Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[SMK]

Where can this analysis be found please.

Post 354 above; lil_buddy posted a pdf file about violent crimes and personality disorders. Bardo was considered a "magical thinking" schizoid type. There are many other good examples in this essay also.

 

[lil_buddy]

If you guys want to see a similar murder, psychologically speaking, IM0, that makes even less sense:
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/49768164#49768164
Sheila Davalloo

 

[BritsKate]

A few things I am still unclear on, if anyone could clarify:

• Why exactly did they break up?
• How involved was TA with a new woman?
• Who was she, and how much did JA know about her?
• In what way did TA allegedly let JA know he held the sex against her?

Okay, I'll try...but everything I thought I knew about this case continues to change as Jodi's testimony does.

1) They didn't exactly break up but I think Travis was trying to end things permanently when he was murdered. Their 'official' relationship ended because Jodi apparently found texts on Travis' phone to other women.

2) Not very. He was interested, she wasn't. They were going to Cancun as friends and staying in separate rooms. I believe Travis was hoping it would turn into more eventually.

3) Marie 'Mimi' Hall. According to her, next to nothing - yet their dates (Travis' and Mimi's are recorded in Arias' journal. I find that tidbit rather odd). My personal belief - as an obsessed psychopath stalking her victim and a previous girlfriend - she likely knew everything she could ascertain about Mimi from anyone they both knew and what she could find online. She probably knew more about her than Travis did.

4) In their recorded phone sex he questions whether they should be having sex. She manipulates him and discounts his concern. Travis also used a lot of name calling in this regard..., , etc. (I think that's what you're looking for?) Not all of those slurs were necessarily derogatory given the context though.

5) Don't forget, one of their last text conversations would have been May 26th. It was in this one Travis called Jodi a sociopath and stated she was the worst thing to ever have happened to him. Ultimately, I believe this exchange played a pivotal role in his death. The gun was stolen two days later and he was dead less than a week later.

HTH

 

[SMK]

Okay, I'll try...but everything I thought I knew about this case continues to change as Jodi's testimony does.

1) They didn't exactly break up but I think Travis was trying to end things permanently when he was murdered. Their 'official' relationship ended because Jodi apparently found texts on Travis' phone to other women.

2) Not very. He was interested, she wasn't. They were going to Cancun as friends and staying in separate rooms. I believe Travis was hoping it would turn into more eventually.

3) Marie 'Mimi' Hall. According to her, next to nothing - yet their dates (Travis' and Mimi's are recorded in Arias' journal. I find that tidbit rather odd). My personal belief - as an obsessed psychopath stalking her victim and a previous girlfriend - she likely knew everything she could ascertain about Mimi from anyone they both knew and what she could find online. She probably knew more about her than Travis did.

4) In their recorded phone sex he questions whether they should be having sex. She manipulates him and discounts his concern. Travis also used a lot of name calling in this regard..., , etc. (I think that's what you're looking for?) Not all of those slurs were necessarily derogatory given the context though.

5) Don't forget, one of their last text conversations would have been May 26th. It was in this one Travis called Jodi a sociopath and stated she was the worst thing to ever have happened to him. Ultimately, I believe this exchange played a pivotal role in his death. The gun was stolen two days later and he was dead less than a week later.

HTH

Thanks so much for such a thorough response. :great: Much appreciated.

I see that you are right: JA likely had a great fear that the Cancun trip would be the catalyst for TA and the new Mimi to become lovers, given the romantic setting and the time alone, and his attractive looks and ambitious personality -

- and for him to call it quits and call her a sociopath (instead of a goddess) had to have been the bitter end for her.

I guess when I was in my 20s if obsessed with a guy like this and ending like this I would have felt fear, horror, shame, and worthlessness. In her case, she felt RAGE. I am just trying to reconcile the rage with premeditation?
ETA: I was just looking at this article and I think it answers my last question:

Bonn acknowledged the apparently premeditative aspects of the crime, but said that in his opinion, things could have gone one way or another, assuming Arias killed Alexander in 2008.

"I think she went there prepared to kill and what probably happened -- and would be consistent with a sociopathic emotional outburst -- is he might have shoved it in her face about going with another women or something along those lines that triggered her jealously and she snapped. I think that's a very likely scenario," Bonn said.

 

[Ricochet]

The majority of persons who commit violent crimes, whether habitually or in unique circumstances, exhibit a personality disorder.

The majority, not all, so there are those without a PD that commit violent crimes as well. Also, lumping ALL personality disorders into one study gives the wrong impression that somehow we're all created equal when that is a false assumption. The study is clear that certain PD's are more likely to be offenders then others.

Since a large proportion of violent crimes, especially those involving repeated acts of violence, are committed by persons whose profiles fit criteria for either antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) or psychopathy (according to the criteria of Robert Hare, Harpur, & Hakstian, 1990).

Besides narcissistic personality or traits thereof— which underlie almost all types of violent crime, antisocial, psychopathic, sadistic, paranoid and
explosive-irritable types are particularly common in this realm.

The distinction between psychopathy and DSM’s antisocial PD is important in the estimation of recidivism risk, given the high risk associated with psychopathy (Hemphill, Templeman, Wong, & Hare, 1998). In the assessment—and ultimately in the sentencing—of persons committing violent crimes, greater emphasis should be placed on this diagnostic distinction. ‘Time served’ should be based optimally on the risk for future dangerousness (as best we can estimate this), rather than on arbitrary sentences of ‘x’ years for rape, ‘y’ years for murder, etc. The prognosis will often be better for those who do not meet criteria for psychopathy, however fl amboyant their careers may have been for antisocial behaviours in their 20s and 30s. Among the former Los Angeles gang members (from the ‘Crips’ and other gangs) that I
interviewed recently—men now in their late 40s—those who had long antisocial careers, but were not psychopathic, had changed dramatically,
had entered a state of redemption and were now— after having been incarcerated for many years— leading constructive lives in the community (often working to rehabilitate troubled youths in the same gangs they had formerly belonged to).

Also the study is somewhat misleading when personality types are included in a study that is suppose to be about personality disorders, and there is a difference.

The study is clear that the majority of crimes related to personality disorders revolves mostly around ASPD and NPD, and to a lesser degree other pd's. ALL violent crimes are NOT committed by people with a personality diorder. It would be interesting to learn what the rate was between someone with BPD vs NON PD, HPD vs NON PD or SPD vs NON PD rather than lumping all PD's into one group when it's clear that not all PD's react the sameway ie. bpd vs aspd. Also, do any other underlying traits of a pd insufficient to diagnose exist with the diagnosed pd. For ie.. it's possible that someone who meets the requirements to be properly diagnosed BPD may have traits of ASPD but insufficient to properly diagnose ASPD.

Since I have bpd it's important to try and diffuse the stigma associated with pd's and mental illness as a whole. I think, it's clear that many (not all) take the traits of bpd and apply them incorrectly, and the application is relevant. What is also relevant is they are not easily diagnosed, and a good Psychologist/Psychiatrist will not be quick to diagnose because it is a pattern of behavior that is sustained over a period of time. One or two instances does not make a PD. Being afraid of me would be the same as me being afraid of you, because there are some people without pd's that commit violent acts. The point being whether it is someone with a PD or NON PD we are not all created equal, and this is something we should be mindful of.

 

[SMK]

The majority, not all, so there are those without a PD that commit violent crimes as well. Also, lumping ALL personality disorders into one study gives the wrong impression that somehow we're all created equal when that is a false assumption. The study is clear that certain PD's are more likely to be offenders then others.









Also the study is somewhat misleading when personality types are included in a study that is suppose to be about personality disorders, and there is a difference.

The study is clear that the majority of crimes related to personality disorders revolves mostly around ASPD and NPD, and to a lesser degree other pd's. ALL violent crimes are NOT committed by people with a personality diorder. It would be interesting to learn what the rate was between someone with BPD vs NON PD, HPD vs NON PD or SPD vs NON PD rather than lumping all PD's into one group when it's clear that not all PD's react the sameway ie. bpd vs aspd. Also, do any other underlying traits of a pd insufficient to diagnose exist with the diagnosed pd. For ie.. it's possible that someone who meets the requirements to be properly diagnosed BPD may have traits of ASPD but insufficient to properly diagnose ASPD.

Since I have bpd it's important to try and diffuse the stigma associated with pd's and mental illness as a whole. I think, it's clear that many (not all) take the traits of bpd and apply them incorrectly, and the application is relevant. What is also relevant is they are not easily diagnosed, and a good Psychologist/Psychiatrist will not be quick to diagnose because it is a pattern of behavior that is sustained over a period of time. One or two instances does not make a PD. Being afraid of me would be the same as me being afraid of you, because there are some people without pd's that commit violent acts. The point being whether it is someone with a PD or NON PD we are not all created equal, and this is something we should be mindful of.

Absolutely agreed. Well said.

 

[SMK]

One last question in general - do not mean to be a pain here, but to me it is really the crux:

Why exactly did Travis decide to see other women and discount Jodi as his future wife?

After all,
~she had converted to Mormonism;
~ he obviously found her attractive;
~he enjoyed the kinky sex, and if they married, he would be killing 2 birds with one stone: Getting a Mormon wife who would let him play out his wildest fantasies - having his cake and eating it , too.

-------- It keeps being stated that her jealousy and his lack of commitment were making things escalate to danger----but I still don't get why it was that he did not want to marry her.....(yes, we all see now clearly how psychotic and dangerous she is, but his dumping her MADE this come out clearly. So what happened?:waitasec::waitasec:

 

[lil_buddy]

One last question in general - do not mean to be a pain here, but to me it is really the crux:

Why exactly did Travis decide to see other women and discount Jodi as his future wife?

After all,
~she had converted to Mormonism;
~ he obviously found her attractive;
~he enjoyed the kinky sex, and if they married, he would be killing 2 birds with one stone: Getting a Mormon wife who would let him play out his wildest fantasies - having his cake and eating it , too.

-------- It keeps being stated that her jealousy and his lack of commitment were making things escalate to danger----but I still don't get why it was that he did not want to marry her.....(yes, we all see now clearly how psychotic and dangerous she is, but his dumping her MADE this come out clearly. So what happened?:waitasec::waitasec:

Here's the thing...
All we REALLY 'know' is what JA has told us - this applies to your earlier questions as well. We will never know Travis' side of the story.
According to JA, she the one who dumped TA and TA wanted to marry her.
BUT JA has also said that TA told her he planned to marry Marie Hall. Marie Hall said they never dated seriously and they were only friends.

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

Yes - the whole debate is fascinating. I must admit the more I view JA on video, the less sympathetic a character she appears. Perplexing and disturbing not to understand her true motivations and animus.

I believe the main reason for this case to be getting so much national attention is Jodi herself. The more you watch her, the more disturbing it gets. I first heard the name Jodi Arias back on the 48 hours TV program in 2008 I believe (might have been earlier). She made a lasting impression on me then. I remember having the very unnerving feeling she was too detached and pleasant for her grim circumstances (she was in jail charged with murder). She would smile and be very cheery with the interviewer. Her affect was totally out-of-whack with her outward circumstances. I remember thinking, "something is very strange about this girl." It was chilling then and watching her now is deeply perplexing and unnerving to me.

 

[SMK]

Here's the thing...
All we REALLY 'know' is what JA has told us - this applies to your earlier questions as well. We will never know Travis' side of the story.
According to JA, she the one who dumped TA and TA wanted to marry her.
BUT JA has also said that TA told her he planned to marry Marie Hall. Marie Hall said they never dated seriously and they were only friends.

Thanks. Now I am beginning to grasp that this is one of those stories where the main subject is lying and there cannot really be a full reckoning of facts. Perhaps she DID in fact attempt several times to cut him off, likely as a ploy to keep him on his guard. This does not preclude her being the one who was actually rejected....thanks again....

 

[SMK]

I believe the main reason for this case to be getting so much national attention is Jodi herself. The more you watch her, the more disturbing it gets. I first heard the name Jodi Arias back on the 48 hours TV program in 2008 I believe (might have been earlier). She made a lasting impression on me then. I remember having the very unnerving feeling she was too detached and pleasant for her grim circumstances (she was in jail charged with murder). She would smile and be very cheery with the interviewer. Her affect was totally out-of-whack with her outward circumstances. I remember thinking, "something is very strange about this girl." It was chilling then and watching her now is deeply perplexing and unnerving to me.

Yes, and I guess this "flat affect" of hers and the entire persona she presents must have been confusing to TA as well.

 

[SMK]

Another thing which is confusing, relating to the psychology of Travis himself:

When the 5 friends found his body, they immediately told 911 that they thought Jodi had killed him. Thus, he must have told them he thought she was dangerous. And on one of his blog posts when he was embarking on a search for a new gf, he said, "I hope my new date will not have an axe murderer buried deep within her." So he was already believing that Jodi was a murderer.

So one would think if he was found dead, he would have been fully clothed in the living room, stabbed after telling Jodi he did not want her to come in. Yet we see his last pictures of him calmly taking a shower, fully naked while she snapped pictures. Did he believe that she would only kill during an argument? Hard to know what his mind set was.....

 

[SMK]

I believe Jodi turned Travis inside out. After awhile, the degraded sex became the norm. I believe she taught him almost every nasty deed they deed.

She, instinctively knew what he wanted and what his weaknesses were...as all psychopths do. She lured him into the perversion. He wanted out and wanted to go back to normal. She was not about to let that occur because that meant she had to go for that to happen.

These types are masters at manipulation. Even to trained therapists, they will wrap you up and spit you out. They twist you and turn you and you will doubt yourself. It is pure evil and for those who have never experienced it, it will not be understood. I have seen it at work and had to experience it in the job I had. It will chill you to the bone. I have seen small buckets of blood in some of the workings they pull off in attempted suicide (of course, they weren't going to die as they had it timed for staff to discover the deed). I know of them tormenting patients in their sleep by standing over them with a knife. Jodie is pure evil. She has got by in life on her looks and manipulation. They watch/monitor everything you do. You are not aware of this at first.

Sure Travis fell for the sex. He was a target for this. He had no idea that this kind of evil exists and certainly didn't think sex escapades were going to kill him. He got down and dirty with her. He acted as if in a trance around her when they played out their fantasies. When he woke up, his fate was sealed.

I have watched trained psychiatrists and psychologists lose their jobs over these cons. They play people against each other and you will never see it coming. Even people trained in Borderline/narcissitic/anti-social psychopathy fall in their trap. They are THAT good. Travis was a victim and nothing more in her web of evil.

I know this post was from awhile ago, but as I am new to the case and going through the threads, I just wondered something:

The bolded above makes sense to me. Can anyone tell me how they arrived at the conclusions that JA introduced TA to these sex acts, and that after awhile he wished to return to normal?

Was it something TA said in texts, or what his friends said? It is a very reasonable theory; just hoping to see some evidence to solidify it. Thanks.

 

[BritsKate]

Another thing which is confusing, relating to the psychology of Travis himself:

When the 5 friends found his body, they immediately told 911 that they thought Jodi had killed him. Thus, he must have told them he thought she was dangerous. And on one of his blog posts when he was embarking on a search for a new gf, he said, "I hope my new date will not have an axe murderer buried deep within her." So he was already believing that Jodi was a murderer.

So one would think if he was found dead, he would have been fully clothed in the living room, stabbed after telling Jodi he did not want her to come in. Yet we see his last pictures of him calmly taking a shower, fully naked while she snapped pictures. Did he believe that she would only kill during an argument? Hard to know what his mind set was.....

I've talked about this more on the main thread but even when you're confronted with a dangerous person threatening to kill you, its easier to dismiss it when its someone you have feelings for, someone you've loved and trusted.

When that someone is also likely psychopathic it adds a layer that's difficult to understand for people who haven't experienced it. Psychopaths are so manipulative, and know their targets so very well, that they are capable of getting people to do many things they might not normally. They're experts at causing their targets to discount their own fears and ignore their better instincts. Ultimately, in my experience, psychopaths are predators with very predatory behavior. Their every action is all wrapped around their own survival.

MOO

 

[SMK]

I've talked about this more on the main thread but even when you're confronted with a dangerous person threatening to kill you, its easier to dismiss it when its someone you have feelings for, someone you've loved and trusted.

When that someone is also likely psychopathic it adds a layer that's difficult to understand for people who haven't experienced it. Psychopaths are so manipulative, and know their targets so very well, that they are capable of getting people to do many things they might not normally. They're experts at causing their targets to discount their own fears and ignore their better instincts. Ultimately, in my experience, psychopaths are predators with very predatory behavior. Their every action is all wrapped around their own survival.

MOO

Thanks. Yes, ignoring one's better instincts would seem to apply here. And it was likely natural enough for him to envision her being dangerous during a heated argument. Not in a premeditated silent ambush....

 

[SweetT]

Speaking as someone who has been afraid, has had a gun pulled on them and had a spouse who was very much psychotic. You may fear them when they are angry, but when they are not angry they are most loving at least in my case. I would not have feared him if he did not seem mad at me at that moment. Also I think we all like to think stuff like that can never happen to me. My ex also went out of his way to ruin my reputation etc in front of his family. He told them things that were not true to get them to dislike me...all part of his plan to be with his new woman. He knew they would not approve of him having an affair but if he could make me look bad then they might be ok with him leaving me for someone else. So in a way, even this was a planned and premeditated thing he did.

 

[thelmadawg]

If you guys want to see a similar murder, psychologically speaking, IM0, that makes even less sense:
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/49768164#49768164
Sheila Davalloo

Very interesting in so many ways. These folks seem to literally have some absent or disconnected wires in their brain where compassion and remorse normally reside . . .

 

[SMK]

I was wondering if anyone had seen this Dateline segment, and the clip of the author who is writing the book on Arias/Alexander murder.

I did not know about this Mormon concept of age 30 being massively, hugely important for a Mormon man, and the idea of wards. Again, big emphasis on sin and Jodi not being marriage material. Did she fully realize this? Now I am back to my original view re TA's hypocrisy and playing with fire.

Interesting.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geSzeuJqfo4

 

[SMK]

Actually the entire Dateline(can see on their nbc channel) is very good - and very enlightening....Probably everyone has seen it, but I've just chanced upon it now .....Really do see her as cold and haughty and dishonest now....:furious:

 

[lil_buddy]

Very interesting in so many ways. These folks seem to literally have some absent or disconnected wires in their brain where compassion and remorse normally reside . . .

It's more than just lack of compassion/remorse...
Simple logic dictates that committing these murders would not solve their (JA, SD) problems or get them what they wanted.