Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[MrJ]

VERY interested in how Justice Beale will instruct the jury in regards to statements from witnesses and EP’s disagreements with them not to mention her own numerous lies

 

[mamamama9873]

VERY interested in how Justice Beale will instruct the jury in regards to statements from witnesses and EP’s disagreements with them not to mention her own numerous lies

Same.
I feel that her testimony can be disregarded.

She (and her lawyer, whom she pays good money to) is the only one that said:
- She loved the in-laws and relatives
- She was a mushroom forager
- She went on a road side poop stop
- She had bulimia
- She vomited after the meal
- She only had mismatched plates
- She had weight loss surgery coming up that she was embarrassed about
- She had to swap phones because her son dropped the other one in the mud

I’m sure I’ve forgotten some points. Fact is that she is the only one that stated this and not one witness backs this up. There were no defence witnesses besides herself to testify any of these points. The case is very clear IMO.

 

[Monstradamus]

VERY interested in how Justice Beale will instruct the jury in regards to statements from witnesses and EP’s disagreements with them not to mention her own numerous lies

Yes, it must be voluminous Instructions if he thinks it will take 2 days or more. I've never heard a Judge Instruct the Jury before. I wonder if he specifically points to any discrepancies in the Prosecution and/or Defence's case?

 

[MrJ]

I wonder how he can say that and furthermore if the defence can object to for example instructions of disregarding Erin’s versions of events?

 

[mamamama9873]

I wonder how he can say that and furthermore if the defence can object to for example instructions of disregarding Erin’s versions of events?

I don’t believe the lawyers can object to the judge’s instructions IMO

 

[Jake18]

I don’t believe the lawyers can object to the judge’s instructions IMO

But Mandy will be monitoring closely to see if there’s anything he could use for appeal, presumably (if she’s found guilty).

 

[Warshawski]

Would be interesting to hear from her sibling.

I’ve often wondered how her sister would describe their childhood / upbringing.

 

[katydid23]

Great point! She hears her in laws are sick in hospital and doesn’t go near it. She had only seen her in laws the day before and they were fine, then she hears they were ill enough to be in hospital. Wasn’t this from Simon on the phone and he said she didn’t ask about their welfare? If she loved them, and if there was the close bond the defence is claiming, wouldn’t she want to ask more questions or find out more? If she didn’t want to ask Simon because their relationship was a bit frosty, why didn’t she call Simon’s sister, or even Gail maybe? I heard Don and Gail were in hospital… Or you could just call the hospital ask about their condition. If you call and say your name is Erin Patterson and your mother and father in law, Don and Gail Patterson are in hospital, you could probably get further info. But she didn’t want to go near this whole issue. She wasn’t concerned about their welfare. And as the prosecution has argued, she was aware of what had made them ill enough to be hospitalised.

And her excuse was the privacy invasion of medical info laws. She claimed the Doctors couldn't tell her anything.

But she signed in with the same last name as 2 of the victims, identifying as the daughter-in-law and as the chef of the meal they ate. So I doubt the doctors denied her information about the lunch guest's conditions.

In fact, the hospital was begging her to stay and they explained the medical danger she and her kids were facing.

 

[Monstradamus]

And her excuse was the privacy invasion of medical info laws. She claimed the Doctors couldn't tell her anything.

But she signed in with the same last name as 2 of the victims, identifying as the daughter-in-law and as the chef of the meal they ate. So I doubt the doctors denied her information about the lunch guest's conditions.

In fact, the hospital was begging her to stay and they explained the medical danger she and her kids were facing.

She probably could have asked the question on the family group chat?

 

[Warshawski]

Thanks for this.

If we agree that the DC was her undoing, what did she honestly think would happen if they didn't detect it.

The circumstances would still be suspicious
The meal would be the main culprit
There would obviously be a police investigation
Many people would think she murdered them
Simon and any remaining family would no doubt be angry and suspect her

Again, I'm not saying she definitely didn't do it and overlook these things, I just don't think it is a very plausible thing to assume.

agreed - but suspicion, investigation etc mean nothing in the Big Scheme it’s Proof that matters.
Erin was pretty sure there was none, as she’d powered the DC, the toxin only shows in body for 48 hrs and (as far as she was aware) there were no forensic toxicology tests to detect it in food.

IMO she was emboldened by no trace back to her with Simon’s lie threatening illnesses; she had tested / confirmed the inability of people to Taste powdered mushrooms in food by putting it in the Brownies of her mushroom hating kids - so she was all set to go.

 

[katydid23]

If you're convinced of guilt you'll see it everywhere.

The reality is that there are gaping issues in this case that are not easily dismissed. Before I get hounded, I'd say there are gaping issues with both her innocence and her guilt.

People convinced of her guilt skirt over some huge problems, like expecting her not to realise she couldn't kill 4/5 people and pass it off as an accident. The fact there was no gain for Erin, just likely more difficulties.

After following murder cases here for many years, it is easy for me to dismiss some of these issues.

In my experience ,with many of these family annihilators, they literally cannot help themselves. Their compulsion/obsession with annihilating their spouse or parents or even children is so powerfully overwhelming they JUST DO IT. How can any of it be explained?

How can you or I, who are somewhat in our right minds, even hope to comprehend what she was thinking?

Sure, looking at it rationally, what a stupid unbelievably moronic decision on her part. But if she does happen to be suffering from delusional, sociopathic or psychopathic or any type of odd cluster, then it would make sense to her twisted irrational mind. IMO

Then you consider what the prosecution has proven and what the jury doesnt have access to. They don't have the evidence of Simon's illness

I think some of them may have known she was originally facing charges for attempted murder of Simon. I'm sure they are not supposed to take it into account but you cannot unsee something like that.

and they haven't proven that Erin couldn't have got as sick as them or that bulimia wouldn't have worked.

I think they will discuss it as a group. I think they will take note of the fact that she tried to act like she was sick. If she accidentally fed them death caps then why did she start 'acting sick' on the first day? I think that will be noticed .

The prosecution did take the time to explain that there is no evidence that she did actually throw up that afternoon. But they also explained that even if so, it would have been too late to make a big impact because powdered toxins enter the bloodstream almost immediately.

Don't forget, we're talking reasonable doubt,

Yes, 'reasonable doubt' not 'beyond a shadow of doubt.' Is it 'reasonable' that she accidentally picked death caps, turned them into powder, saved them for months and then randomly served them to her in-laws that she was beefing with, the only time the 4 of ever ate there, and neither she, her kids or her dog accidentally consumed any?

not whether they think she is innocent.

If they think she is innocent, she walks. If they don't think she is innocent, she is staying where she is.

 

[katydid23]

I think the prosecution really missed a beat when Erin was talking about eating the cake that led to her bulimia.

They should have said 'how do you know it was 3/4 and not 1/3, 1/4 or 1/2, did you have a ruler?'

If there is even one perceptive juror they may make that point themselves. lol

 

[Annalize]

She said the mixture was too bland, so she added some pungent dried mushrooms from the Tupperware, sprinkling some water on them first to rehydrate them.

Storing any dried mushrooms in a porous, plastic Tupperware container is careless. Storing Death Cap in a porous container?? Cooking death cap in your family oven on oven trays? Dehydrating DC in an appliance that remains in the house with residue? Serving DC from your kitchen bench and dining room? Having leftovers in your refrigerator, rubbish bin, pantry? Even gathering up cutlery, crockery, leftovers, dehydrator, oven trays, tea towels, dishcloths etc would not guarantee that her children would not be on close proximity to toxic residue. Whatever led to this tragic event, those children's safety has not been a high priority at all, in my opinion.

 

[katydid23]

I can understand why some people don't think she set out to deliberately commit murder, due to how could she possibly have thought that she was going to get away with it. I get that. But consider how many cases there are where it's hard to fathom how the perpetrator possibly thought they could get away with it. Look at the Gerald Baden Clay case for instance. What about the Chris Watts case? These people are psychopaths and don't think like you and me. Yes, Erin is undoubtedly intelligent, but she read Agatha Christie novels and maybe fiction just overlapped reality for her?

EXACTLY. Mark Redwine killing his son Dylan, while Dylan was on visitation w/ estranged father. How Did Mark possibly think he could get away with it by just claiming his 12 yr old son went to play with friends and never returned?

And Leticia Stauch put her 11 yr old step son in a suitcase and dumped him under a bridge. He was last known to be at home with her. How did she think she'd get away with it?

Sick, twisted people just DO IT and then scramble and try to figure it out.

 

[katydid23]

Something that I've found really interesting throughout this trial is that Erin has said nothing that hints at any kind of remorse. Whether accident or intentional, three people who she claimed to love died because of her, another almost died and is going to have ongoing health concerns due to his liver transplant.

Wouldn't you at least pretend that you cared?
I don't think Erin's behaviour is going to be lost on the good judge when it comes to sentencing.

I know what you mean.

Her defense is basically OOPS MY BAD---accidentally poisoned my 3 in-laws.

But when she took the stand, instead of showing remorse and asking for mercy, she did the opposite.

She never really admitted to anything or apologised for anything. Her attorney says she admits to foraging and accidentally serving death caps.

But she never really took accountability. She masked that possibility in 'maybe it was the Asian mushrooms' ----maybe I added wild mushrooms in accidentally but don't really know....

Nowhere did she show sorrow or grief or remorse for such an egregious mistake.

 

[katydid23]

I think what may be happening (which is causing some of your doubt) is that you’re viewing Erin through the lense of being a rationale, intelligent and normal person. Therefore, concluding that some of her behaviors and motives don’t make sense, which leads you to have some level of reasonable doubt.

If you’ve known anyone with NPD, (which IMO, I’m quite certain that Erin has), you’ll know that a lot of their thoughts, actions and behaviors don’t make much sense to the rest of us.

I know someone with NPD and see a lot of commonality between Erin and this person. They are both slighted extremely easily, need to feel like a victim, search for sympathy and attention (e.g., made up cancer diagnosis), and most importantly become quite revengeful when they feel their ego has been hurt. Simon’s family “hurt” Erin in the worst way you could possibly hurt someone with NPD - depriving them of attention and making them feel like they don’t matter anymore, among other things.

It wasn’t uncommon for this person I know to cheat on his wife if she had some sort of normal argument with him at home. That’s the level of escalation you’re working with. NPD’s can be extremely spiteful, and often carry out their ‘revenge’ quietly so as not to appear as a bad person which would hurt their outward image to others.

The most important thing to mention about a narcissist is that they think they are smarter than EVERYONE. It’s actually quite amusing listening to a narcissist lie, because their lies can be so obvious, but they still think they are pulling the wool over everyone else’s eyes.

When you look at Erin through the lense of NPD, all of her actions made sense. Although she was intelligent, she didn’t plan for after the fact because she honestly didn’t think anyone was clever enough to unravel her plan. Although the motive does not seem large enough to us, NPD’s hold onto everything and it becomes magnified in their eyes. They also often don’t feel guilt because they feel their victims “deserved” what happened to them. Tbh, I often still think Erin feels that Simon “deserved” to lose half of his family because of “all” he has done to her.

I mean, she actually told everyone on the stand that she was booked in for gastric bypass surgery and thought no-one would fact check it. She dumped a dehydrator at the tip and paid with her card thinking no-one would ever know. I don’t think we should view these things as “out of character” because she is so intelligent. But rather, a clear indicator that, although she is of above average intelligence, her NPD has worked against her in the case.

All of the reasons above are why motive is not required to prove intent in the eyes of the law. Yes, motive can help prove intent, but a lack of it (in the eyes of normal people) does not mean there was no intent. It’s left off the table because humans are complex and diverse and many times their motives won’t be understood or can be rationalized by the rest of us.

All IMO.

Very well thought out post. I think you nailed it.

It triggered a small realisation for me. Many have seemed to accept her emotional confession on the stand, where she claims that the real reason she lied to Gail about the elbow biopsy, etc, was because she was so comforted by Gail's kindness and concern, and that is what Erin said she craved---that love and concern. So that is why she continued on with those lies.

But that explanation doe not really fit for me. I think that was a self serving explanation for her deceit.

I think it is quite possible that she told those lies in order to gain some leverage in her power struggle with her in-laws. Telling them she possibly has a deadly illness and needs help with the grandchildren brings them all together on the same team----and on the same page.

It builds a tremendous amount of trust and support among them all. And if she does have NPD or similar clusters, then she also enjoys deceitful manipulation of others. Putting herself in a super vulnerable position and asking for help, when she is in fact planning that person's imminent demise is the ultimate win for EP.

Imagine her secret glee when her lunch guests were praying over her, asking God to help keep her safe, while EP knew the death caps were already entering their digestive tracts. It was the ultimate Eff You.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Incidentally, talking about both of these women - we were discussing a while back who might play Erin if a movie/TV show is ever made about this case. We didn't get very far. But now I am just remembering Meryl Streep playing Lindy (whom I always thought was innocent, btw). I'm not dissing Meryl, who is a fine actress. I just thought she was totally wrong to play Lindy. IMO

Reckon Magdalene Szubanski would be fantastic as Erin.

I mean that as a compliment to Magda and I do realize she is unwell too.

 

[Ellery84]

Reckon Magdalene Szubanski would be fantastic as Erin.

I mean that as a compliment to Magda and I do realize she is unwell too.

Magda is always fantastic in each and every role she takes on!

 

[Ellery84]

Is it just me or is everyone super-relieved that there has been no talk of periods or of menstruation throughout this case?

I already feel like there’s been a lot of talk of bodily functions: There has been testimony about poo and of vomit, and some talk about urine; we are just really blessed not to have the other bodily process up for discussion.

All imo.

 

[Monstradamus]

Is it just me or is everyone super-relieved that there has been no talk of periods or of menstruation throughout this case?

I already feel like there’s been a lot of talk of bodily functions: There has been testimony about poo and of vomit, and some talk about urine; we are just really blessed not to have the other bodily process up for discussion.

All imo.

No menopausal rage mentioned? It's a thing