Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If a Doctor says someone 'behaves' like a psychopath after noting they brutally killed their wife, does that seem likely that he WAS in fact a psychopath?

In the absence of a formal diagnosis and most especially when the subject has been proven to lie and therefore their answers in a psych evaluation could not be relied upon, then to state that someone has 'behaved like x, y, z' is a clever way of describing the actions without having a diagnosis.

One could say someone 'behaved like a violent person' on the day they punched someone in frustration. I would say that makes them an actual violent person but it's semantics and it's certainly more legally safe to talk around the houses.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

RSBM
She certainly was suspected, and even charged, however the charges were later dropped.

Sorry I meant at the time.

I have always wondered exactly why Simon felt 'uncomfortable' about attending the meal.

 

[Salah11]

And it's not ethical to say she did, before the jury hands down the verdict.

She did poison her guests that’s not in dispute.

The question is, was it an innocent accident or was it intentional.

 

[Moll]

Sorry I meant at the time.

I have always wondered exactly why Simon felt 'uncomfortable' about attending the meal.

I've never thought that was odd. I found it odd that he phrased his refusal of the invitation so politely, given his previous experiences. 'Uncomfortable' seems like the understatement of the century.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

There is actually no proof that Simon got sick from her meal or that she was suspected at the time.

After she had poisoned her 4 guests, we know that Simon claimed she had poisoned him. It is very reasonable to assume that the source of his illness wasn't obvious at the time, but that this event meant he now suspected a meal with her.

I've always said one of the most convincing arguments against EP for me is Simon's mystery illness. It is a level of coincidence that is very hard to imagine.

 

[Salah11]

I just hope if she is found not guilty that she is swiftly arrested for Simon’s 3 mysterious ailments.

MOO

 

[brisbanemum]

With the poisoning theory, as with the murder theory, it is reliant on DC not being discovered. Most of us suspect that Simon was poisoned without discovery and her panicked actions started straight after DC were mentioned.

With the poisoning however, EP is far less of a suspect because she has after all gotten ill against a spectrum of illness. This is far more believable than 4 on their death beds and one person having diahorrea. Even if they hadn't found DC, she would have obviously been the prime suspect. This isn't necessarily true with poisoning, I don't think she was suspected about Simon's illness although I'll admit I'm not sure.

Without identification of the poison, there could have been a number of different possibilities, some innocent some not. There also wouldnt necessarily have been significant police involvement like there was with deaths. This is possibly naive, but not as naive as thinking 4/5 would die and you wouldn't instantly be the suspect.

Appreciate your perspective, but isn’t the alternative you’re proposing equally naive? Thinking feeding people death caps would only make them sick and not kill them?

 

[Salah11]

Appreciate your perspective, but isn’t the alternative you’re proposing equally naive? Thinking feeding people death caps would only make them sick and not kill them?

Exactly it’s in name what they are.

 

[LinasK]

Without sounding combatative, is there any evidence other than forum speculation that she is actually a narcissist?

Before coming on this forum and as an atheist, I've spent many years of my life talking with theists and also conspiracy theorists. One mistake they regularly make is thinking that because they can come up with an answer, that it is a good one. This is most obvious with conspiracy theorists. There was a recent flat earth experiment where they went and experienced the 24-hr sun, of course the flat earthers just dismissed it with claims of shilling and fakery and moved on.

We are all capable of this way of thinking in obviously less-extreme ways, when we have a conclusion that is firmly held. If something comes along that challenges something that we deeply believe, we scratch around for a possible answer. I'm 100% that the Turin shroud is a fake, but once in a while a fact will come out that I can't easily rebut. I then accept a less convincing answer because regardless, it isn't going to mean the shroud is real.

This is what I think people are doing with a couple of the key aspects of this case, and I'm not sure they quite realise it. They are so certain of her guilt that they can't see that saying murderers don't think about what happens afterwards isn't a very convincing answer, and nor is the idea she was filled with such hatred over what is a normal family dispute that she wanted these people dead at great cost to herself.

For me and some others, the evidence against EP isn't that strong and unexplainable by other ways that I can discount what the defence called anti-motives.

This isn't me saying I think she is definitely or probably innocent, I don't, but if I was a juror I certainly wouldn't be going in certain I'd be able to get over reasonable doubt.

I'm in no way professionally diagnosing her. Just giving my opinion on a true crime forum across the world from having following many cases over the years and seeing the behavior of narcissists and how they live in the moment and don't plan for the aftermath well- many buy their murder supplies on surveillance video at Walmart. You see it as a normal family dispute not worth killing people over. I submit that Erin held simmering rage towards her in-laws and hid it well.

 

[Way2Invested]

There's no proof that Erin tried to poison Simon in the past, but she was originally arrested with trying to poison him on 3 different occasions. Did you know that the last time that he became extremely ill and was put into an induced coma, that he told his GP afterwards that he suspected that Erin had tried to poison him? He didn't just have a minor gastric complaint.

Do you have a source for Simon mentioning his suspicions to his GP? I've seen this idea come up a few times but I'm not sure where it's from.

 

[LinasK]

I refer you to the post only a few above where Jess D has literally said that murderers don't consider what happens afterwards all the time.

The bigger problem is not that she would plan poorly afterwards, it's that she would think 4 people would die in suspicious circumstances and that she wouldn't instantly be a serious suspect both officially and unofficially. Also, it would have serious negative consequences for her even if it was an accident. Remember, she'd have had a long time to consider these things and it isn't very reasonable (not impossible) to think she would have discounted them.

Yes, but it seems she thought she'd get away with it if they got beyond the 48 hour window when the DC's weren't detectable in the bloodstream. Her plan failed when Simon urged them all to immediately go to the hospital and the authorities suspected and tested for DC's.

 

[LinasK]

I don't know these cases but I'll ask are they a murder of 1 person?

If so, it is much easier for a person to convince themselves they could get away with the murder of 1 person than it is for 4 people.

I took the first one and had a look at it, and there's certainly no doubt about her guilt and she was extremely sloppy. However, she tried to poison him with fentanyl which she obviously thought would look like a drug overdose. She would potentially get huge financial and personal gain.

In comparison, what did Erin think would happen next? She's cooked a meal where 4 of them have died. She's supposed to be very intelligent but didn’t consider that when they didn't find what had caused the deaths that they would seriously investigate her and her life? It's not like she tried to pass it off as something else.

But Erin DID try to pass it off as something else- bad beef, "Asian mushrooms", a case of gastro, accidentally picking/adding the DC's....

 

[LinasK]

Do you work with Elon Musk? I can't wait for full self-driving cars to hit in 2019.

EP would still be a much more extreme version than these cases. Of course people will suspect a spouse, often only because they're a spouse. However, it's easier to believe somebody thinking people will believe a fentanyl overdose than they'll believe mystery 4 people just mysteriously died. They also had much clearer gains and much clearer motives.

I have actually found one case that is in some ways more similar. The case of Diane Staudte. She murdered a number of her family members over a period of a few months using the same poisoning method without realising she'd get caught.

It's not that I discount these as possibilities, but they are unlikely. Even in the realms of murder, the EP motives would be extreme and rare. That in itself isn't proof but it is something to consider when looking at the whole story.

Staudte had a financial motive I think, but yes she was a poisoner. It's true that most poisoners only have 1 victim at a time, but spree killers do kill by other means and have multiple victims. So maybe that's a better comparison?

 

[LinasK]

She allegedly tried to poison SP on 3 occasions. I wonder if he suspected her at the time, or only since his parents and aunt and uncle were poisoned?

I think he suspected her and that's why he didn't even come in after dropping the children back off at the house after the movie.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Do you have a source for Simon mentioning his suspicions to his GP? I've seen this idea come up a few times but I'm not sure where it's from.

I've deleted my post. Sorry, I was mistaken.

 

[LinasK]

I don't like to be a debby downer but life sentences aren't really the norm for murder in Victoria. I think the average is about 22ish years, with 25 years being the 'standard' murder sentence. Life sentences tend to be reserved for the worst: like mass murderers of randoms via a mass shooting, or serial killers. Murders committed after horrific sexual assaults. Stuff like that. And while multiple sentences can be made to be served consecutively, they're usually concurrent.

Its totally up to the judge and his decision, of course. But sentencing tends to be light in Australia. Even if its life if convicted she'll be eligible for parole, it won't be LWOP.


She doesn't deny that her lunch contained death cap mushrooms, and her guests were poisoned. Those are agreed facts.

Asking seriously- wouldn't this case with 3 victims and 1 attempted be considered a "mass murder"?

 

[Sarahlou]

Asking seriously- wouldn't this case with 3 victims and 1 attempted be considered a "mass murder"?

I just looked this up and it seems Australia class 4+ murders in a single incident as mass murder.

 

[Monstradamus]

Do you have a source for Simon mentioning his suspicions to his GP? I've seen this idea come up a few times but I'm not sure where it's from.

I thought I had read in on here somewhere, but can't find it. This article makes a mention of it.

Ex-husband of woman accused of killing three people with toxic mushrooms claims she tried to poison him

Erin Patterson was the only one who did not get ill after she served lunch to four family members - with three of them dead and a fourth fighting for their life in hospital.

news.sky.com

 

[CityKid]

I wonder how he can say that and furthermore if the defence can object to for example instructions of disregarding Erin’s versions of events?

I don't know how the Australian court system works, but in the US the standard part of every jury instructions I've heard as a juror includes a statement that the jury can choose to exclude any or all of a witness's testimony if they believe it wasn't truthful (among other reasons; this link goes into detail for NY courts).

https://www.nycourts.gov/judges/cji/5-SampleCharges/CJI2d.Final_Instructions.pdf

 

[Kemug]

It was late May 2022 when Simon fell ill from a mysterious illness. He was in hospital for a month before being moved to rehab. He had to have several operations on his small intestine, was also placed in an induced coma, and his parents said their final farewells to him twice. Somehow he pulled through. On July 7 he put out a call to the local Facebook group from rehab, asking if anyone could recommend a good local physiotherapist, to help him regain his strength. I don't know how long that might have taken, but surely more than a week or two. It's quite likely IMO that it would take at least until September (about 6 weeks) to regain his strength. But I'm no expert. Still, by September some of us are beginning to plan Xmas holidays, thinking about what to buy people as Xmas presents, etc. The year is beginning its downhill run. On 28th April the next year, ie 6 - 7 months later, the Defence alleges that Erin picked Deathcap mushrooms at Loch, and also purchased a dehydrator.
The point I am (somewhat laboriously!) trying to make, is that although Erin was not charged with poisoning Simon at the time, LE may have had suspicions, and may have even begun to investigate and put together a case. There really wasn't all that much time between Simon's mystery illness, the mushroom picking, the buying of the dehydrator and the poisoning event on July 29. We may yet see her charged with poisoning Simon. IMO