Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

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  • #161
2m ago

Defence addresses Asian grocer​

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy says he skipped over some previous events, and goes back in time to address the issue of the Asian grocer.

He says records show that Erin Patterson was living in Mount Waverley at the time, and says Ms Patterson's daughter remembers going with her mother to an Asian grocer.

Mr Mandy says his client's accounts are consistent with the items found in those stores.

"She's not making it up, she is obviously familiar with the packaging," he says.

He argues it is clear that his client bought dried mushrooms at the store.

Even if she did, they weren't Death Caps!
 
  • #162
10m ago13.22 AEST
Colin Mandy SC turns to the evidence from Erin Patterson that she bought dried mushrooms from an Asian grocer months before the July 2023 lunch.

He says it is “very probable” Patterson bought dried mushrooms from an Asian grocer in April, pointing to evidence that her account of the packaging was consistent with those sold in those stores.

Mandy says it’s unlikely Patterson would buy a dehydrator if she only required it for the beef wellington lunch.

“You can dehydrate things in the oven,” he says.

Mandy says it is “much more likely” to be for a “long-term project or hobby”.
Ad nauseam. 😒
 
  • #163
  • #164
How do you see that it matters to the actual murders?
It matters to the actual crimes because she was lying ABOUT those crimes.
She has admitted to lying. But she has never lied about intentions to kill.
How do we know she hasn't lied about her intentions to kill? I think she has lied about those intentions, repeatedly. And once I saw how many times she lied and how many people she lied to, about the actual crimes, I decided I could not take her word for anything.
I'm just trying to understand the law.
One legal tenant is that if a witness lies during their testimony then one can take that dishonesty into account when assessing their further testimony.



The thing that puzzles me is, if you plan to kill Simon and his family.

Why would you proceed if Simon wasn't coming? Why not postpone it so he will be there?
Maybe she was very angry that he refused to accept her invitation. That anger simmered and escalated to a deep rage---so she wanted to hurt him in the worst way possible?
 
  • #165
Revenge??

I think Simon was the main hit. She was not happy that he was not attending.

But I am sure she wanted the whole lot gone, in one go, so they weren't in her and the kids' lives again

But I can't understand why she just didn't postpone the lunch, so Simon could attend as well?
 
  • #166
I think Simon was the main hit. She was not happy that he was not attending.

But I am sure she wanted the whole lot gone, in one go, so they weren't in her and the kids' lives again

But I can't understand why she just didn't postpone the lunch, so Simon could attend as well?
I suggest she knew there was no way that Simon was ever going to attend any meal cooked by her. IMO

I'm sure he never thought that his parents & aunt & uncle would be alleged targets IMO
 
  • #167
Key Event
3m ago

We return from the break​


By Judd Boaz​

Colin Mandy SC has continued with his closing argument for the defence.

He has turned his attention towards death cap mushrooms, and says the prosecution's argument lives in "a world of total speculation".

Mr Mandy says by the prosecution's argument, Erin must have collected enough death cap mushrooms to kill five people by April 28th, despite expert evidence stating they are very difficult to find and identify.

 
  • #168
14:31

No evidence Patterson went to Loch looking for death caps, defence says​

Mr Mandy said there was no evidence at all Patterson saw the 'McKenzie iNaturalist' post about a death cap sighting in Loch in April 2023.
It's been a key part of the prosecution case Patterson visited Loch on April 28 after the iNaturalist post was placed online.
The prosecution said phone data records can place Patterson at Loch but Mr Mandy said the evidence on his client's phones was unclear.
Mr Mandy said death caps had been seen in the Loch area once only and Christine Mckenzie had picked them all.
'So, they must have grown back because Christine McKenzie picked them all on the 18th,' Mr Mandy said.
Mr Mandy said the evidence was Ms McKenzie picked every death cap she saw but she accepted more could grow back
'Dr Tom May wasn't asked if the death caps would grow back,' Mr Mandy said.


14:32

Doubt case over images of 'death caps'​

Mr Mandy said images found on Patterson's computer 'appeared to be death caps' but they could have been something else.
The barrister also said the jury couldn't say for sure they were death caps.
'It's hard to say,' Mr Mandy said.
'Even if they were death cap mushrooms it doesn't mean they were foraged intentionally.'

 
  • #169
14:36

Defence rubbishes case as 'speculation upon speculation'​

Mr Mandy said even experts found it difficult to identify mushrooms and it was just 'speculation' Patterson even picked death caps.
He said, according to the expert evidence provided at trial, the general public had a 'poor ability' to identify mushrooms.
Mr Mandy said the jury could not be confident Patterson went to Loch or that any death caps were even present there.
'It's speculation, upon speculation, upon speculation,' Mr Mandy said.

 
  • #170
4m ago14.36 AEST

Mandy turns to photos of mushrooms on seized device​

Mandy turns to evidence about photos of mushrooms found on a tablet police seized from Patterson’s house a week after the lunch. The court previously heard the “last modified” date of the photos were from April and May 2023.

The prosecution has alleged Patterson travelled to Loch and Outtrim in April and May to deliberately source death cap mushrooms.

Mandy reminds the jury they have heard evidence that the “last modified” time is not when the photograph was taken.

He says mycologist Dr Thomas May told the jury that the photos appeared to be consistent with death cap mushrooms from what he observed but he made qualifications.

“He said it’s possible they may be other species,” Mandy says.

He reminds the jury May said that identifying a mushroom from a single photo was very difficult.

The jury has heard evidence about how death cap mushrooms can be mistaken for other mushrooms at different stages of their life, Mandy says.

Mandy says the prosecution are suggesting Patterson was planning the murder from 28 April 2023 - 10 days after a sighting of death cap mushrooms in Loch was posted on the iNaturalist website.

He says this is pure speculation.
 
  • #171
14:36

Defence rubbishes case as 'speculation upon speculation'​

Mr Mandy said even experts found it difficult to identify mushrooms and it was just 'speculation' Patterson even picked death caps.
He said, according to the expert evidence provided at trial, the general public had a 'poor ability' to identify mushrooms.
Mr Mandy said the jury could not be confident Patterson went to Loch or that any death caps were even present there.
'It's speculation, upon speculation, upon speculation,' Mr Mandy said.

But her dehydrator has traces of Death Cap Mushrooms in it Mr Mandy...........I guess that was from the mystery Asian Grocery & it was just a miracle that no other members of the public died???

What are the odds?? 😲
 
  • #172
4m ago

Cached images on Ms Patterson's phone​


By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy then takes the jury to cached images, extracted from Erin Patterson's mobile phone.

He again says that the images shown to the jury were only a selection of images, presented by investigators.

Earlier in the trial, the jury was shown images that showed information about different types of cancers, which the prosecution argued Ms Patterson used to research her cancer lie.

Mr Mandy says due to limitations on the dating, these images could have instead been from previous instances where Ms Patterson believed she had cancer.

Key Event
1m ago

Defence accuses prosecution of mis-stating evidence​


By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy says that the prosecution has "seriously mis-stated" the evidence of telecommunications expert Matthew Sorell.

The defence tells the jury that the prosecution said Ms Patterson's phone was stationary in the northern end of Outtrim, and attributed it to Dr Sorell's testimony.

"He didn't say that," Mr Mandy says.

Mr Mandy says Dr Sorell merely said it was "possible" and that the phone "could be" in the area.

 
  • #173
Depends on the Judge's direction to the Jury.

If she introduced the mushrooms to the meals without care, we may see the charge downgraded to manslaughter

If the jury believes the mushrooms were introduced with the intent to kill or cause great harm, it's murder
 
  • #174
1.28pm

‘Many logical implausibilities’ in prosecution’s case​

By​

After dissecting the details of the lunch conversation and timing, defence lawyer Colin Mandy, SC, has turned to the topic of the mushrooms Erin Patterson had purchased from the Asian store. Mandy said the packaging Patterson had described was consistent with what a Monash City Council worker had found during an investigation after the lunch.

The defence barrister then turned to evidence about the dehydrator and said there was no need to buy one for a one-off meal, since one could dehydrate things in the oven at a low temperature, and the purchase spoke instead to a longer-term hobby.

“Why would you need to hide mushrooms in a mushroom paste?” Mandy said. “Why would you need that?”

Mandy said it was one of “many logical implausibilities” in the prosecution’s case.

The court has now paused for lunch, and will return at 2.15pm.

2.43pm

Uncertainty over travel to Loch, and type of mushrooms found at Patterson’s house​

By​

Good afternoon and welcome back to our live coverage of the murder trial of accused mushroom killer Erin Patterson at the Latrobe Valley law courts in Morwell after a lunch break.

This morning, defence barrister Colin Mandy, SC, continued his closing address after court was adjourned early last night when his voice started to fail. And his closing address will go into a third day, with Mandy telling the jury he had more material to get through.

“I should be finishing sometime tomorrow morning,” Mandy said, before turning the jury to the prosecution’s case that Patterson could have visited Loch on April 28, 2023. Earlier, the jury had heard evidence from Christine McKenzie, a retired pharmacist who worked for the Victorian Poisons Information Centre for 17 years, who said she had spotted the mushrooms at Loch on April 18, 2023.

Mandy said there was no evidence Patterson had seen an online post by McKenzie about the mushrooms, and told the jury evidence by phone tower expert Dr Matthew Sorell “does not say that her phone travelled to Loch”, and instead spoke of a possible visit.

Mandy said that McKenzie had told the court she had picked all the mushrooms she could when she saw them, and there was no evidence death cap mushrooms had grown back.

He said McKenzie’s evidence was that she was not aware of whether it was early or late in the season but there was a possibility they would come up over the next days or weeks. He said those questions from the prosecution should have been directed to Dr Tom May, a mycologist and witness earlier in the trial.

Mandy told the jury that the images of mushrooms on a tray obtained from Patterson’s house did not show all the features of the mushrooms needed to positively identify them as death caps and recalled that May had said they were “highly consistent” with death cap mushrooms, but the prosecution had not asked May what other species of mushrooms they could possibly be.

Even if they were death cap mushrooms, Mandy said, that was no evidence that they had been picked deliberately and pointed to evidence by May about the difficulty in accurately identifying mushrooms.

 
  • #175
Key Event
1m ago

Prosecution was 'selective' with mobile phone data, defence says​


By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy accuses the prosecution of being "selective" with the data it provided Dr Sorell with.

In the trial, we heard that EBM data from mobile phone networks showed Ms Patterson's phone connected to towers near where death cap mushrooms grew.

He tells the jury that Ms Patterson's alleged phone pings to an Outtrim mobile phone tower could not be identified as a regular occurrence due to the small sample size of phone data provided to the expert.

"The limitation of his analysis was the fact that he only had EBM data for a handful of days … it's 23 days out of 500," he says.

 
  • #176
14:48

Questions over why Patterson would forage for more death caps​

Mr Mandy has taken the jury back to images found on a device and quizzed why his client would hunt for more death caps if she already had collected enough in April 2023.
He said the images of mushrooms in the dehydrator were taken the day after it was purchased.
'But the other ones are unclear,' Mr Mandy said.
Mr Mandy said these images were found in cache images.
'It's not the whole context of what's in the drive,' Mr Mandy said
Mr Mandy said the details of the images were different from the prosecution's assertions Patterson made possible visits to Loch and Outtrim on May 22.
The jury heard death caps had been seen on May 21.
Mr Mandy asked why his client would be looking for more death caps if she got all she needed in April.
'It's getting complicated this theory,' Mr Mandy said.
'According to them, she's got all that she needs… and there's no need, in our submission, for her to get any more on May 22.

 
  • #177
14:50

Locations of where Patterson's phone pinged questioned​

Mr Mandy has directed the jury to a map of towers Patterson's phone connected to in Outtrim.
The evidence has previously been aired in court by telecommunications expert witness Dr Matthew Sorell.
Mr Mandy said it 'was' suggested Patterson's phone was stationary in Outtrim at the northern end on May 22.
But he reminded the jury Dr Sorell said, 'it could be in the area' and 'that it was possible'.
Mr Mandy said a possibility was Patterson's phone was somewhere else.

 
  • #178
Key Event
1m ago

Defence dismisses 'absurd' claim Ms Patterson wanted to kill Simon​

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy again reiterates the difficulty in identifying death cap mushrooms, as stated in evidence by Dr Tom May.

"It's quite possible, obviously, that a person might pick death cap mushrooms instead of the other mushrooms they're accustomed to," Mr Mandy says.
Mr Mandy tells the jury that the prosecution's allegation that Erin Patterson also wanted to kill her husband is "absurd".

He says that the consequences of such an act would be far too severe for herself and for her children.

"There's no possible prospect that Erin wanted in those circumstances to destroy her whole world, her whole life," he says.


 
  • #179
  • #180
Key Event
3m ago

We return from the break​

By Judd Boaz​

Colin Mandy SC has continued with his closing argument for the defence.

He has turned his attention towards death cap mushrooms, and says the prosecution's argument lives in "a world of total speculation".

Mr Mandy says by the prosecution's argument, Erin must have collected enough death cap mushrooms to kill five people by April 28th, despite expert evidence stating they are very difficult to find and identify.

Can someone just remind me please, was it 500 grams of Death Caps that she had on her scales (which she had photographed)?
 
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