Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[Deleted member 363451]

Didn’t Erin say she didn’t taste the duxelles again after adding the stinky dehydrated mushrooms? Things aren’t making sense, is Mandy just throwing out everything and hoping something will stick?

I know and I'm pretty sure that she weighed 500 grams of Death Caps and Manday is trying to imply that she wouldn't have had enough to poison 4 people. Well how the [mod snip] did they get poisoned then??

 

[Way2Invested]

2m ago

Dehydrator purchase makes no sense for planned murder, defence says​

Surviving lunch guest 'honestly mistaken', defence tells Erin Patterson jury — as it happened

Erin Patterson's defence lawyer is continuing his closing address to the jury after eight weeks of evidence in the triple-murder trial.

www.abc.net.au

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy then addresses Erin Patterson's purchase of a dehydrator.


He then contests the prosecution's argument that Ms Patterson tried to hide mushrooms inside the beef Wellington, saying there would be no need to hide mushrooms inside a mushroom paste.

Mr Mandy refers to it as one of "many, many" logical inconsistences in the prosecution case.

Uh maybe you've been dehydrating store bought mushrooms in your oven but when it comes to highly toxic death caps you don't want to risk contaminating the appliance you use to cook your food in???

 

[LinasK]

When was te last time that Simon had eaten there though? I'm sure Ian Wilkinson would remember if they all had multi coloured plates and so would poor Gail...

Heather did. Too bad they can't bring in her statement as a "dying declaration".

 

[drsleuth]

3m ago

We take another break​

By Judd Boaz​

Justice Beale signals for a break, and the jury heads out.

Back with more soon.

Surviving lunch guest 'honestly mistaken', defence tells Erin Patterson jury — as it happened

Erin Patterson's defence lawyer is continuing his closing address to the jury after eight weeks of evidence in the triple-murder trial.

www.abc.net.au

 

[katydid23]

12.51pm

Lies spun from insecurity, not malice​

ByMarta Pascual Juanola
Erin Patterson was a woman who struggled with her weight, image, and binge-eating, her defence lawyer, Colin Mandy, SC, has told the jury.

He said evidence from the leading detective in the case, Stephen Eppingstall, was that Patterson had purchased dieting books and that her medical records showed she had complained to a medical professional about her weight.

“That’s a theme consistent with her evidence,” Mandy said.

In April and May 2023, Patterson contacted the Enrich clinic, which offered liposuction, but that all she had done was make an appointment. Mandy said all she had done was make an appointment, and thought they offered a whole range of treatments including liposuction and gastric bypass, but she was mistaken.

“She often thought there was something wrong with her. Often this worry was without substance,” Mandy said, and that it wasn’t surprising that leading into April and May 2023, “a lump on her painful elbow would result in concern and worry in this same way”.

Patterson had lied to her relatives about her health leading up to the lunch, her lawyer acknowledged.

“Erin often thought that she had issues with her health that ended up going nowhere... that’s not made up, that’s not a lie, that’s for everyone to see in her medical records and the conversation she had with other people, including Simon,” Mandy said.

Patterson had moved to Leongatha further away from Don and Gail, with whom she had a good relationship, and Mandy said it was probably true that she felt that Simon might have been isolating her again from the broader Patterson family and that a lie about her health was understandable when put into the context of isolation when she wanted love and care. He said there was no malicious intent behind it.

He told the jury that if they put themselves in Patterson’s shoes at the time, it might be more understandable.
“She is not on trial for lying. This is not a court of... moral judgment. You shouldn’t take the lead from this lie about the lump on her elbow to finding her guilty of triple murder. Those two things are a very long way apart,” Mandy said.

“She was trying to gain something. The continuation of Don and Gail’s care and concern, love and attention. And if it wasn’t for the lunch no one would have found out that it was a lie,” Mandy said.

“Don and Gail, and Ian and Heather were not told anything about it. The evidence is that they did not know the reason or the purpose for the lunch on July 29, 2023. If it had been a rouse to get them all there, to mislead them to come to the lunch for some reason she would have given them that explanation before the lunch ... but she didn’t,” Mandy said.

Erin Patterson murder trial day 34 as it happened: Defence barrister Colin Mandy tells jury accused mushroom cook wanted to be close to in-laws; may have reacted differently to consuming to poison

Patterson’s barrister will continue his closing address in Morwell’s courtroom four on Thursday, after the judge warned jurors to expect a long direction from the bench next week.

www.theage.com.au

I'm not sure that I agree that the 4 in-laws knew nothing about the health issues as a reason for the visit. IIRC, EP had an ongoing text exchange with Gail concerning Erin's health concerns. So it was introduced to the in-laws before the luncheon. Mandy is stretching the truth, imo.

2m ago

Dehydrator purchase makes no sense for planned murder, defence says​

Surviving lunch guest 'honestly mistaken', defence tells Erin Patterson jury — as it happened

Erin Patterson's defence lawyer is continuing his closing address to the jury after eight weeks of evidence in the triple-murder trial.

www.abc.net.au

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy then addresses Erin Patterson's purchase of a dehydrator.
"If the plan is to, for one meal, you don't need to buy a dehydrator," he says.

"You can dehydrate things in the oven … one off, why do you need a dehydrator? Fan forced, low temperature."

Ummm, didn't she also 'practice' how to add mushrooms into a meal undetected? That means she used the dehydrator repeatedly. IMO

He then contests the prosecution's argument that Ms Patterson tried to hide mushrooms inside the beef Wellington, saying there would be no need to hide mushrooms inside a mushroom paste.

She did try to hide the pungent, funny smelling mushrooms well enough for the guests to eat them. She did so by turning them into a fine powder.
So they were hidden from microscopic view.

Mr Mandy refers to it as one of "many, many" logical inconsistences in the prosecution case.

If we are going to look at 'logical inconsistences' we can see many in the Defense case as well. imo

 

[sunspun]

Her kids did it for sure, but why would they do drawings and write comments about their grandparents being dead? It makes me think that they had overheard Erin talking negatively about them...

I've been staring at that wall picture for awhile, and here's what I can see written on it...

First off, it seems obvious it started out as a height marker chart for the kids, to keep track of their growth.

NOTE: The kids' names are mentioned on the wall, but I'll just substitute D for daughter and S for son in this post.

You can see where it says "S 3rd August 2021" on the left, marking son's height written in black, and I believe this handwriting to be Erin's (or Simon's?), because it looks less childish and neater.

A few inches below that is "D 3rd August 2021", marking the younger (and shorter) child's height on the same date. Also written by parent I believe.

There are several other marks as they grew, but some are faded (or erased), and much of this has been scribbled and drawn over, so not that legible. Seems the original purpose of the wall was forgotten after awhile, and it became a doodle wall.

There's a (very childish looking) drawing of maybe a man (happily?) stabbing a female figure in a dress with his sword, and we know it's a sword because written above that, it says "your (sic) dead from my sword", with what may be a couple practice attempts to draw a sword next to that. (Needs more practice, imo!)

Also above the 2 people figures, it says "the words know you sin", or that's what it looks like to me. Which is weird, imo. Right under a happy face. And a big red square. And a very dark big red sun over the people. Under the female figure, it says "I am dead".

That's all in red ink. Then in black ink (possibly indicating a different artist?), it says, "mhhm [illegible word] Funny".

Under that is something I find weird. It think it says "Deck of the house". That's also in black and to the right of the sun. To the left, it says "no offensies", kinda humorous, I thought. Because it's written right over the man who's stabbing the woman figure.

Oh and under the "I am dead" in red ink under the female figure, someone's written in black ink "No I am realy (sic)". Or something like that, looks like another word before "am", but idk what. There's also a "woohoo" in black under the man. And I think I see the word "eternety (sic)" in black and underlined on the right of the female. And to the right of that is the line saying, "You don't long to live. 1 hour exactly" (I think it's missing the word "have".) There's a "yay! thank you" by that. Also under that is "First busted(?) dolphins on Saturday. Tomorrow [illegible word] in a boat for an hour and a half(?) YAY!", not sure if it says busted though. Or half.

Then, as previously noted, there's 3(?) tombstones under that drawing. One says "gr nana R.I.P". The next one is smaller, and I believe says the daughter's name with "R.I.P." But seems to be another word after her name, maybe her middle name? Idk. Then the 3rd tombstone is big like the first one and says "ME R.I.P."

Then to the left of all this, in black ink, it says "Joss and Henry are very good. Joss and Henry are very good Lego holders". Thought that was strange!

Also strange imo, was this: "If you take the er out of butter, it spells butt", scrawled in black on the right part of the wall!

Under that, "I saw dolphins on Saturday" The next line is hard to read. Maybe says, "athletics hurts and is fun!" Or instead of athletics, maybe it says ankle socks! ?

And finally, looks like "The Modern Man the modern man yeah!" Or maybe modest man?

That's pretty much all of it, imo. And to me, doesn't look like anything worrisome at all, just kids scribbling. I left out all the ohh yeahs and woohoos.

There is one other thing I couldn't make out that I was interested in. It's almost completely faded so I can't tell what it said. It's on the far left, near the growth marks, so might have been written when they were. Looks like it said, "the Wall of Good [illegible words]" or something like that. Can someone else see what that said?

 

[LinasK]

Different plate theory a 'colourful piece of evidence'​

While he said he did not want to make a pun, Mr Mandy called the evidence of the plates a “colourful piece of evidence”.
Since it made more sense to mark the unpoisoned serve than to serve it on a different plate, he said Ian “had to be wrong” about what he said about the four grey plates for the guests and a smaller, orangey-tan plate for Erin.
“It makes no sense logically,” Mr Mandy said.
“He’s honestly mistaken.”
He took the jury to Simon’s evidence that Erin did not have a “matching set of plates”, describing them as a “mismatched group”.
Mr Mandy then said Erin’s son told an investigator he helped his mum clean up the kitchen after the lunch and remembered the plates being “plain white” dinner plates.
During her evidence-in-chief, Erin told the jury she served the beef wellingtons on a “couple of black”, a “couple of white” and black/red plates.
Mr Mandy said there was likely at “least three different coloured plates” at the lunch table that day, such as two black, two white and the coloured plate.
And he said it would make “perfect sense” for the guests to take the two matching plates.

Defence address turns to the lethal lunch​

Mr Mandy has arrived to the part of his closing address centered on the lunch.
He reminded the jury of the prosecution case that there were five poisoned beef wellingtons and one unpoisoned beef wellington.
He said, if that was the case, it would be important for the cook to be able to tell the unpoisoned serve from the other serves.
Mr Mandy said the cook could “lose track” of the unpoisoned serve while it is in the oven with the others, especially with the tray coming in and out.
But he said a “logical way” of getting around that was marking the unpoisoned serve, perhaps on the pastry, to be able to recognise it.
“Easy to do,” he said.
He then continued: “In which case, you would not need different coloured plates.”

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/the-mushroom-cook/erin-patterson-trial-live-defence-closing-address-continues/live-coverage/465cb2bb7de532b4bb938d7d4b405f6b#/entry/32283884

Marking the unpoisoned pastry would be MUCH more obvious to your guests than say 4 matching plates and one other and claiming that you only had 4 that matched.

 

[Detechtive]

Marking the unpoisoned pastry would be MUCH more obvious to your guests than say 4 matching plates and one other and claiming that you only had 4 that matched.

Good point!

 

[Cliff Hardy]

The defence disputes everything....yadda, yadda, yadda.

But.....none of what Mandy is putting up is convincing anyone of anything. It's like the big bad wolf arriving at the pig's brick house...and no amount of puffing or blowing is having any affect.

 

[Detechtive]

I know and I'm pretty sure that she weighed 500 grams of Death Caps and Manday is trying to imply that she wouldn't have had enough to poison 4 people. Well how the f.ck did they get poisoned then??

That means 10 deathcaps (roughly) which is enough to kill 10 adults. Or, kill 5 adults with 'overkill' IMO

 

[katydid23]

1m ago12.49 AEST
Mandy says his client “often thought there was something wrong with her”.

“Often this worry was without substance,” he says.

He reminds the jury about evidence they have heard that Patterson spoke to a doctor about concerns she had ovarian cancer and researched her symptoms online.

Mandy says Patterson testified she wanted to host the lunch because she became worried there may have been “distance” growing between her and the Patterson family. She said she realised she needed to be “more proactive” about social contact with her in-laws.

Mandy says Patterson said she lied about having a needle biopsy appointment for a lump on her elbow because she didn’t want the care shown by Don and Gail to stop.

“Erin often thought she had issues with her health that ended up going nowhere … that’s not made up, that’s not a lie. It’s there for everyone to see in her medical records and her conversations with people, including Simon,” he says.


He says the jury should not leap from the lie about the lump on her elbow to “finding her guilty for triple murder”.

Mandy says the prosecution’s case is that Patterson’s lie about her elbow lump was a ruse to entice her lunch guests to the beef wellington meal.


He says if Patterson wanted to mislead her guests she would have mentioned the medical issue before the lunch.

"He says if Patterson wanted to mislead her guests she would have mentioned the medical issue before the lunch"

SHE DID discuss her medical issues before the lunch. She lied to Gail about that biopsy of her elbow lump and made it sound like more issues were to be talked about soon...

 

[L_B]

Didn’t Erin say she didn’t taste the duxelles again after adding the stinky dehydrated mushrooms? Things aren’t making sense, is Mandy just throwing out everything and hoping something will stick?

I think this is pretty much the tactic here. Remember its the prosecution who has to prove she did it. Defense don't have to prove anything. All they have to do is make one juror (and no doubt they'd want them all to) doubt the prosecution evidence.

 

[drsleuth]

15:51

Jury given possible reason why Patterson was less sick​

Mr Mandy asked the jury was it possible on the evidence Patterson ate the poison but did not get as sick as the others.
He directed the jury to some expert evidence that suggested some patients can have different reactions to the toxins, with some becoming sicker than others who had eaten the same amount.
The jury was reminded of the evidence of expert witness Dr Dimitri Gerostamoulos who said the effect the of poison on a person could depend on factors including how much poison they had consumed and the concentration of poison they had.
Mr Mandy said 'grade 1 severity poisoning', as explained by Dr Gerostamoulos, applies to people who have eaten the same meal as other people who fall into more serious grades of severity.
Mr Mandy said prosecutor Dr Rogers had been misleading about the evidence provided by that expert in her closing address.
'You're meant to have regard to the actual evidence,' Mr Mandy said.

Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates

Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Heather did. Too bad they can't bring in her statement as a "dying declaration".

1m ago12.49 AEST
Mandy says his client “often thought there was something wrong with her”.

“Often this worry was without substance,” he says.

He reminds the jury about evidence they have heard that Patterson spoke to a doctor about concerns she had ovarian cancer and researched her symptoms online.

Mandy says Patterson testified she wanted to host the lunch because she became worried there may have been “distance” growing between her and the Patterson family. She said she realised she needed to be “more proactive” about social contact with her in-laws.

Mandy says Patterson said she lied about having a needle biopsy appointment for a lump on her elbow because she didn’t want the care shown by Don and Gail to stop.

“Erin often thought she had issues with her health that ended up going nowhere … that’s not made up, that’s not a lie. It’s there for everyone to see in her medical records and her conversations with people, including Simon,” he says.


He says the jury should not leap from the lie about the lump on her elbow to “finding her guilty for triple murder”.

Mandy says the prosecution’s case is that Patterson’s lie about her elbow lump was a ruse to entice her lunch guests to the beef wellington meal.


He says if Patterson wanted to mislead her guests she would have mentioned the medical issue before the lunch.

Mandy says his client “often thought there was something wrong with her”.

“Often this worry was without substance,” he says.

 

[Lisa4]

@sunspun
Wow you have put a lot of time into deciphering and noting all of that, thank you!

Then to the left of all this, in black ink, it says "Joss and Henry are very good. Joss and Henry are very good Lego holders". Thought that was strange!

Joss and Henry are two brothers who are apparently "Lego Masters". Courtesy of a quick google search.

Also strange imo, was this: "If you take the er out of butter, it spells butt", scrawled in black on the right part of the wall!

I deduce you may not have conversed with a schoolboy for a very long time? correct or incorrect!

 

[L_B]

15:51

Jury given possible reason why Patterson was less sick​

Mr Mandy asked the jury was it possible on the evidence Patterson ate the poison but did not get as sick as the others.
He directed the jury to some expert evidence that suggested some patients can have different reactions to the toxins, with some becoming sicker than others who had eaten the same amount.
The jury was reminded of the evidence of expert witness Dr Dimitri Gerostamoulos who said the effect the of poison on a person could depend on factors including how much poison they had consumed and the concentration of poison they had.
Mr Mandy said 'grade 1 severity poisoning', as explained by Dr Gerostamoulos, applies to people who have eaten the same meal as other people who fall into more serious grades of severity.
Mr Mandy said prosecutor Dr Rogers had been misleading about the evidence provided by that expert in her closing address.
'You're meant to have regard to the actual evidence,' Mr Mandy said.

Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates

Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.

www.dailymail.co.uk

What is the reason?! Maybe it's missed in this blog.

First they say "some patients can have different reactions to the toxins, with some becoming sicker than others who had eaten the same amount." OK so she ate about as much as Gail, up to a whole BW as that's what the prosecution are saying. Poor Gail died, Erin barely was sick.

"the effect the of poison on a person could depend on factors including how much poison they had consumed and the concentration of poison they had." Either she made up one big poison duxelle mix, in that case she should have consumed as much as Gail OR her duxelle had a different amount (or none) which the only way I can see that happening is it being a deliberate adding.

 

[katydid23]

2m ago

Defence addresses Asian grocer​

​

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy says he skipped over some previous events, and goes back in time to address the issue of the Asian grocer.

He says records show that Erin Patterson was living in Mount Waverley at the time, and says Ms Patterson's daughter remembers going with her mother to an Asian grocer.

Mr Mandy says his client's accounts are consistent with the items found in those stores.

"She's not making it up, she is obviously familiar with the packaging," he says.

He argues it is clear that his client bought dried mushrooms at the store.

Surviving lunch guest 'honestly mistaken', defence tells Erin Patterson jury — as it happened

Erin Patterson's defence lawyer is continuing his closing address to the jury after eight weeks of evidence in the triple-murder trial.

www.abc.net.au

Oh My Lord---the defense is going with the funny smelling Asian mushrooms as being a true story.

IMO there was a lot of evidence put forward showing those were lies about that Asian Market --that she originally just said Woolies, but added the Asian market in later she couldn't even place which town it was in,and named several different ones--- that no other people were ever poisoned by Asian mushrooms from those suburbs, and the health department put lots of effort and resources into tracking down that market, unsuccessfully. But the D now says ' It is clear that his client told the truth about that.'

 

[MsMarple]

now02.09 EDT
Defence tells court Patterson’s age and weight possible factors in her not getting as sick as her guests

Colin Mandy SC says the jury has heard expert evidence that people can experience death cap mushroom poisoning with variation in severity.

A person can experience a “grade one” severity of the illness after eating the same meal as someone who experiences a more severe illness.

He says Dimitri Gerostamoulos, Victoria’s chief toxicologist, said factors like weight and age can influence how a person reacts to the toxins in death cap mushrooms.

He says Patterson weighed over 100kg at the time of the lunch and was significantly younger than her guests.

 

[drsleuth]

Key Event
9m ago

Defence describes factors explaining Erin Patterson's more mild illness​

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy says that according to the literature available, the degree of someone's illness after eating death cap mushrooms depends on:

1. 1.How much poison was in their portion
2. 2.How much they consumed
3. 3.How much was absorbed by the body
4. 4.Weight
5. 5.Age
6. 6.A person's toxic response

Mr Mandy then provides reasons for why Erin Patterson may not have gotten as ill. He notes:

1. 1.The dried death cap mushrooms may have been unevenly spread in the mushroom paste
2. 2.Erin only ate half of her portion
3. 3.Erin vomited after the lunch, reducing the amount in her body
4. 4.Erin was over 100kgs at the time and had more body weight
5. 5.Erin was younger than the rest of her lunch guests

5m ago

Defence says no evidence Erin Patterson's illness was incongruous to lunch guests​

By Judd Boaz​

The defence argues that it is possible that Erin Patterson could have started experiencing symptoms earlier than her guests, and that there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

He also notes that the only report the jury has of the timing of Ms Patterson's illness comes from Simon Patterson, who said he "vaguely" remembers her mentioning 4pm or 4:30pm.

"Vaguely," Mr Mandy repeats.

Surviving lunch guest 'honestly mistaken', defence tells Erin Patterson jury — as it happened

Erin Patterson's defence lawyer is continuing his closing address to the jury after eight weeks of evidence in the triple-murder trial.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Gavel Rash]

Didn’t Erin say she didn’t taste the duxelles again after adding the stinky dehydrated mushrooms? Things aren’t making sense, is Mandy just throwing out everything and hoping something will stick?

Yes! she emphatically stated she did not re taste the duxelle after adding the dried mushrooms