Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[SouthAussie]

There are a few issues with this. Firstly, this was allegedly a planned murder over the course of months. You can be silently seething but how does this fit in with not considering something so obvious over the course of months?

I personally think what @Mirabel091 posted upthread has some real potential validity.


"On impulsiveness, let's not forget the action of searching out and drying Death Caps could be made independently from the decision to use them in a meal.
It's just that, if you've kept the results of your little experiment, maybe not really knowing what else to do with them at the time - you have a much more potent weapon on hand to season dinner with when you snap."


Maybe it wasn't planned over months and months. Maybe there were lurking thoughts of getting rid of Simon - alleged previous nightshade poisonings come to mind - and the death caps were another weapon in the arsenal, in case she was 'brave' enough to use them.

Her biggest problem being (in this regard) that she was having difficulty getting Simon to eat or drink with her since his near fatal hospital episode.

imo

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I think there’s something wrong with her awareness of others and their responses. I think she genuinely thought she’d get away with it.

She is a socially isolated, socially awkward (based on reports of her testimony) separated woman in a small town. I think she has what my kids call “main character syndrome” where she neglects to consider others as important or as smart as she is and she expected the guests and people in their orbit to behave in a particular way after the dinner.

My impression is that she imagined them dying - in separate homes - less dramatically and with no one working out it was death cap toxin related. As far as she knew there was no toxin test for death caps, cultures of stools or tests on the food itself would have been negative for pathogens and the deaths would have been mysterious but no cause attributed. Add in her own “symptoms” as well and she would thought she was in the clear.

Instead, medical staff were onto it very quickly and she panicked, with no plan B. As she said in her testimony (about the need to go home to supposedly sort out the ballet bag etc) she had difficulty changing course “like a big ship turning around”.

I can understand why some people don't think she set out to deliberately commit murder, due to how could she possibly have thought that she was going to get away with it. I get that. But consider how many cases there are where it's hard to fathom how the perpetrator possibly thought they could get away with it. Look at the Gerald Baden Clay case for instance. What about the Chris Watts case? These people are psychopaths and don't think like you and me. Yes, Erin is undoubtedly intelligent, but she read Agatha Christie novels and maybe fiction just overlapped reality for her?

 

[SouthAussie]

If guilty of murder, I don't think it was spur of the moment obviously but it may not have been planned over months and months either. ..... (RSBM) .....

The Facebook messages do paint a picture, and I think Mandy calling it a 'spat' that resolved itself is interesting in light of the evidence of Gail not wanting to read Erin's messages anymore. I think the resentment was always simmering until it was boiling IMO JMO

I wonder how things went (for Erin) at Gail's 70th birthday party. The party that Erin wasn't invited to, until she guilted Simon into inviting her.

imo

 

[CityKid]

And why? Why did she proceed without SP there? Because she knew he would come later. (Perhaps she expected that she could invite him in for dinner with the children.

And he could have the BW she effortfully made for him while the children -- who conveniently don't like mushrooms -- could eat cubed beef, and Erin would sit out, bring that she was overfull on an unknown amount if BW and a outrageous overserve of cake.

Those accidentally pulverized DCs would hit his vulnerable insides rather hard, I'd imagine, little time to summon ambulances for anyone.

JMO

MOO And if he'd been sickened, he might not have felt well enough to implore the others to get to hospital.

 

[Kemug]

My counterpoint to that question is..."Why would anyone commit murder if they didn't think they were going to get away with it?"

I have a fuzzy memory from some years back, when a woman somewhere in Europe killed the man who had raped and murdered her daughter. Maybe others remember more than I do? But anyway, I don't believe she thought she would get away with it, and she didn't care. I can totally understand that.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I personally think what @Mirabel091 posted upthread has some real potential validity.


"On impulsiveness, let's not forget the action of searching out and drying Death Caps could be made independently from the decision to use them in a meal.
It's just that, if you've kept the results of your little experiment, maybe not really knowing what else to do with them at the time - you have a much more potent weapon on hand to season dinner with when you snap."


Maybe it wasn't planned over months and months. Maybe there were lurking thoughts of getting rid of Simon - alleged previous nightshade poisonings come to mind - and the death caps were another weapon in the arsenal, in case she was 'brave' enough to use them.

Her biggest problem being (in this regard) that she was having difficulty getting Simon to eat or drink with her since his near fatal hospital episode.

imo

On impulsiveness, let's not forget the action of searching out and drying Death Caps could be made independently from the decision to use them in a meal

For her to have gone to the trouble of searching and foraging for Death Caps and buying a food dehydrator and then drying them, she must have made the decision that she was going to put those Death Caps in a meal IMO.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

re: gastric sleeve

Was surprised the appointment evidence from Enrich Clinic didn’t indicate “medical or aesthetic” reason for appointment.
And, if it was liposuction, or exploring options … why did she initially say gastric sleeve/bypass in evidence?
Surely a broad reason “explore weight loss options” would have been a wiser choice of words. But as liars know/think, a detailed (or embarrassing) is lie likely believable.

As Erin is a self identified pedant, We would expect her to be precise … but we know that when she lies, she is anything but pedantic until she’s caught.

IMO … her strategy when confronted with a lie, is using pedantry to escape. It probably has worked her whole life because it’s annoying and no one has time for her petty word play. But when it’s murder … it’s not going to be so easy and the jury can’t walk away.

The embarrassing things to escape lies:
Bulimia (still Mandy called her bulimia an “embarrassing habit”)
Roadside diarrhea and tissue clean up
Gastric bypass
Children’s medical problems
Her own disappointing childhood
Etc

And if she did starting carrying a “prop” bible to court, as a juror I would be thinking “Nice try lady & too late, God is not going to help you now.” Though I can see her training to be a prison pastor …

 

[Jake18]

Yes, Erin is undoubtedly intelligent, but she read Agatha Christie novels and maybe fiction just overlapped reality for her?

I think this is a good perspective. For whatever reason, (I think also social differences and social isolation) Erin lost touch with reality. She lost sight of how real people react and behave and she somehow thought what she did would do below the radar

 

[CityKid]

Grandmother Egyptian

Egyptian ethnically, or born in Egypt when it was occupied by England? Historically, occupiers/colonizers have not adopted the ways of the natives of the areas they occupy/colonize.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I wonder how things went (for Erin) at Gail's 70th birthday party. The party that Erin wasn't invited to, until she guilted Simon into inviting her.

imo

I was curious about the date of this party, and where it fit in the timeline. If something at this party gave her the idea or was the trigger …. Or if she had wanted to use DC in a cake for the party but decided too risky.

Was date revealed in court? (Looked for her DOB in tributes online but didn’t find)

 

[SouthAussie]

For her to have gone to the trouble of searching and foraging for Death Caps and buying a food dehydrator and then drying them, she must have made the decision that she was going to put those Death Caps in a meal IMO.

What I mean is that she may have had no particular direction when she picked them and dried them. Just that she might use them in the future. Drying them would ensure longevity.

She might have thought she would make Simon some brownies, but then how would she be able to stop the kids from eating them at his house. So she devised another scheme much later - when things still hadn't improved (to her satisfaction) with Simon or her in-laws.

imo

 

[Moll]

Her maiden name was Keminer, which is Ashkenazi

I'm sorry, I'm missing your point. What possible difference could it make if her grandmother was foreign-born?

Erin grew up speaking English. Her mother was a professor of English. For all we know, her grandmother was fluent in English herself.

(Re replies above to BreakingNews' comments that EP's grandmother was born in Egypt.)

Yes: my father (contemporary with EP's grandmother) was born in India when it was under British rule, but it did not affect his English or that of his children, let alone his grandchildren! 'Scutter', presumably her husband's name, is an old English name, apparently, not that I have ever come across it.
But this is a complete red herring.

 

[Tortoise]

I've missed the last few days or so, since prosecution closing argument. Could someone kindly tell me where we are up to now please? Has defence finished theirs, judge delivered his summing up yet, is the jury ready to deliberate?

 

[MrJ]

I've missed the last few days or so, since prosecution closing argument. Could someone kindly tell me where we are up to now please? Has defence finished theirs, judge delivered his summing up yet, is the jury ready to deliberate?

Defence has finished their closing. Judge instructions beginning on Tuesday, finishing maybe Thursday, then the jury gets sequestered to deliberate. All aproximate

 

[Tortoise]

Thank you very much @MrJ

 

[SouthAussie]

I was curious about the date of this party, and where it fit in the timeline. If something at this party gave her the idea or was the trigger …. Or if she had wanted to use DC in a cake for the party but decided too risky.

Was date revealed in court? (Looked for her DOB in tributes online but didn’t find)

The only timeline that I have seen published is ...... There had also been the issue, on October 16, 2022, of what Erin Patterson described as an “afterthought” invite to Gail Patterson’s 70th birthday lunch at the Top Pub in Korumburra, and Simon describing her decision not to go as “ridiculous”.

Then there were more difficulties after that ..... Simon Patterson described an exchange between Erin and his parents in a group chat in December 2022 as “extremely aggressive”, prompting him to consider getting a mediator to assist with communication over child support payments.

What does it say about Erin Patterson's relationship with Simon and his family? - South Gippsland Sentinel Times

THE relationships between Erin Patterson, her estranged husband Simon, and her in-laws, Don and Gail Patterson, have been an on-going feature of the 23-day ‘mushroom murder’ trial in the Supreme Court at Morwell. Last Friday, May 30, some...

www.sgst.com.au

 

[CityKid]

What I basically mean is that I'm wondering if there are some jurors who will be swayed by Colin Mandy's closing statements. However, if it is accurate from reports that the jury members looked 'bored' or 'exasperated', perhaps not. But I guess we'll never know. Appeals to emotion and 'why would Erin deprive her children of their grandparents' could work on one or two. I hope not and that they look at the full picture though.

I've sat on four juries (not in Australia) and in my experience, there's usually one or two jurists who have some sort of doubt, or something they want clarity on. We'll never know why a parent would deprive their children of their grandparents, but statistically homicides by family members are not rare. Sometimes other jurists agreeing that it's unthinkable or inexplicable, yet not uncommon, may be enough to make a doubtful juror come around. MOO

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

History is full of murders where it was obvious the finger would be pointed at a spouse/sibling/parent etc and even when the evidence is utterly compelling they’ve still managed to escape justice.

 

[MrJ]

History is full of murders where it was obvious the finger would be pointed at a spouse/sibling/parent and even when the evidence is utterly compelling they’ve still managed to escape justice.

I hope that the fact this is a triple (alleged deliberate) poisoning and alleged attempted murder of a fourth lunch guest won't be lost on jurors

 

[Kemug]

It doesn't usually end well when you tell lies to cover your lies. Conciousness of guilt lies, imo.
She had me at individual BW serves. I have not changed my mind after that.
May justice for the victims and their families be swift.

This reminds me of "The Pirates of Penzance" - "Our revenge shall be swift and terrible!" Sorry, couldn't help myself!