Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[TootsieFootsie]

Police probe after wild mushroom deaths

A major police probe has been launched into the deaths of three elderly people who died after eating wild and poisonous mushrooms.

au.lifestyle.yahoo.com

One man still fighting for life.

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[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

IMPORTANT

Effective with Erin Patterson's arrest, sub judice is in effect and will be until a trial has concluded. For anyone not familiar with the judicial principle of sub judice, please review the following.

WS is based in the USA but we do try to manage the various discussions to comply with laws of other countries.

As this trial is in Australia, the case is under sub judice so please avoid anything that violates the following principles:

Basically anything that may prejudice the accused’s right to a fair trial
Any suggestion, opinion, or direct accusation that the accused is either guilty OR innocent
(i.e. the accused cannot be called "the killer"; use "the accused", "the alleged killer", or "the defendant")
A defendant’s previous history of any offences is off limits
Scandalizing the court (disparaging judges, lawyers, any officer of the Court) is off limits
Broadcasting anything about proceedings which happen in the jury's absence is off limits
Any non compliance with an Order of the court is off limits

Note in the event of an Appeal subsequent to verdict:
Appeals are usually heard by senior judges who are not likely to be influenced by the media, therefore responsible comment is usually considered acceptable once a trial has concluded, regardless of if there is going to be an appeal.

Posts that are determined to constitute a violation of sub judice will be removed. To avoid this, please review the following from the Victoria Law Reform Commission and post accordingly:

10. Sub judice contempt: restricting the publication of prejudicial information

 

[Megnut]

IMO EP expected SP to be there, even after he dared tell her no.

Remember all those duplicate ingredients?

Maybe the effort EP went to was in preparing for two full lunches.

6 people at the table. Super sketch if only one survives, the cook.

But what if three people die and three live?

Mr. Mandy prattled on Don and Heather (do I have the right pairing, the couple that wasn't her BIL and MIL?) Inviting them tempers the appearances of an intervention of some sort. A draw to pull on all the guests.

Leaves SP with a support system, the nice couple with whom she has no issues...

I sense that she was ANGRY that SP didn't show up, didn't give her the opportunity to send him home with a single serving of BW.

I don't think any of it went down like she expected it to, whatever her expectations may have been, including but not limited to the luncheon and the hospital aftermath.

JMO

 

[BreakingNews]

In one sense it is a game between opposing sides, like a debate.

As for getting at the truth, IMO it would be very interesting to be present during pretrial negotiations about what evidence will be admissible and what will not.

I was in the court room for most of Baden Clays trial and pretrial. Indeed very interesting.

 

[SouthAussie]

Did Mr. Mandy address why Erin’s kids didn’t get sick from eating the mushroom soaked meat? I don’t recall.

Not that I have read anywhere. Mandy mentioned the children a couple of times ... but not why they didn't get sick, as far as I have seen. It appears that he may have left that subject alone.


Mandy points to the “imperfect” evidence of nurse Kylie Ashton who told the trial the Patterson’s children eating the beef wellington leftovers was first discussed at her initial presentation at Leongatha hospital.

Mandy says this evidence was not supported by other medical witnesses and it was inconceivable doctors knew about the children at the initial presentation as they would have taken urgent action.

He says the nurse may have found out about the children later and made a mistake when she testified.

Erin Patterson mushroom trial day 33 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

"Erin Patterson had a motive to keep these people in her world so that they could keep supporting her and her children," he said.
"And there's absolutely no doubt that Don and Gail had a great relationship with [their grandchildren] … absolutely no doubt that Erin was devoted to her children.

Prosecutor details Erin Patterson's 'lies upon lies' to jury

Erin Patterson's defence barrister tells the jury in her triple-murder trial that the "devoted" mother had no motive to deprive her children of their "wonderful" grandparents.

www.abc.net.au

 

[MsMarple]

Not that I have read anywhere. Mandy mentioned the children a couple of times ... but not why they didn't get sick, as far as I have seen. It appears that he may have left that subject alone.


Mandy points to the “imperfect” evidence of nurse Kylie Ashton who told the trial the Patterson’s children eating the beef wellington leftovers was first discussed at her initial presentation at Leongatha hospital.

Mandy says this evidence was not supported by other medical witnesses and it was inconceivable doctors knew about the children at the initial presentation as they would have taken urgent action.

He says the nurse may have found out about the children later and made a mistake when she testified.

Erin Patterson mushroom trial day 33 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

"Erin Patterson had a motive to keep these people in her world so that they could keep supporting her and her children," he said.
"And there's absolutely no doubt that Don and Gail had a great relationship with [their grandchildren] … absolutely no doubt that Erin was devoted to her children.

Prosecutor details Erin Patterson's 'lies upon lies' to jury

Erin Patterson's defence barrister tells the jury in her triple-murder trial that the "devoted" mother had no motive to deprive her children of their "wonderful" grandparents.

www.abc.net.au

Thanks!

 

[tricia]

Please continue here.

 

[Lisa4]

"Erin Patterson had a motive to keep these people in her world so that they could keep supporting her and her children," he said.

NPD would have a motive to remove the "interference" of these people from how she really wanted to live her life... and that absolutely included removing pastor and wife.

IMO

 

[Old Soul]

“By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes….”

In the previous thread some references were made to the witches in Macbeth and Erin’s Facebook witch avatar…..which had me thinking about hemlock.

Hemlock is a pretty flowering plant of which the seeds, roots, leaves, flowers and fruits contain deadly poisonous alkaloid chemicals

How Does Hemlock Kill You? Poisoning Symptoms and Treatment

The hemlock plant, known as poison hemlock, is poisonous. Its seeds, flowers, leaves, or fruits contain poisonous alkaloid chemicals. Any part can kill you even after ingesting small amounts.

www.medicinenet.com

So I popped onto iNaturalist, zoomed into the Gippsland region, and right there in Loch, Conium maculatom, poison hemlock.

It is not of relevance to the death cap mushroom case but I thought an interesting coincidence in light of what we have read about alleged previous attempts to poison Simon.
The earliest post (for Loch) is dated 5/9/2022 so not really fitting the mystery gut illness timeline. However poison hemlock is pretty widespread so could have been found elsewhere on iNaturalist if someone was seeking it out.

 

[SouthAussie]

NPD would have a motive to remove the "interference" of these people from how she wanted to live her life... and that absolutely included removing pastor and wife.
IMO

Though there has been no diagnosis of NPD, or BPD, or any such conditions presented to the jury.

And the opinions of those 12 balloted people are the only ones that are going to count in the outcome.

imo

 

[Scooby-Doo]

Mandy hasn't addressed how death cap mushroom traces were found on the dehydrator.

The same toxin was ingested by four guests who ate beef Wellingtons at Ms Patterson's home

 

[Lisa4]

Though there has been no diagnosis of NPD, or BPD, or any such conditions presented to the jury.

And the opinions of those 12 balloted people are the only ones that are going to count in the outcome.

imo

Yes, you're right on both...

I understand it's part of it that NPDs often don't get a formal diagnosis, as it is inherent that they cannot accept they would have anything "wrong". It's everything and everyone else. So it's probably very unlikely it woud ever come up in court.

It's just personally interesting to me and I have wondered what the chances are that there is anyone on the jury with longterm experience of an NPD person, and what, if any difference that might make.

Knowing about NPD in this case really does make those otherwise inexplicable pieces all "fall into place". For me at least. And I believe some others here.

 

[lazymaiden07]

Okay, ABC is up and running....I can't do the whole day, but can kick things off at least

Welcome to Wednesday's live coverage​

By Melissa Brown​

Thanks for joining us as Erin Patterson's barrister continues to sum up the defence team's case.

Colin Mandy SC will resume his closing address to the jury when court reconvenes at the Latrobe Valley Law Courts in the regional Victorian town of Morwell.

Mr Mandy began his address yesterday afternoon.

 

[lazymaiden07]

How much longer will the trial run?​

Yesterday, Justice Christopher Beale gave the jury an update on the timeframe of the trial.

He said his final instructions weren't likely to start until Monday and he expected them to take more than a day.

"With the wind at my back, I might finish it by Tuesday afternoon," he told the panel.

With that in mind, the jury would probably not start deliberating until the middle of next week.

 

[lazymaiden07]

Who has been representing Erin Patterson?​

The defence team has been led by Colin Mandy SC with the assistance of barrister Sophie Stafford.

Both have questioned witnesses throughout the eight weeks of evidence.

Mr Mandy is delivering the closing address.

 

[lazymaiden07]

And we're off!

Defence continues its closing arguments​

Colin Mandy SC begins court proceedings today by taking the jury to a concept: hindsight reasoning.

He says that although "seductive", it is dangerous to use hindsight reasoning to judge his client's actions.

Mr Mandy says this is what the prosecution was attempting to engage the jury in with its closing arguments.

"What hindsight reasoning does, in a way, is to shift the burden of proof onto the defence," Mr Mandy says.

"When a prosecutor is asking you 'what would you have done in that situation?', they are asking you to convict Ms Patterson based on deviation from some assumed norm."

 

[lazymaiden07]

Defence outlines dangers of hindsight reasoning​

Mr Mandy says knowing that deaths occurred following the lunch means that Ms Patterson's actions that could otherwise be readily explained "can appear sinister".

"Hindsight reasoning is an invitiation to apply a moral judgement to what someone has done," Mr Mandy says.

"It doesn't matter what you may have done in a similar situation."

Mr Mandy says Ms Patterson is not on trial for being a liar or being morally incorrect, and those things had no place in the trial.

 

[browneyes]

How much longer will the trial run?​

Yesterday, Justice Christopher Beale gave the jury an update on the timeframe of the trial.

He said his final instructions weren't likely to start until Monday and he expected them to take more than a day.

"With the wind at my back, I might finish it by Tuesday afternoon," he told the panel.

With that in mind, the jury would probably not start deliberating until the middle of next week.

Good day, that’s a long time for instructions. May he have a tornado at his back too.

 

[lazymaiden07]

Defence warns against giving 'bad outcomes' too much weight​

Mr Mandy says the outcome of the lunch corrupts how someone might view his client's actions in hindsight.

"Bad outcomes can make alternative explanations seem less plausible," he says.

"Even when those possibilities remain genuinely reasonable alternatives based on the evidence."

He says that her lies and actions did not change her intentions at the time of serving the meal.

 

[browneyes]

Defence outlines dangers of hindsight reasoning​

Mr Mandy says knowing that deaths occurred following the lunch means that Ms Patterson's actions that could otherwise be readily explained "can appear sinister".

"Hindsight reasoning is an invitiation to apply a moral judgement to what someone has done," Mr Mandy says.

"It doesn't matter what you may have done in a similar situation."

Mr Mandy says Ms Patterson is not on trial for being a liar or being morally incorrect, and those things had no place in the trial.

I think it does matter if she’s a liar. She’s been caught in quite a few.