Yes! Especially since Mr Mandy says that Erin was in the habit of picking random mushrooms and trying a bit to see if they made her sick before eating more of them. Why did these go straight to the dehydrator without a taste test then?
Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*
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I haven't been around today to follow all of this but ...
EP admits that death cap mushrooms were in the meal she served.
How did death caps -- which only grow in particular parts of VIC -- end up in EP's kitchen?
What is Mandy's answer to that? Are we back to the Asian grocer bollocks?
EP admits that death cap mushrooms were in the meal she served.
How did death caps -- which only grow in particular parts of VIC -- end up in EP's kitchen?
What is Mandy's answer to that? Are we back to the Asian grocer bollocks?
And he knows that because she told him so.
Cop: Do you own a dehydrator?
EP: No, because if I did you'd find out about my binge eating.
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I suspect he will use Erin’s testimony of getting the “Asian grocer” mushrooms and foraged mushrooms mixed up in her Tupperware container. I wonder if he’ll mention the pungent smell or not though
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From the ABC live blog today:
“Mr Mandy revisits his examination of Ian Wilkinson and his account of the July 29 lunch.
In her own testimony, Erin Patterson conceded she had misled Ian Wilkinson and the other guests about a cancer diagnosis.
Mr Mandy suggests to the jury there are differences between Mr Wilkinson's testimony during the trial and the police interview he gave after the lunch.
He emphasises terms such as "I think", "I believe" and "suspected" in Ian Wilkinson's police interview, and asks the jury to take into account the "frailty" of memory.
Mr Mandy states, however, that Mr Wilkinson's account is "not that much different" to Ms Patterson's client's account of the lunch.
He says Ms Patterson merely lied to hide her habits of binge-eating.”
I wonder if it will sit well with the jury that the defence has been trying to discredit the credibility of the only surviving lunch guest. IMO. Bearing in mind that it’s Colin Mandy’s job it’s still not the best of optics surely?
“Mr Mandy revisits his examination of Ian Wilkinson and his account of the July 29 lunch.
In her own testimony, Erin Patterson conceded she had misled Ian Wilkinson and the other guests about a cancer diagnosis.
Mr Mandy suggests to the jury there are differences between Mr Wilkinson's testimony during the trial and the police interview he gave after the lunch.
He emphasises terms such as "I think", "I believe" and "suspected" in Ian Wilkinson's police interview, and asks the jury to take into account the "frailty" of memory.
Mr Mandy states, however, that Mr Wilkinson's account is "not that much different" to Ms Patterson's client's account of the lunch.
He says Ms Patterson merely lied to hide her habits of binge-eating.”
I wonder if it will sit well with the jury that the defence has been trying to discredit the credibility of the only surviving lunch guest. IMO. Bearing in mind that it’s Colin Mandy’s job it’s still not the best of optics surely?
I would pair that with the fact that per testimony, several of them were surprised to be invited, she needed to make an excuse of an urgent medical issue to convince them to come, and she prepared a rather showy, fancy dish (Australian folks here, please correct me if I'm wrong, but BW doesn't look like something one serves very frequently), but made the fancy dish into one with proportioned servings...It all really does add up. MOO
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I've never eaten it once my whole life. And I had a full compliment of English grandparents. It's not commonly served out here. Too much faff, requires a lot of prep and an expensive cut of meat.
A full roast, even, say, an eight hours slow cook lamb on the bone, is less effort, tastes better, and serves more people once you factor in the spuds and steamed veg.
There are only two reasons to make a Wellington, IMO.
1. It is your favourite food to eat and make.
2. You want to show off. "I've made this incredibly complicated thing, isn't it amazing, aren't I amazing, you should be humbled and grateful that I did it."
MOO
MaxDecimus13
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I've never eaten it, or seen it eaten, and I'm English. I've probably seen it on a menu now and again but nothing concrete that I can remember.
MaxDecimus13
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We know Erin disposed of evidence in the days after the meal. It is reasonable to suspect that there was evidence disposed of that was never found.
The plates could fit into this but regardless, the key point was that two witnesses remembered Erin's plate being substantially different.
MaxDecimus13
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I've always thought that grey and white can be pretty close anyway. It's not beyond the realms that a very light-grey would be called white by one and grey by another.
Nor I. A Mushroom Wellington, on the other hand (obtainable ready-made from a frozen food supplier), is a favourite !
EP's Stmts, "Not Made Up." Weaponizing Mushrooms.
@drsleuth Thx for your link w quotes of the closing argument by defense.
First.
"“Erin loved mushrooms. Not only the wild mushrooms. Also eating them. There’s evidence of that. It’s not made up. She told people that,” Mandy said."
(bbm)
His seeming logic: since there's evd. (IDR exactly what) that EP said that she loved mushrooms, then that's true.
This ^ despite def. conceding that EP gave multiple false stmts to multiple ppl, including fam & LE over an extended post-lunch period. Didn't def use the specific word "lied" about those stmts?
Second.
Are EP's feelings (whether love, like, dislike, hate or indifference, whatever) about mushrooms relevant in some way? Any way?
If by deliberately* placing DC mushrooms into the BWs & serving them to her guests, EP intended to cause serious harm,* and if ingesting BW caused three deaths, EP's "love" of mushrooms seems irrelevant to Q of her guilt imo.
If a def't. loved cricket - playing cricket, watching her kids' cricket games, watching prof. cricket in person & TV, even carving cricket bats from the choicest white willow (Salix alba var. caerulea) - and def't used a cricket bat to bludgeon three ppl to death, is def't's "love" of cricket somehow exculpatory? Relevant? IDTS, but ICBWrong.
________________________
* I've forgotten the exact magic words of VIC crim statute.
11.00am
False clarity, ambiguous situations and the ‘seductive trap’ of hindsight
By
To begin the third day of his closing statements, Erin Patterson’s defence lawyer, Colin Mandy, SC, cautioned the jury against the seductive trap of hindsight reasoning.
The prosecution, he told the jury, will determine his client’s fate, and on Monday asked them to imagine what they would do if the death cap poisoning was a “horrible accident”.
It was, Mandy continued, a “dangerous and seductive” exercise. He said that kind of hindsight reasoning shifted the burden of proof onto the defence, despite it being the prosecution’s job to prove what the accused did, and not to engage in hypotheticals on what others might do in that situation.
“What they should be really relying on should be the evidence that ... they say establishes the guilt of the offending,” Mandy said. “Hindsight reasoning can create a false clarity about ambiguous situations.”
Mandy said things seemed obvious in retrospect, adding that the pattern of someone’s behaviour and personality did not determine guilt.
“You just don’t know what you would do if you were confronted in that situation,” Mandy said.
Mandy said Patterson was not on trial for being a liar. He said the analysis by the prosecution undermined the presumption of innocence and may make guilt seem more probable.
“It corrupts the reasonable doubt standard,” Mandy said.
Mandy said that nothing that Patterson did after the lunch changed her intent when she served the meal.
11.15am
A question of what Erin Patterson knew - and when
By
As Erin Patterson’s lawyer continues his closing arguments, he slowly weaves in questions about what his client knew, and when.
This morning, Colin Mandy, SC, is questioning Patterson’s alleged knowledge of her in-laws, Don and Gail Patterson, being in a coma on the Tuesday morning after the fateful lunch.
“How was Erin Patterson ever going to find out that Don and Gail were in a coma on that Tuesday morning? The doctors weren’t telling her, we know that. That’d be breaching doctor confidentiality if they did. [Leongatha Dr Veronica] Foote told you about that.”
As with health professionals, Mandy continued, family members were also limiting medical updates. “So, how was Erin going to find that out?”
Mandy said one way she could have found out was to ask someone how they are, but the prosecution’s case was that she never asked that.
“In our submission, there isn’t evidence in this trial that Don and Gail were in comas at that time. Notwithstanding all of that, the impression that’s being painted to you is that Erin Patterson is wrong or lying ... and that’s incorrect,” Mandy said.
Tanya Patterson provided evidence that she recalled Patterson telling her she knew they were in a coma when she visited her in hospital that Tuesday.
Mandy suggested that the possibility was that his client’s sister-in-law could have a mistaken recollection of that conversation.
11.29am
A portrait of affection: Enduring family love after separation
By
The Patterson family was anchored by deep affection - the kind of affection that can persist even through separation.
This is the picture Erin Patterson’s defence lawyer, Colin Mandy, SC, is painting in courtroom four in Morwell.
Patterson, on trial for the alleged murder of Don and Gail Patterson and Heather Wilkinson, was the kind of daughter-in-law who wanted to be close to her relatives, Mandy told the jury.
He reminded them of Patterson’s estranged husband’s evidence that in 2012, the family decided to move back from Perth because Patterson wanted to be closer to her in-laws.
“Simon Patterson gave a fair bit of evidence about that,” Mandy told the jury.
Mandy said that included Simon agreeing during his evidence that Don and Gail loved Patterson, and Patterson loved Don and Gail, and telling the court Patterson was particularly close to Don.
Mandy said Patterson and Simon had a respectful relationship and that even when they separated, there were no lawyers involved and assets were split down the middle.
“Consider that for a moment. Pause and think about that. In seven years since the official separation, dealing with two children in a respectful way with each other, and if there were the occasional disagreement ... they were resolved really smoothly and respectfully and that’s a significant thing for people who are separated,” Mandy said.
“It says a lot about the relationship.″
11.42am
How a lockdown hobby helped unlock a passion for mushrooms
By
Erin Patterson’s interest in wild mushrooms started as a hobby that blossomed during the quietude of the COVID-19 lockdown.
Patterson’s defence lawyer, Colin Mandy, SC, told a jury in Morwell that foraging was a common hobby in Europe that had become more popular during the pandemic.
Photos recovered from an old SD card found by the police at Patterson’s home demonstrated “categorically” and “without question” that the mother of two was interested in wild mushrooms at that time.
One of the images shows Patterson’s daughter on a scooter alongside her brother during a walk with their mother in 2020.
“This is evidence and confirmation that Erin Patterson had an interest in mushrooms at the same time [as mycologist Dr] Tom May says that interest in mushrooms was [becoming] popular. [Her children] were there with her that day,” Mandy said.
Mandy said Patterson’s son had provided evidence that he remembered going for walks with his mother and looking at mushrooms in the botanic gardens in Korumburra.
“We say these photos demonstrate to you that when people are on walks like that, their kids often go and do their own thing,” Mandy said.
He said it was possible the kids did not notice or remember Patterson picking the mushrooms at the time, and that as years rolled on, and the children were back at school, she might have gone on a walk by herself and picked wild mushrooms.
“Erin loved mushrooms. Not only the wild mushrooms. Also eating them. There’s evidence of that. It’s not made up. She told people that,” Mandy said.
He reminded the jury that Patterson’s online friend Jenny Hay had told the court the 50-year-old had shared her love for mushrooms with the group. He said Patterson had tried field and horse mushrooms she had found.
“They were OK to eat. Tasted better. More flavourful,” Mandy said.
Mandy said he was not suggesting that Patterson was “she was out in the forest each day scrambling around looking for mushrooms,” adding that it happened a few times each season.
He said death cap mushrooms were notorious for their toxicity, and so anyone picking wild mushrooms would likely come to hear about them at some stage. He then noted Patterson had been interested to know if they grew in South Gippsland.
“So, on the 28th May 2022, there is little doubt that it was Erin Patterson looking up that very question on the Cooler Master computer,” Mandy said. “There is no argument from us that you should find that it was someone else.”
12.03pm
Death caps and the comfort of absence
By
The jury that will decide the fate of Erin Patterson is being offered an alternative interpretation of her online activities, particularly her brief foray into the world of iNaturalist.
Colin Mandy, SC, painted a picture of an occasional forager checking to see if deadly death cap mushrooms were present in her local area, a search on May 28, 2022, that would have, at the time, yielded comforting news: no confirmed sightings.
“There’s a number of possibilities open on this evidence. Including the possibility that Erin was not previously familiar with iNaturalist,” Mandy said.
He said the reason for that interaction was to make sure that death cap mushrooms did not grow in South Gippsland and reminded the jury of Dr Tom May’s evidence that there were no sightings of death caps in Gippsland at that time.
“What would have stayed with her was the knowledge that there were no death cap mushrooms in Gippsland as a result of a search that she did,” Mandy said.
He said that for an occasional forager that had become aware of death cap mushrooms, “you would think that would be comforting information”.
Mandy said a user might have wondered what they looked like, and gone to an observation page about death caps in Moorabbin. He said this interaction was out of curiosity, just minutes before ordering dinner.
“This was not a person carefully studying this information. Doing research about it. This was not a deep and abiding interest in this subject matter. It was a passing attention,” Mandy said.
Mandy said thousands of varieties of mushrooms grow in Victoria and not all of them have been identified and not all have been the subjects of a post. He said new varieties are identified all the time.
“In terms of death cap mushrooms in South Gippsland, they have only been observed twice ever as I stand here right now. Once by Christine McKenzie and one by Tom May as far as iNaturalist is concerned,” Mandy said.
He said those two people were very familiar with death cap mushrooms.
“You might think remarkably, extraordinarily, Erin Patterson observed and acted on the only sightings of death cap mushrooms ever in South Gippsland, that’s [the Crown’s] case,” Mandy said.
“Like she was sitting there waiting for them ... Refresh. Still not there. Refresh. Still not there.“
Mandy said there was not one scrap of evidence that Patterson saw those posts. He questioned how familiar Patterson may have been with iNaturalist when she had spent only a few minutes on the site 14 months before the lunch.
“The simpler explanation, as it’s often the case, is the more likely one,” Mandy said.
12.14pm
‘A little spat’ not cold blood: Defence talk about Gail’s 70th birthday party
By
Colin Mandy, SC, is returning to the portrait of the enduring family love the Patterson family shared even after the separation of Erin and Simon Patterson.
In 2022, his client shared a “good and strong” relationship with her estranged husband and a “loving relationship” with her in-laws, Don and Gail Patterson.
Sometimes that enduring love was tested, he said, and in October that year, there was a misunderstanding about Gail Patterson’s 70th birthday party. Nonetheless, he told the court that the misunderstanding was resolved, and “that’s important”.
Mandy said that following a heated conversation with Simon about the 70th birthday, his client had made the first move to apologise for the way it unfolded.
He described the argument as “a little spat” over one day.
“Totally inconsistent with the way a cold-blooded calculating person would behave. She is the one going in and saying sorry. He is responding, yeah, I know, me too,” Mandy said.
Mandy said Don Patterson had contacted his client to tell her it was an oversight, and she was not being isolated.
She went to the party “all resolved”, he said.
Erin Patterson murder trial LIVE updates: Defence lawyer Colin Mandy tells jury accused wanted to be close to in-laws; may have reacted differently to consuming to poison
Patterson’s barrister is expected to continue delivering his closing address in Morwell’s courtroom four on Thursday, after the judge warned jurors to expect a long direction from the bench next week.www.theage.com.au
@drsleuth Thx for your link w quotes of the closing argument by defense.
First.
"“Erin loved mushrooms. Not only the wild mushrooms. Also eating them. There’s evidence of that. It’s not made up. She told people that,” Mandy said."
(bbm)
His seeming logic: since there's evd. (IDR exactly what) that EP said that she loved mushrooms, then that's true.
This ^ despite def. conceding that EP gave multiple false stmts to multiple ppl, including fam & LE over an extended post-lunch period. Didn't def use the specific word "lied" about those stmts?
Second.
Are EP's feelings (whether love, like, dislike, hate or indifference, whatever) about mushrooms relevant in some way? Any way?
If by deliberately* placing DC mushrooms into the BWs & serving them to her guests, EP intended to cause serious harm,* and if ingesting BW caused three deaths, EP's "love" of mushrooms seems irrelevant to Q of her guilt imo.
If a def't. loved cricket - playing cricket, watching her kids' cricket games, watching prof. cricket in person & TV, even carving cricket bats from the choicest white willow (Salix alba var. caerulea) - and def't used a cricket bat to bludgeon three ppl to death, is def't's "love" of cricket somehow exculpatory? Relevant? IDTS, but ICBWrong.
________________________
* I've forgotten the exact magic words of VIC crim statute.
Last edited:
I’m vegetarian and one time, I made and served a mushroom Wellington to my in-laws.
(Everyone was totally fine!)
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MaxDecimus13
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I'm going to disagree with this to a point. I often find it unconvincing when people say 'if you're innocent, you'd have acted this way,' or even the ones about how they present on the stand, as if being combatative or arrogant is an indicator of guilt.
There was an example my wife was certain about, and it was if she was innocent she'd have been at the hospital every day checking on them. I know I wouldn't have been. I'd have felt guilty/embarrassed and been worried that existing family members might accuse me ot even get angry with me.
During this trial, I've tried to consider two things when judging the evidence:
1) being unlikeable doesn't make someone guilty of murder
2) if we found out this person was definitely innocent, how would we explain it
Where Colin Mandy's argument falls down is that just because people react differently it doesn't mean you can dismiss actions altogether.
Erin's reactions to finding out that her and children's lives were in danger was bizarre. On its own, it could possibly be explained, but it also is a piece of circumstantial evidence that fits into a much wider array of circumstantial evidence. When there is substantial suspicion that her and her children didn't eat the meal, it is definitely something to consider.
HoneyBunch66
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It was her son said that they were 15cm white plates. He called them dinner plates but that's far too small. Surely she wouldn't have left out the DC contaminated plates for him to potentially touch anyway
When I was reading each point Mandy has raised I wondered whether he actually believed his arguments were super relevant. They seem rather weak to me and I wonder whether it’s a valid defence strategy to bring up almost any thing that’s vaguely relevant. So plant a field full of seeds to of doubt in the hope that one or two couple will sprout? I don’t know much about his role as defence but he seems to be about throwing absolutely anything at the jury in the hope something will stick.
Yes, the son's testimony was that the white plates were 15cm in diameter. That happens to be the exact dimensions of the side plates in my set. One would think the lunch plates to fit a wellington would have been significantly larger (a regular dinner plate is 25cm) and I gather those would have been cleared long before Simon brought the kids back from the movies.
Agree, and I don’t think people who are on trial for murder, can be considered a representative sample of “people who act like you’d expect”. It requires a good prospect there’s enough evidence to be charged for a serious crime like murder and go to trial. It’s not the everyday for most of us. People who commit serious crimes maybe aren’t the ones that would act like the average person …?
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