Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*

[katydid23]

I heard this the other day but thought I was mishearing it. She can't possibly be now claiming they didn't eat leftovers from the meal can she?

YUP. Apparently that is what she said in response to Dr R, when she was confronting EP about the number of steaks, etc. And what the leftovers were.
She responded by saying ' I told my kids they were leftovers but I never said lunch.

I hope the jury picked up on that.

 

[BreakingNews]

RSBM
Well, I had only 99% made up my mind before the trial. But once Erin was testifying, well IMO there was no more doubt. And it is not just that her personality, or character defect, or whatever it is that makes her appear (at least to me) so unlikeable, but (again IMO) there are so many things she has claimed as fact that simply don't add up. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if all the jurors feel the same. MOO

Not pointed this at you Kemug. It is easy to have strong opinions.
Once empaneled you would realise life is not that simple. It's really not about guilt or innocence. It's about the law. That is why after all that has been heard during the trial, it is the judge who has the last say to the jury.
If anyone came in on day 1 of the trial saying they were 99% sure of guilt, probably the foreperson would report this to the judge and you would be removed. You take an oath to be impartial and uphold the law. You are asked if there is any reason you can't be impartial beforehand. If you lie, expect trouble.

 

[Jess D]

Could I confuse the Deathcap with anything else?​

You shouldn’t confuse it with any of the ordinary field mushrooms (in the genus Agaricus), where the gills are pink at first but eventually turn brown.

Deathcap mushroom - Amanita phalloides

The Deathcap Mushroom - Amanita phalloides, identification, emergency phone number, one of several illustrated pages introducing Australian fungi.

www.anbg.gov.au

 

[HoneyBunOne]

Figures vary. Other sites say up to 50%. Regardless, all sites talk about the extreme toxicity of this plant and the small amounts of the toxin that can lead to death. Anyone knowingly putting them in a meal is playing with fire.

I'm not persuaded that she didn't know exactly what she was doing and I am of the opinion that her intent was for these old folks to no longer be 'a problem' for her.

The thing is, these percentages are possibly based on knowing quite early on that foraged mushrooms were eaten. When presenting at hospital and being asked what they ate, the patients would tell the truth about the source of the food. Antidotes and treatment can then be targeted, likely saving lives and keeping the statistics down..

However, in this case it was lie, lie, deny, deny. Don't help the medical staff do what they could to save most of your family, and worry about the consequences later. Instead it was protect Erin at all costs.

 

[katydid23]

I think Erin's children are her Achilles Heel. I think she really does love them, and genuinely didn't want them to be alarmed by being tested for poison. But by objecting to that, it just raised more suspicion, and was another dot to connect. MOO

Yes, and that's why it looked so suspicious. Her kids ate some of the same meal that put 4 people into intensive care unit of the hospital. Surely, if EP had no idea what harmed them, she would be very worried about her kid's safety.

Erin said she didn't believe it was mushrooms that made the victims ill. If she didn't know what made them sick, why did she keep saying ' my kids didn't eat the mushrooms, they are OK.?'

How would she know that if she really didn't know what made the lunch guests so ill?

 

[Old Soul]

Something to keep in mind, though, is that this may be the first ingestion of dried and powdered death caps. In the cases that these percentages are based on, people have foraged them and eaten them fresh. It could be that powdering them makes them much more deadly.

Excellent point. Most studies have cited people eating between one bite to about 10 mushrooms, with very poor outcomes.
We have no idea how many mushrooms were dehydrated and made into a powder, a lot is my guess. I imagine a poisoner would be very generous with their dosage (remember Gail only ate half of her BW and still died).
The evidence of Erin using digital scales suggests to me that she was calculating quantities for dosage. IMO

 

[BreakingNews]

Exactly! I wish that the prosecution had actually pushed her a bit more about these comments and directly asked her “so you’re implying that your children’s testimony is either a lie or they have consistently bad memories”?
I guess she would have just followed her usual commenting though and agreed she thought they forgot or remembered incorrectly or didn’t properly understand.
Still, I wanted the prosecution to punch it home sometimes on comments like this!

I think emotive words might have caused an objection from the defence

 

[katydid23]

I think that is why I can't see this Plan A as a likely scenario is she is guilty. You can't rule it out but it would require an incredible level of naievity.

As I've said before, this case became internationally famous based off the fact that 3 people had died at a meal and the only one who escaped unscathed was the cook. At this point, we knew literally nothing else but a lot of people presumed she was guilty. It's inconceivable that she'd have potentially killed 5 and been the only survivor and would have thought she wouldn't have been public enemy number one.

Of course Erin is clever and probably thorough, but in this scenario it seems likely she made a miscalculation about the DC mushrooms. Even now, if you search how likely someone is to die on Google, the ai generated response quotes 10-30%. Maybe the act of powdering it meant it was much more potent than she realised it would be, and she was anticipating a much more mixed bag of illness and death to which she would fit into with a bit of gastro.

Yes, ^^^that's what I am wondering. Did powdering the Death Caps intensify their impact.

I think it is possible because they did not have pieces of mushroom to digest before the toxins were delivered. I think the toxins being in powdered form would speed up the delivery of the poison into the bloodstream the digestive track and then the liver.

 

[katydid23]

The thing is, these percentages are possibly based on knowing quite early on that foraged mushrooms were eaten. When presenting at hospital and being asked what they ate, the patients would tell the truth about the source of the food. Antidotes and treatment can then be targeted, likely saving lives and keeping the statistics down..

However, in this case it was lie, lie, deny, deny. Don't help the medical staff do what they could to save most of your family, and worry about the consequences later. Instead it was protect Erin at all costs.

That's true. If EP had foraged for mushrooms and used them in the dish, and proudly said these delicious mushroom were picked by me last spring, it would have been a different story.

As soon as they both began to get very sick on Saturday night they probably would have gone right to the hospital and said they had eaten foraged mushrooms. It might have saved their lives if they had the antidote on Saturday night vs Monday.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Erin Patterson is nothing if not unconventional. According to her, revenge is a dish best served.....hot.

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, ^^^that's what I am wondering. Did powdering the Death Caps intensify their impact.

I think it is possible because the did not have pieces of mushroom to digest before the toxins were delivered. I think the toxins being in powdered form would speed up the delivery of the poison into the bloodstream the digestive track and then the liver.

I saved this article about the delivery of the toxins to the organs. I agree the delivery would likely be much faster if the death caps were powdered because less digestion would be required. imo

Early and massive hydration seems to be key in flushing the toxins from the system. Hydration which was likely initially impossible with the victims suffering from vomiting and diarrhea for hours and hours at home.


"Upon ingestion of death cap, about 60 percent of the absorbed amatoxins travel directly to the liver. Both poisoned and healthy liver cells spit out amatoxins into bile, which is then concentrated in the gall bladder.
At the end of the small intestine, most of the bile gets reabsorbed back into the liver. Amatoxins re-enter the liver via the same receptors as the bile salts, and the poisoning cycle repeats.

The other 40 percent of absorbed amatoxins initially make a beeline to the kidneys, which serve as the blood-waste treatment center of the body.
Until the kidneys kick out every last bit of poison, amatoxins continue damaging the liver. The kidneys can continue to function only if the victim stays sufficiently hydrated.

Without aggressive hydration, amatoxins poison the kidneys as well. After the kidneys fail, rapid organ failure is not far behind."

The Most Dangerous Mushroom Is Spreading. Here’s How to Treat Poisoning.

The death cap mushroom likely kills and poisons more people every year than any other mushroom. Now there finally appears to be an effective...

slate.com

 

[MsMarple]

I mean, she did insist that she scraped the mushrooms off, of course they're lunch leftovers! What else would they be leftovers from? She gets so into sniping back in think she forgets her purpose.

I don’t think that was lost on the jurors. Many people dislike weasel words so imagine how it sounded to the very people who will determine her future. She overplayed her hand IMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I don’t think that was lost on the jurors. Many people dislike weasel words so imagine how it sounded to the very people who will determine her future. She overplayed her hand IMO

I think that Erin also overplayed her hand regarding Phone A. Basically ... "oh, the police didn't take it, so I tossed it".

She clearly knew there was a search warrant that included her devices. Not helpful. Might even be called a hindrance.

imo

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Question for the Aussie folks. Is "agree or disagree" standard phrasing for barristers way down there, or is that just Rogers's thing?

 

[MrJ]

Question for the Aussie folks. Is "agree or disagree" standard phrasing for barristers way down there, or is that just Rogers's thing?

I would put to you that's a pretty common tactic in Australia.

 

[SouthAussie]

Question for the Aussie folks. Is "agree or disagree" standard phrasing for barristers way down there, or is that just Rogers's thing?

Seems to be going by 'the book'.


If the witness is trying to fudge and give answers that could be deemed to be unclear then ask him or her to agree or disagree with your repeating of what they have said – Mm’s, Uh’s and answers like maybe don’t help a lot. Make sure you get clear and concise answers if at all possible.

a Be brief;
b Use plain words;
c Ask only leading questions;
d Be prepared;
e Listen carefully;
f Don’t argue with witnesses;
g Avoid repetition;
h Limit witnesses explanations;
i Limit questioning;
and
j Save the main point for your closing address.

CROSS-EXAMINATION


9. Do not argue with the witness. A cross-examiner may be tempted to argue with a witness in an attempt to compel the witness to agree with him/her. Usually what happens is that the witness confirms his/her previous evidence.
“How to Cross-Examine a Witness in an Australian Court”

 

[MrJ]

All I can say is bring on Monday!

 

[Little Jack]

I saved this article about the delivery of the toxins to the organs. I agree the delivery would likely be much faster if the death caps were powdered because less digestion would be required. imo

Early and massive hydration seems to be key in flushing the toxins from the system. Hydration which was likely initially impossible with the victims suffering from vomiting and diarrhea for hours and hours at home.


"Upon ingestion of death cap, about 60 percent of the absorbed amatoxins travel directly to the liver. Both poisoned and healthy liver cells spit out amatoxins into bile, which is then concentrated in the gall bladder.
At the end of the small intestine, most of the bile gets reabsorbed back into the liver. Amatoxins re-enter the liver via the same receptors as the bile salts, and the poisoning cycle repeats.

The other 40 percent of absorbed amatoxins initially make a beeline to the kidneys, which serve as the blood-waste treatment center of the body.
Until the kidneys kick out every last bit of poison, amatoxins continue damaging the liver. The kidneys can continue to function only if the victim stays sufficiently hydrated.

Without aggressive hydration, amatoxins poison the kidneys as well. After the kidneys fail, rapid organ failure is not far behind."

The Most Dangerous Mushroom Is Spreading. Here’s How to Treat Poisoning.

The death cap mushroom likely kills and poisons more people every year than any other mushroom. Now there finally appears to be an effective...

slate.com

Horrific to contemplate

 

[ishtvara]

There can be no justice for the victims who died nor for those who loved them, but how ever the verdict falls, I hope that SP finds some validation and healing from EP being exposed as ... a truth dodger. Someone who is never wrong, slides the scale, shifts the blame, it's an exhaustive personality to face daily -- and where children are involved -- it's more complicated, harder to see, harder to leave.

We see it, SP.

When a person like EP drains the wellspring of those around them, they're still not satisfied. They'll take the well, the pump and the bucket too. And blame you, that they had to.

JMO

I'm somewhat surpised that Simon has not divorced her at this stage.

 

[MrJ]

What an extraordinary exchange.

Dr Rogers: How long did you lie down for?

Ms Patterson: I don't know.

Dr Rogers: That's untrue, isn't it? … It's untrue that you lay down?

Ms Patterson: No.

Dr Rogers: Surely that's the last thing you would do in these circumstances?

Ms Patterson: It might be the last thing you'd do, but it was something I did.

Dr Rogers: After you'd been told by medical staff that you had potentially ingested a life-threatening poison, isn't it the last thing that you would do, is to lie down in those circumstances?

Ms Patterson: They didn't tell me it was life-threatening.

The moments from Erin Patterson's evidence that didn't make headlines

Amid repeated prosecution accusations of murder, deceit and cover-up, there were exchanges about the right time for a "lie down" and errors in the days of the week, as Erin Patterson finished her evidence.

www.abc.net.au