VERDICT WATCH Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #16 *Arrest*

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  • #481
Exaggerating your symptoms is not the same as lying about your symptoms.

As far as this case is concerned it has not been proved that she wasn't poisoned. There was a study included in the trial that conceded that some people can only have gastro-like symptoms in response to ingesting DC mushrooms, depending on age, weight and tolerance to the toxins.
BBM

Can you point me back to the source for this [the media mention of the study]? Or at least who was giving evidence when it was introduced.
Whilst I recall some evidence agreeing with the defence that the degree of poisoning would likely be affected by factors such as weight, age etc, I don't recall seeing in any of the selection of reporting I've read that there was actually a study produced to the court.

Would be interesting to check back and read it. I have only come across suggestions that the degree of liver damage would vary from my own research.
 
  • #482
IIRC, in cross of Dimitri Gerostamoulous the defence came up with a German research paper showing there were degrees of severity of death cap poisoning, and DG agreed that was the case.

The defence did not come up with their own expert. On redirect Dr Rogers asked him whether the more “mildly” affected people would still have serious health effects, and he said yes.

I don’t recall any expert saying that there wouldn’t be biochemical signs of liver damage.
 
  • #483
BBM

Can you point me back to the source for this [the media mention of the study]? Or at least who was giving evidence when it was introduced.
Whilst I recall some evidence agreeing with the defence that the degree of poisoning would likely be affected by factors such as weight, age etc, I don't recall seeing in any of the selection of reporting I've read that there was actually a study produced to the court.

Would be interesting to check back and read it. I have only come across suggestions that the degree of liver damage would vary from my own research.
a bunch of sources say one or two or in this instance, a half can kill you:



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Death Cap Mushroom Poisoning​

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WebMD
https://www.webmd.com › first-aid › deathcap-mushro...




Aug 22, 2024 — Death cap mushrooms are poisonous regardless of how they're prepared. The amatoxins in death caps are very stable and are not affected by heat ...
People also ask




See more

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New hope for an antidote to death cap mushrooms and ...​

1751054712868.webp
NPR
https://www.npr.org › goatsandsoda › 2023/05/17 › ne...




May 17, 2023 — It's one of the most poisonous mushrooms in the world. Eating only half a cap can shut down your liver – and if you don't get medical attention ...



not sure if you could be OK if you, say, just had a trace amount from a dirty utensil... and then, in the wild, mushrooms are variable but everybody else got sick and 3 died so....
 

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  • #484

This isn’t the original paper but, interestingly, elevated liver functions (which Erin didn’t have) are part of the actual diagnostic criteria for death cap ingestion.

Moreover, early onset of diarrhoea (within 8 hours of ingestion, that Erin claimed she had) is a very very poor prognostic indicator - and clinicians should consider early liver transplant if that occurs.
 
  • #485

This isn’t the original paper but, interestingly, elevated liver functions (which Erin didn’t have) are part of the actual diagnostic criteria for death cap ingestion.

Moreover, early onset of diarrhoea (within 8 hours of ingestion, that Erin claimed she had) is a very very poor prognostic indicator - and clinicians should consider early liver transplant if that occurs.
EP is a very, very poor diarrhea actress.

Jmo
 
  • #486
EP is a very, very poor diarrhea actress.

Jmo
Yeah, based on the (supposed) onset of her symptoms the usual clinical course is for death.

You’d think, with her so-called attention to detail, she would have researched that a bit?
 
  • #487
As far as this case is concerned it has not been proved that she wasn't poisoned.
Yes, in this case, since there is only her word for it, it cannot be proven.

However, it doesn't matter. Everything in this trial - any trial - is about proving the criminal charges. And she is not charged with poisoning herself...

The fact that she did not present the same level of symptoms as her guests, and that she showed no concern that her alleged symptoms could be as dangerous to her, is just part of the evidence, which can be proven by her own testimony as well as reliable witnesses. As such, it is part of the evidence which is being used to build the case against her.

And nothing in a criminal trial is about proving without a doubt. It is about 'reasonable doubt'.
 
  • #488
IIRC, in cross of Dimitri Gerostamoulous the defence came up with a German research paper showing there were degrees of severity of death cap poisoning, and DG agreed that was the case.

The defence did not come up with their own expert. On redirect Dr Rogers asked him whether the more “mildly” affected people would still have serious health effects, and he said yes.

I don’t recall any expert saying that there wouldn’t be biochemical signs of liver damage.


This isn’t the original paper but, interestingly, elevated liver functions (which Erin didn’t have) are part of the actual diagnostic criteria for death cap ingestion.

Moreover, early onset of diarrhoea (within 8 hours of ingestion, that Erin claimed she had) is a very very poor prognostic indicator - and clinicians should consider early liver transplant if that occurs.
Thanks Jake

I wonder if Mr Mandy actually submitted any of the research papers into evidence or whether he was just getting DG to agree that the consensus amongst experts is that severity outcomes varied. It's so difficult to work out what exactly was said in court given how the various live feeds vary in their paraphrasing.

To my mind there is a world of difference between surviving with 'mild' symptoms that means you spend time in hospital [not just an overnight on obs and drips], but eventually make a full recovery and only having gastro symptoms - which can be very unpleasant at the time but don't actually effect any organ damage. Does that suggest that some people's intestines don't actually absorb amatoxins & they pass straight through?? I also can't see why weight would be a factor. 🤷‍♂️

Just my own ignorance
 
  • #489
Thanks Jake

I wonder if Mr Mandy actually submitted any of the research papers into evidence or whether he was just getting DG to agree that the consensus amongst experts is that severity outcomes varied. It's so difficult to work out what exactly was said in court given how the various live feeds vary in their paraphrasing.

To my mind there is a world of difference between surviving with 'mild' symptoms that means you spend time in hospital [not just an overnight on obs and drips], but eventually make a full recovery and only having gastro symptoms - which can be very unpleasant at the time but don't actually effect any organ damage. Does that suggest that some people's intestines don't actually absorb amatoxins & they pass straight through?? I also can't see why weight would be a factor. 🤷‍♂️

Just my own ignorance
Good point. I don’t think Mandy actually submitted the paper, just discussed to it emphasise that some people were sicker than others.
 
  • #490
BBM

Can you point me back to the source for this [the media mention of the study]? Or at least who was giving evidence when it was introduced.
Whilst I recall some evidence agreeing with the defence that the degree of poisoning would likely be affected by factors such as weight, age etc, I don't recall seeing in any of the selection of reporting I've read that there was actually a study produced to the court.

Would be interesting to check back and read it. I have only come across suggestions that the degree of liver damage would vary from my own research.

I was coming to ask for the same thing.

(By the way @Spectrix I think if you look at @MaxDecimus13's other posts you'll see they are by no means batting by hook or by crook for EPs innocence, just trying to view this through a strictly legal lens.)

I can absolutely believe that a certain type of personality could engage in [what the rest of us know is] appallingly selfish behaviour in carrying out a cover-up essentially to "save face".

Whether that is to save face because they are innocent, or to save face because they are guilty would look the same.

So for me, it's the pre-dinner actions that speak the loudest.
 
  • #491
ok so now does this mean tuesday they get the case? cos he lost maybe 5 minutes?

I'd guess he is just trying to get past the weekend... they got Friday afternoon off. 😉

Let's see if we get a brief wrap up from him on Monday morning and then they can be sequestered.

.......... This might be over by Tuesday night??
 
  • #492
Bring on Monday I say
 
  • #493
The summing up has taken so long. Even my interest has fizzled a bit
 
  • #494
  • #495
I know it can't be done during trials as it's not legal procedure but I wish a transcript of the full judge's remarks were uploaded at the end of each day so we could have a better sense of what was actually said and not filtered by the msm
 
  • #496
I find it difficult to believe that someone (Erin) who lied so frequently wants us to believe that all the other witnesses were either lying or had faulty memories.

I find it difficult to believe that someone (Erin) who can remember what day of the week a particular date fell on, could not remember which grocery store she (supposedly) purchased mushrooms from.

I find it difficult to believe that someone (Erin), who told one of the witnesses that she might be changing her phone number due to being security conscious, would give the police a phone which was not secured by a PIN.

I find a person who said she wanted to see if the police were 'silly enough' to have left the seized Phone connected to the internet, and then proceeded to perform a remote factory reset of such phone, to be both arrogant and brazen.

Furthermore, I find the fact that she searched for deathcap mushrooms online and then, moments later, proceeded to order a nourishing and healthy meal for herself and her children, quite creepy.

And the judge...I've been a juror on two, admittedly much shorter trials, but in neither case did the judge go through the particular pieces of evidence piece by piece, saying why the jury should discount them. To my eye, it's almost as if he has become part of the defense team. And five days of 'giving instructions' - is this a Guinness World Record?

As a common citizen, I find the judge's behaviour rather disturbing.
I so agree with everything you wrote!
 
  • #497
I find it difficult to believe that someone (Erin) who lied so frequently wants us to believe that all the other witnesses were either lying or had faulty memories.

I find it difficult to believe that someone (Erin) who can remember what day of the week a particular date fell on, could not remember which grocery store she (supposedly) purchased mushrooms from.

I find it difficult to believe that someone (Erin), who told one of the witnesses that she might be changing her phone number due to being security conscious, would give the police a phone which was not secured by a PIN.

I find a person who said she wanted to see if the police were 'silly enough' to have left the seized Phone connected to the internet, and then proceeded to perform a remote factory reset of such phone, to be both arrogant and brazen.

Furthermore, I find the fact that she searched for deathcap mushrooms online and then, moments later, proceeded to order a nourishing and healthy meal for herself and her children, quite creepy.

And the judge...I've been a juror on two, admittedly much shorter trials, but in neither case did the judge go through the particular pieces of evidence piece by piece, saying why the jury should discount them. To my eye, it's almost as if he has become part of the defense team. And five days of 'giving instructions' - is this a Guinness World Record?

As a common citizen, I find the judge's behaviour rather disturbing.

YES to all of this! I'm very disturbed by Erin AND the judge at this point.
 
  • #498
Not only is this not a strong possible motive, the prosecution haven't come close to proving it.

I would hazard a guess that if I was given the phones of 95% of the people on here I would find instances of people talking in a very negative way about people that they actually like. You certainly would on
That's your opinion. In mine, I've seen enough true crime cases/trials to know that it doesn't take much in some people's minds to justify murder. Any slight to them is enough. (They call it narcissistic injury). It's not always about money-life insurance, sometimes it's jealousy, child custody, power, eliminating witnesses, or harboring a grudge. Infamy is another motive for murder. I think she held way more hatred for them than just her online posts. Her posts are just the reflection of it.
 
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  • #499
I think this is a false dichotomy and they are two different things. The one thing we know from this trial with certainty is that she has lied on numerous occasions. She has clearly lied in some of her accounts with professionals.

However, those lies in themselves aren't sufficient to assert her guilt. As I've pointed out, there are other possible and even plausible motives for many of the lies.
Yet how many murderers/criminals do you know who are honest? There's good reason for her to lie- to not get caught.
 
  • #500
A lot of people might talk rubbish about their families but they don't end up with three of them dead after poisoning them. Erin is one of the rare ones who takes her hate/grudges to an extreme due to whatever personality disorder(s) she has - in my opinion.
Yes, I dispute Max's allegations that it's 95%. Even if I'm in a fight with them, I don't trash talk my relatives online. That's just idiotic to do so and think it wouldn't get back to them. There's only one relative of mine that I badmouth to anyone, and it's because he did actually assault me. And I still haven't posted his name.
 
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