Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[Woolly]

I agree. I think she fully expected to get away with it.

BUT I think she also expected to come under some scrutiny. Just not this much. I don’t think she expected them to figure out that death caps were used and be able to trace so many of her movements.

I think she expected they would suspect that something was off about the meal, but that they wouldn’t be able to identify what it was or prove that she was behind it. Whatever questions came her way, she was confident that she could successfully explain them away.

I imagine she has a history of “winning” arguments by being so pedantic and lying so obviously that whoever she’s arguing with realizes it’s not worth their time and just gives up. Like, “Fine, Erin. You win.” And then she sees that as having tricked them with her superior brain.

So I think she was confident that she could do it here as well.

JMO

 

[SilentHill]

Some gymnastics levels of reaching required to find her not guilty IMO

 

[BreakingNews]

I can understand why some people don't think she set out to deliberately commit murder, due to how could she possibly have thought that she was going to get away with it. I get that. But consider how many cases there are where it's hard to fathom how the perpetrator possibly thought they could get away with it. Look at the Gerald Baden Clay case for instance. What about the Chris Watts case? These people are psychopaths and don't think like you and me. Yes, Erin is undoubtedly intelligent, but she read Agatha Christie novels and maybe fiction just overlapped reality for her?

Please where is a link that Baden Clay is a psychopath. I don't recall that diagnosis, except in rumour.

 

[Monstradamus]

I agree. I think she fully expected to get away with it.

BUT I think she also expected to come under some scrutiny. Just not this much. I don’t think she expected them to figure out that death caps were used and be able to trace so many of her movements.

I think she expected they would suspect that something was off about the meal, but that they wouldn’t be able to identify what it was or prove that she was behind it. Whatever questions came her way, she was confident that she could successfully explain them away.

I imagine she has a history of “winning” arguments by being so pedantic and lying so obviously that whoever she’s arguing with realizes it’s not worth their time and just gives up. Like, “Fine, Erin. You win.” And then she sees that as having tricked them with her superior brain.

So I think she was confident that she could do it here as well.

JMO

Just as well health authorities were onto it so quickly. I don't think she suspected that would happen, imo.

 

[Monstradamus]

In the Erin Patterson puzzle, the pieces are coming together

In the triple-murder trial's eighth week, the prosecution and defence used an avalanche of puzzle pieces to present two contrasting pictures to the jury.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Monstradamus]

I didn't see that as arrogance. She was just making a statement. I probably would have said the same if I lived in a house. An apartment assumes you are surrounded closely by others. No so much a house. So in a house you might not have the support systems you might have in an apartment block. JMO

But it's actually not a house. It's a Townhouse, adjoining another Townhouse, similar to a Duplex. Definitely not called a house (here in Australia) More word salad from EP, imo

 

[Monstradamus]

Please where is a link that Baden Clay is a psychopath. I don't recall that diagnosis, except in rumour.

@BreakingNews this Dr certainly thinks so.

Trail of ruin ... how Gerard Baden-Clay changed the lives of women

The convicted wife killer was like a classic psychopath who 'charms, manipulates, and ruthlessly ploughs their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations, and empty wallets'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[BreakingNews]

I've sat on four juries (not in Australia) and in my experience, there's usually one or two jurists who have some sort of doubt, or something they want clarity on. We'll never know why a parent would deprive their children of their grandparents, but statistically homicides by family members are not rare. Sometimes other jurists agreeing that it's unthinkable or inexplicable, yet not uncommon, may be enough to make a doubtful juror come around. MOO

Jury service is an education in group dynamics, hey? Always has been my experience that someone in doubt simply because they can't believe someone is capable of such things is usually reminded that it is the facts and the law that has to be followed. Not gut feelings.

 

[mamamama9873]

Rsbm

I agree. And not only did she add them, she blitzed them first. (Based on the evidence that death cap dna was found in the leftovers, but no visible death cap pieces.)

Leaving aside that I can’t think of any innocent reason to do that, the real point is that that contradicts her account of how the mushrooms came to be added (rehydrated and chopped). If she were innocent, why would she not say she had blitzed them?

I also think this is a critical piece of information that clearly points to guilt. IMO

 

[Monstradamus]

I also think this is a critical piece of information that clearly points to guilt. IMO

Gotta love that Thermomix. Comes in very handy, imo.

 

[BreakingNews]

When I was growing up on a farm, my mother and I often went looking for mushrooms, and yes that was exactly what we called it! There was really no doubt of what was a mushroom. There were certainly no coloured versions, green, yellow, blue, whatever. A mushroom was white. The gills were pink, changing to brown as they grew and aged. Plus, what I don't recall being mentioned here, they smelled very strongly of mushrooms.

I think it's like most things, fresh is best. Oh the smell of fresh field mushrooms picked from a paddock!

 

[BreakingNews]

Remember that Colin Mandy is claiming Erin's innocence. She couldn't possibly have any reason to kill her beloved family the she loved so dearly.

Agree. However it's up to the prosecution to prove her guilt, not the defence to prove her innocence. I think that's why Mandy pulled holes in questions not asked by the prosecution. He, in effect said the prosecution didn't prove her guilt. MOO

 

[LinasK]

No disrespect but why are the plates still discussed? Heather noticed, she mentioned it to Ian who remembered. That’s it.

Innocent: she gave her guests matching plates, a standard set of 4 in AU. She took a presentable plate

The difference in plate color is a subtle cue- it's obvious to her, like marking a pastry would have been. not obvious to 4 unsuspecting people until it's hindsight and put together. We all see it glaringly, Heather figured it out as she was dying. Simon knew better than to have lunch at her house- none of the rest did.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

I feel like if Erin is found guilty, we might see some actual tears... for the first time, possibly.... ever.

I'm not so certain of that. I feel she'll be stony faced, and maybe feel slighted and vengeful. The tears will come later though, unless of course she really doesn't feel the usual human emotions the rest of us do. You know, remorse, empathy etc.

 

[BreakingNews]

Rsbm

I agree. And not only did she add them, she blitzed them first. (Based on the evidence that death cap dna was found in the leftovers, but no visible death cap pieces.)

Leaving aside that I can’t think of any innocent reason to do that, the real point is that that contradicts her account of how the mushrooms came to be added (rehydrated and chopped). If she were innocent, why would she not say she had blitzed them?

Please correct me if I am wrong. Didn't she say the mixture was too moist, and that is why she added dried mushrooms. MOO

 

[Monstradamus]

I'm not so certain of that. I feel she'll be stony faced, and maybe feel slighted and vengeful. The tears will come later though, unless of course she really doesn't feel the usual human emotions the rest of us do. You know, remorse, empathy etc.

She's making notes for her Appeal already, imo.

 

[mamamama9873]

But it's actually not a house. It's a Townhouse, adjoining another Townhouse, similar to a Duplex. Definitely not called a house (here in Australia) More word salad from EP, imo

Exactly, if she is so pendantic why didn’t she say “It’s not an apartment, it’s a townhouse”

Given this context, it certainly comes across arrogant to say “it’s not an apartment, it’s a house”

And to be held up and even focus on things like this in a murder trial for 3 beautiful people that lost their lives is just mind boggling. Fits fine into the picture that Erin painted from afar though - all about her, no thought for the victims and their families IMO

 

[HoneyBunOne]

She's making notes for her Appeal already, imo.

Or a grocery list.

• mushrooms
• nail file
• more mushrooms
• cake big enough to fit a nail file
• marked down beef

 

[BreakingNews]

@BreakingNews this Dr certainly thinks so.

Trail of ruin ... how Gerard Baden-Clay changed the lives of women

The convicted wife killer was like a classic psychopath who 'charms, manipulates, and ruthlessly ploughs their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations, and empty wallets'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

With respect, this doctor only said he behaved like a psychopath. That is very different from GC having been diagnosed as a psychopath. That was my point. Rumours vs facts

 

[LinasK]

So in the absence of a video showing a murderer committing a crime, how does a jury decide whether someone is guilty or not? Evidence, testimony, statements, common sense, all of which can be interpreted differently by different individuals. It's not so black and white.

Also - I am finally caught up on this thread - hard, as I am in the US and always a day behind, but thank you, thank you, thank you to all the posters who post updates from the trial.

I think the Prosecution's closing was stellar overall - though do agree some of the points of ambiguity around whether vomiting could expel toxins and that the meat given to the children could not have been the one from the BWs could have been made more explicit. However, if the jury disbelieves Erin's accounts about vomiting at all and that they ate that meat given her reluctance to bring the children to the hospital, it won't really matter.

I do think the Defense's strongest arguments lie in whether her actions after the fact (which are pretty damning) truly are those of a cold, calculating murderer or just someone who panicked, because that sort of question comes up all the time here at Websleuths - would they have been that stupid to have done/not done X, Y, and Z if they really wanted to get away with murder?

My counterpoint to that question is..."Why would anyone commit murder if they didn't think they were going to get away with it?"

In my opinion and experience of following these cases of premeditated murder, I never think it's stupidity that gets murderers caught - it's arrogance. They truly believe that their carefully (at least in their minds) prepared lies will be believed hook, line, and sinker by "dumb cops" that certainly couldn't be smarter than they are. And if they have any NPD/sociopathic tendencies, it's an inability to anticipate the reactions and actions of people with real emotions, empathy, and caring for others, especially those that they have long discarded and that have outlived their usefulness to them. A few examples of the top of my head:

Patrick Frazee - killed his girlfriend Kelsey Berreth and "Frazee expressed surprise in the media's interest in the case" in conversations with one of his friends. He also said "no body, no crime."

Barry Morphew - rolled up to the staged scene of his wife's mountain bike, shaking his head and said "Lion?", thinking that everyone would buy his story that a mountain lion got his wife, dragged her away, and that would be that, LE shrugs, says ain't that a shame and that's that. (Although still waiting for justice in that one!)

If there was any panic in Erin's actions, it was surprise that death caps were suspected so quickly, how concerned and insistent doctors were about making sure Erin and her children were not going to die, and the lengths that doctors and public health officials were willing to go to ensure that no other people would fall ill and/or die from these mushrooms. She may truly have believed that they would think, "Oh well, it's her problem if she dies. And oh, some old people died from gastro, maybe it was mushrooms, maybe it wasn't, we can't seem to find where they came from, such bad luck, tsk tsk" and that was that. But unfortunately for her, that's not how it works.

By the way, Barry Morphew was just re-arrested today in Arizona.