee to beg forgiveness and then take delight in saying 'No'. She makes you feel bad to ‘keep you on your toes’.

** At this point Travis was on to her as he said in the sociopath message to her! Another haunting fact here is that in her ninja story she talks about him getting on his knees or on all fours... No telling how long she tortured is soul on that day! God love him.

"Such women will not be happy until they have ripped the very heart and soul out of their victim. Even then, there is no guarantee they will be any happier. Sadly, most men ignore what their gut instinct is trying to tell them about her, because they think she wants them."

** This is truly sad he had the gut instinct but he ignored it based on his inability to believe people could do such things. Also, he was a 30 yr old hormone male that fell for her sexual trap..IMO! By the time he realized what was going on the plan was already in place - the premeditation and let's not forget her next victim/alias Ryan Burns.

"She holds grudges too. Her revenge and retribution can be savage and harsh. Surprise is her weapon. Expect the worst, then double it.

** This is why his murder was so brutal... IMO there is no telling how long she tortured him!

** in conclusion, this is the behavior we are seeing after the murder and in trial!

"The consequences of her behavior are always somebody else’s problem, not hers. She is never to blame for anything...Because she’s out to control, she manipulates and punishes at will. She is the witness, the judge, the lawyer, the jury, the executioner - but never the accused... She will break the rules without a second thought, if the end justifies the means.".

Travis never had a chance after she set her sights on him. IMO nothing happened to the other boyfriends because they did not offer her the reputation, the successful life and money that Travis had, she wanted that life!

God rest his soul! My heart breaks for him and his family!
 
  • #124
My understanding of other pd's is somewhat remedial...From what I've seen, I think..

1. Her overall objective is to frustrate the prosecutor to the EXTREME, where it looks like he's losing it, overly mean, and confused with the facts. If this happened, I don't think there would be any change to her demeanor. She would continue to appear innocent and stupid.
2. She truly believes, at least some of, how she sees herself.

So a narcissist probably wouldn't realize they're coming off so poorly, is that right?

I'm not sure how a narc would see themselves, but I don't think she realizes how she is truly being perceived by others.

If Jodi is a borderline or a psychotic, would she have a sense of reality by now that it's not going really well for her?

1. If she were borderline I don't believe she'd be on the stand to begin with.
2. If her story remained consistent then I'd be more inclined to think she may actually believed what she was saying. The fact her story changes makes me think that she's completely aware, but doesn't get how she is actually being perceived by others.
3. Her mood appeared to me to be stable and consistent. If she were borderline I'd expect some sort of extreme either anger or distraught. I don't think a borderline could keep it together as well as she is.
4. She appears to have no remorse which is more ASPD.
5. I believe the prosecution is claiming this was premeditated which would be more consistent with ASPD. If she was borderline I would suspect a more impulsive, in the moment rage

What might she be thinking now?

only a guess but probably that she'll be understood and perceived justified or innocent.


Do you think she's really listening to whatever feedback her atty's might be giving her?

TIA!

No. I think she likes the spotlight on her, and that she'll be understood and perceived to be justified.
 
  • #125
eta: cross posted with richochet.


So a narcissist probably wouldn't realize they're coming off so poorly, is that right?

If Jodi is a borderline or a psychotic, would she have a sense of reality by now that it's not going really well for her? What might she be thinking now? Do you think she's really listening to whatever feedback her atty's might be giving her?

TIA!

Very good observation, imho! Narcissists can be ridiculously oblivious to how they actually come across to others. A loveable narcissist, for instance, is Sam Malone on Cheers :D Everyone just agrees he's the best looking man on the planet, right? ;)

A psychopath is more about figuring out exactly how they come across to each person, so they'd want to tone down any shows of narcissism if they thought it worked against them in any way.

Listening to someone else when they disagree would be extremely difficult because of the inherent narcissism, but psychopaths are very interested in getting a feel for what other people are seeing. It's their bread and butter.

She's not the best psychopath because her ego and lack of extraordinary acting skills get in the way. But I think she's trying to change according to what the public vibe is, absolutely. She may be too angry to pull it off. That depends on how talented a psychopath she is. There are levels of scary in that regard!
 
  • #126
Thank you to Ricochet and Tiger for sharing and trying to explain what many of us are trying to understand! So helpful. And so many of you have such good info.

I've just been fascinated by watching Jodi - not knowing what allowed her to do what she has done, and how she's handling herself through this trial. I've interviewed many suspects in my past, and I have never experienced one like her. She was a topic of discussion in our office the other day, as several of us were really watching her demeanor on the stand. Not one of us watching said we've ever had a defendant like her.

Thanks again :seeya:

Did you or anybody happen to catch the Dateline episode that aired last night? I realized I had missed a lot of little facts by joining the trial late.

It was fascinating watching her respond to the detective's questions the day she was arrested but still in street clothes and then the next day too. The Dateline host stated 'she had been given a change of clothes' and then the camera shows her in the interrogation room wearing an orange jumpsuit - that made me chuckle. You could tell that overnight she had been thinking about what her answers would be the next day and she had come up with explanations for the points that had stumped her the day before.

I wish I had taken notes - her responses were transparent yet she could deliver them with an air of believability - she should have concentrated her energies on becoming an actress.

Oh and the detective's responses were great too - he was so smooth and calm but he stated clearly 'I don't believe you'. She replied, 'no?" and then you could almost see the wheels turning in her head to try to come up with something better.
 
  • #127
I don't know how to label her but I understand the points that a borderline would have difficulty maintaining control of their temper and not be able to stay so even keel on the stand. I would have trouble maintaining composure too - just saying.

The fact that she had never been in trouble before leaves me sort of confuzzled.

Another fact that she was still hanging on to him a year after they had broken up, June 2007 right?, to June 2008, plays into what happened.
I now understand why the stalker term has been used even though TA hadn't really responded as someone who was truly being stalked.
Stalking victims are usually feeling terrorized to the point of feeling tortured for months prior to the stalking coming to an end. This is why it was so detrimental for TA to keep letting her back in to his life. He toyed with her emotions and left an opening for her to believe she had a chance of changing his mind.

Something is definitely missing within her but what sticks out to me the most is that she seems to have been so revengeful due to his rejection of her and the names he allegedly called her (turned on her for the thing he used to tell her he liked about her). That coupled with the idea that he was somehow better than she is and so were the other girl/s he was taking on trips :waitasec: (they had bought a book 1,000 Places to See Before You Die together. The fact that he felt she was not good enough for him and that he and other girls were better/above her sent her over the edge. She seems to have taken those slights/rejections to heart and, if she couldn't have him back, she was going to make him pay which she did do.

She could not let go and sought her own form of justice.

It's like a case where someone has messed with the wrong guy.
 
  • #128
When someone has been caught in SOOOO many lies and is claiming a convenient 'fog' when it suits her defense, could prosecution order her to undergo Forensic Hypnosis?

I am so new to trials and legality of certain procedures so forgive me if this seems like an uneducated question.

It just seems like a practical solution.
 
  • #129
eta: cross posted with richochet.




Very good observation, imho! Narcissists can be ridiculously oblivious to how they actually come across to others. A loveable narcissist, for instance, is Sam Malone on Cheers :D Everyone just agrees he's the best looking man on the planet, right? ;)

A psychopath is more about figuring out exactly how they come across to each person, so they'd want to tone down any shows of narcissism if they thought it worked against them in any way.

Listening to someone else when they disagree would be extremely difficult because of the inherent narcissism, but psychopaths are very interested in getting a feel for what other people are seeing. It's their bread and butter.

She's not the best psychopath because her ego and lack of extraordinary acting skills get in the way. But I think she's trying to change according to what the public vibe is, absolutely. She may be too angry to pull it off. That depends on how talented a psychopath she is. There are levels of scary in that regard!

lol ~ I just wrote that she could have been an actress!
I'm still mixed up about psychopaths - I have to study that more as all the various traits get mixed up in my head.

We all have probably felt jealously, rejection and know what it feels like to be lied to over an important matter but I guess it takes a psychopath to so violently kill somebody over these matters - especially when you're not even married to the person!

I've posted before about being deeply hurt while engaged by a man's ongoing deceit that I discovered in time. I'll admit my ego took a hit but, more importantly, he shook my belief system to it's core. Luckily I had the strength to boot his sorry arse then (he had already had a second chance about three months in to the relationship - had I only known then what I know now but I was young). Still, I never once contemplated killing him. When I think back, that's how bad I felt but a thought like that never crossed my mind. Still, over the years, I heard a few bad things happened to him and I felt glad - even though that's against my normal belief system or way of looking at things - I was that devastated by the mark he left on my life and felt scarred for years. Now I think back and say wth? Anyway, he was at fault and went on to cheat on several more women, etc. I don't even try to forgive him because he doesn't deserve it and if he wants forgiveness he can ask God for it himself. There must be something I like about holding on to a little bit of anger - it keeps me on my toes!

My point is, when someone sets out to kill somebody else over rejection issues, something is deeply wrong with them.
 
  • #130
When someone has been caught in SOOOO many lies and is claiming a convenient 'fog' when it suits her defense, could prosecution order her to undergo Forensic Hypnosis?

I am so new to trials and legality of certain procedures so forgive me if this seems like an uneducated question.

It just seems like a practical solution.

Electric shock therapy maybe? Her fog is an excuse but I believe she may have shocked even herself after realizing how brutally she stabbed him. She prefers not to recall that part.
 
  • #131
Electric shock therapy maybe? Her fog is an excuse but I believe she may have shocked even herself after realizing how brutally she stabbed him. She prefers not to recall that part.

Oh I know all of her lies are excuses or ways to stay out of trouble. I am not suggesting she has the truth locked away and she isnt sure of what happened. I KNOW - she knows what actually happened. My thought is this: is there a way to get the truth out using forensic hypnosis.

throw a little shock therapy in for good measure too, I agree:rocker:
 
  • #132
When someone has been caught in SOOOO many lies and is claiming a convenient 'fog' when it suits her defense, could prosecution order her to undergo Forensic Hypnosis?

I am so new to trials and legality of certain procedures so forgive me if this seems like an uneducated question.

It just seems like a practical solution.

Um how do you prove someone is hypnotized?
 
  • #133
oh how I'd love to read her psych evals. The woman is NUTZ!
 
  • #134
Um how do you prove someone is hypnotized?

It could be that I have watched too many forensic investigation shows on HLN. :blushing:
 
  • #135
FWIW when I was younger I experienced trauma. Not as bad as some of this I am sure. However, i can recall with clarity the events of that time. I have the in years following tried to forget. Jodi having no memory yet driving on highways and making out with a man following the events impossible. Discussion on this threads has been around her criminal record being clear up to this event. Maybe she was never caught doing anything illegal. In her other relationships she was always the one to end it first. Could be wrong about this so some one correct me.
If she is narsist so are many people but they don't murder. Is the narsistivty co-factoid with a personality disorder that makes a lethal mix?
 
  • #136
The fact, she appears to be remorseless is ASPD. Those of us that have BPD do HAVE remorse.

We do tend to lack empathy to varying degrees, which is different from remorse. It will be different with everyone. I'd say mine are on the low end of the spectrum. If you were to post that your best friend or dog died there are those that would empathize with you by what they say/feel. I know logically what to say, but I wouldn't feel anything. What comes naturally for most doesn't for me. Depending on the circumstance I'd have to think whether or not I'd feel anything. I can't always tell. This does NOT equate to being heartless. I'll still say what is appropriate, but inside I may not feel anything at all or care. This is making me sound bad. I wouldn't find happiness or joy in your pain. I'm just not in touch on an emotional level. I'm not sure how else to explain this but feel free to ask questions if you like.



Sociopath would fall under ASPD.



This is true.



No. BPD is a Personality Disorder, and Manic Depression would be a Mood Disorder.




There is Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), Mentalization Behavior Therapy (MBT), and Schema. I'm not very familiar with either MBT or Schema, because it's hard to find these programs. I've been through DBT and even that can be hard to find a program but much easier to find then the other two. I think studies have shown that DBT has about a 60% success rate.

The idea is to replace dysfunctional coping skills with more functional/healthy ones. The keyword would be "skill". It takes a lot practice at working these skills into your life to where they become more natural and less thought about. The course is useless if the person doesn't want to put in the effort. It's 6 months long, but most will take it for a minimum of a year. That's the length of time it takes for it to be really beneficial.

It has helped in some areas of my life, but I've also become VERY detached which I suspect, is in part, because of dbt. Because, I'm detached I don't have the intense emotional interpersonal craziness (lol). It's still a dysfunctional way in which to cope though because I've closed myself off emotionally to others. It's a way to protect myself from the pain that comes from the emotional intensity that will eventually manifest in relationships/friendships and ultimately leading to the ending of those relationships/friendships.

You will hear/read from those without bpd talk about how heartless we are, and evil, and don't care about the ones we hurt as if we enjoy it. Those are the people that have typically been in some sort of relationship/friendship with someone who has bpd. They can't be further from the truth. The truth is we are aware of the emotional pain that we inflict in relationships, and just like they are hurting emotionally, so are we. We want "normal" relationships, and hate ourselves for being the way we are. We are not having fun, we are not enjoying the pain we are causing others, and we are not evil.

We are not all the same. My personality traits are not necessarily going to be the same as someone else with bpd. There are other factors that come into play such as I have major depression, and a mild form of ptsd. Someone else may have bpd with bi polar etc. There are some of us where the bpd effects only relationships, and others (like me) where it effects friendships and relationships. I'm assuming mental health wise you are "normal", it's like me asking you if all "normal" people are angry all the time because some are. All people are different.

If you were to be around me or another person with bpd it's unlikely that you would know we have it until you became closer to us, and even then it would depend on the person. You'd probably never see it with me, because I'm closed off emotionally. It's kind of like if you're around me fine and if not that fine too. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. That does NOT mean that I'm going to be mean to you. I'd be nice, and I'd enjoy being around you or whoever otherwise I'd say no. All it means is I'm not going to have any kind of emotional attachment.



I'm sure some do, but probably most don't because they have some other underlying issue like major depression, bi polar etc.



This is true, and at some point it will catch up to them. for ie. go off of anti depressants it's likely they will have a depressive episode.



She appears to be remorseless which is a trait of ASPD. It's possible she may have traits of several disorders, but not enough traits to diagnose her with any specific personality disorder. In that case she would be pd-nos, which is personality disorder non specific.

Personality Disorders can be hard to diagnose even for Psychiatrist/Psychologists, and a good one won't immediately diagnose someone with a personality disorder. The problem with lay people copying and pasting the bpd (or any other pd) is that the trait has to be applied in the correct context and the personality disorder has to be looked at as a whole, and not just individual components. Because someone has intense anger does not mean they have bpd. It's possible they just have anger issues. Things have to add up.




Yes and no. A person with a mood disorder (ie. depression) is more likely to be hereditary, but it could also be from environmental factors. A personality disorder is a learned dysfunctional method of coping with some sort of traumatic event occurring in childhood. It becomes ingrained into our personality, because that is how we learn to cope.

There are no meds to cure or treat a personality disorder, however meds are usually prescribed to treat some other underlying symptom ie. anxiety. I don't know enough about other personality disorders, but with borderline I believe it can go into a state of remission if they have the appropriate therapy like dbt. I'm not sure we're ever really cured. I'm undecided, but lean towards no with other mental illness

If you want to know what dbt is like you can look at www.dbtselfhelp.com it's the entire dbt course online.


Thank you! Thank you! ....your insight and experience is so helpful... Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions...
 
  • #137
just for clarification I'm a guy.

Lol! Even better to get a guys perspective... And even more impressive that you have been so gracious in taking time to answer our questions...that's awesome!

Is BPD more common with women than men? ...you would think it would also be more extreme with women too since they have the whole 'hormonal' thing to deal with on top of BDP... Kinda like having "double BPD"
 
  • #138
MOO is that JA has a combination of PD including BPD, Narcisistic PD, Dependent PD and Histrionic PD; but maybe not limited to that. I admire anyone who gets therapy for their disorder because first you have to recognize that you have the disorder. I'd be willing to bet JA thinks she is just fine and everyone else is the problem.
 
  • #139
Electric shock therapy maybe? Her fog is an excuse but I believe she may have shocked even herself after realizing how brutally she stabbed him. She prefers not to recall that part.

Just a quick clarification: "Shock treatment" (electroconvulsive therapy) actually causes some memory loss and is used, with the patient's informed consent, to help treat depression. The patient is treated with dignity and respect by the team members administering the treatment. The patient is under full anesthesia while a controlled current is applied for just a few seconds, while only the big toe "twitches". Such therapy would not help JA recall anything; it would only give her more credence to chant, "I don't remember."

I think maybe requiring her to view a continuous slideshow of those post mortem photos might better jog her memory. Just my own humble opinion, of course.
 
  • #140
I think maybe requiring her to view a continuous slideshow of those post mortem photos might better jog her memory. Just my own humble opinion, of course.

:waitasec:I think the shock therapy thing was more of a sarcastic idea.

IMO her memory doesn't need to be 'jogged'. She has everything set in stone that day. Proof is in her testimony where she suddenly remembers somethings and conveniently forgets somethings.
 
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