VERDICT WATCH Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #16 *Arrest*

[ch_13]

As I opined at the outset, this is a tech-heavy trial and my concern has been that the jurors could be bamboozled by it.

However, I did not expect the judge to methodically dismiss a lot of it. His instruction that it was up to the jurors to either “accept or reject” expert evidence, saying they did not need to accept it more than they would other evidence simply because it was provided by an expert, is bizarre IMO.

Under what circumstances would a juror feel capable of rejecting the evidence of an expert witness, such as a doctor? Nuts!

In fairness, this isn't something this judge made up. It's a standard instruction given to juries about expert testimony. For example, here's part of the default instruction in the New York state courts:

Ordinarily, a witness is limited to testifying about facts and is not permitted to give an opinion. Where, however, scientific, medical, technical or other specialized knowledge will help the jury understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue, a witness with expertise in a specialized field may render opinions about such matters.

You should evaluate the testimony of any such witness just as you would the testimony of any other witness. You may accept or reject such testimony, in whole or in part, just as you may with respect to the testimony of any other witness.

Advanced Evidence Spring 2023 (4 credit) : Standard jury instruction in New York on expert testimony | H2O

opencasebook.org

Other jurisdictions have similar wording.

 

[Moll]

But she would have or shoukd have known there would be no more DC's to be found at that time of year.

And if there were, they might kill her.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm presuming she has admitted that she made at least three pasties more than she needed for the number of guests? One in the bin, and two she allegedly pulled apart and fed to her children because she allegedly didn't feel like cooking for them.

Why did she keep the two extra ones she gave them, because she wouldn't have known she wouldn't feel like cooking when she kept them, and why would she have gone to the trouble of making two for her children, who she knew did not like mushrooms, knowing she would have to scrape them off?

It doesn't make sense that she wouldn't just keep the fresh individual steaks to cook for them. Reheated cooked meat is going to dry out. From her son's description it didn't sound like it was reheated dry leathery steak.

If she is guilty, I think she came unstuck because she always wanted people to think she made one big beef wellington, hence restocking her fridge with extra pastry she wouldn't have had to use if she hadn't made individual pasties. I don't think she anticipated her guests would survive long enough to describe what they had eaten, and that is why she would have had to scrape off the mushrooms for her children, if it was one log.

JMO

 

[Moll]

In fairness, this isn't something this judge made up. It's a standard instruction given to juries about expert testimony. For example, here's part of the default instruction in the New York state courts:

Ordinarily, a witness is limited to testifying about facts and is not permitted to give an opinion. Where, however, scientific, medical, technical or other specialized knowledge will help the jury understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue, a witness with expertise in a specialized field may render opinions about such matters.

You should evaluate the testimony of any such witness just as you would the testimony of any other witness. You may accept or reject such testimony, in whole or in part, just as you may with respect to the testimony of any other witness.

Advanced Evidence Spring 2023 (4 credit) : Standard jury instruction in New York on expert testimony | H2O

opencasebook.org

Other jurisdictions have similar wording.

Thank you for this. There is similar advice for England and Wales.
So much depends on the way this sounds in the courtroom, I think people may be getting unduly anxious. The jury has all the evidence. If, say, they look at the new things EP said under cross-examination that were not rebutted, surely they will be as unimpressed by her inconsistency as Websleuthers are.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If she walks, she will be more (allegedly) arrogant than ever. MOO

If she walks everyone will be too scared to hang out with her so that'll be interesting!

 

[Monstradamus]

I'm presuming she has admitted that she made at least three pasties more than she needed for the number of guests? One in the bin, and two she allegedly pulled apart and fed to her children because she allegedly didn't feel like cooking for them.

Why did she keep the two extra ones she gave them, because she wouldn't have known she wouldn't feel like cooking when she kept them, and why would she have gone to the trouble of making two for her children, who she knew did not like mushrooms, knowing she would have to scrape them off?

It doesn't make sense that she wouldn't just keep the fresh individual steaks to cook for them. Reheated cooked meat is going to dry out. From her son's description it didn't sound like it was reheated dry leathery steak.

If she is guilty, I think she came unstuck because she always wanted people to think she made one big beef wellington, hence restocking her fridge with extra pastry she wouldn't have had to use if she hadn't made individual pasties. I don't think she anticipated her guests would survive long enough to describe what they had eaten, and that is why she would have had to scrape off the mushrooms for her children, if it was one log.

JMO

Those children went nowhere near the BWs, imo.
Leftover eye fillets for dinner the next night. No scraping, no pastry, no mushrooms.
MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I'm presuming she has admitted that she made at least three pasties more than she needed for the number of guests? One in the bin, and two she allegedly pulled apart and fed to her children because she allegedly didn't feel like cooking for them.

Why did she keep the two extra ones she gave them, because she wouldn't have known she wouldn't feel like cooking when she kept them, and why would she have gone to the trouble of making two for her children, who she knew did not like mushrooms, knowing she would have to scrape them off?

It doesn't make sense that she wouldn't just keep the fresh individual steaks to cook for them. Reheated cooked meat is going to dry out. From her son's description it didn't sound like it was reheated dry leathery steak.

If she is guilty, I think she came unstuck because she always wanted people to think she made one big beef wellington, hence restocking her fridge with extra pastry she wouldn't have had to use if she hadn't made individual pasties. I don't think she anticipated her guests would survive long enough to describe what they had eaten, and that is why she would have had to scrape off the mushrooms for her children, if it was one log.

JMO

That's a good point!

Perhaps she always imagined nobody would live to tell the tale that they had individual BW pies and not a slice from one large one.

It's never been rigorously analysed why the numbers don't add up either.

Four guests plus one for SB with mushrooms in (five). One for herself with no DC mushrooms (six). Somewhere it was said she made eight. Whut!? Three left over BWs?
Scraps for the children... what scraps? The scraps of SB's uneaten BW?
Then what went in the bin?
Where did SB's uneaten BW go? That's not 'scraps' that's an entire meal.
Are we to assume compulsive over-eater EP threw away a perfectly decent whole untouched BW pie?
Are we to assume EP defined a perfectly entire BW pie as 'scraps'?
Why didn't EP make BWs for her beloved children whilst she was at this hard labour task?
If EP didn't make them BWs as they don't like mushrooms why did she think they'd eat 'scraps' of same?
Make it make sense... :/

JMO MOO

 

[JBowie]

Maybe they did seize it and found no phone in it, but didn't introduce that into evidence. Did Erin claim to put it in a skip bin in her cross?

I don't know what to make of this, other than I expect it's all lies:

Erin Patterson gave evidence that she didn't know where Phone A was when police conducted a search of her home.

She told the jury Phone A went into a skip bin, which is something she occasionally did.

She also mentioned feeling puzzled when she noticed Phone A hadn't been seized during the police search of her home.

Judge continues instructions for jury in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The judge in Erin Patterson's triple-murder trial is continuing to deliver his final instructions to the jury. Ms Patterson is accused of deliberately poisoning her relatives by serving them a meal containing death cap mushrooms. Follow the proceedings as it happened.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Kemug]

My thoughts exactly. Also It doesn't seem that the police really knew what needed to be searched for and properly catalogued / collected during the house search. Same with the blender that Scooby-Doo just mentioned. IMO

I should think she used a mortar and pestle, rather than a blender. Easier to say she dropped them and they broke. But I speculate.

 

[JBowie]

In fairness, this isn't something this judge made up. It's a standard instruction given to juries about expert testimony. For example, here's part of the default instruction in the New York state courts:

Ordinarily, a witness is limited to testifying about facts and is not permitted to give an opinion. Where, however, scientific, medical, technical or other specialized knowledge will help the jury understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue, a witness with expertise in a specialized field may render opinions about such matters.

You should evaluate the testimony of any such witness just as you would the testimony of any other witness. You may accept or reject such testimony, in whole or in part, just as you may with respect to the testimony of any other witness.

Advanced Evidence Spring 2023 (4 credit) : Standard jury instruction in New York on expert testimony | H2O

opencasebook.org

Other jurisdictions have similar wording.

It still makes no sense to me. Again, if a doctor gives medical evidence who, other than perhaps another doctor, can decide to reject it and on what grounds?

Patterson reportedly told the medicos in the hospital that she thought their diagnosis was wrong and thereby makes my point. What the hell would she know about medical diagnoses?

 

[Kittybunny]

Far be it from me to criticize another country’s legal system, but I find this incredibly lengthy summary and interpretation of the proceedings mind-blowing, especially with the bending over backwards to give EP the benefit of every doubt.

I feel this judge has raised the bar from asking the jury to convict beyond a reasonable doubt to asking them to convict only if there is no, none, absolutely zero doubt whatsoever, including even if they think there is a 0.00000001 chance an alien came down and put death cap mushrooms in the lunch.

Before these instructions, I was pretty sure the jury would convict - now, I will be shocked if they do.

I hope I’m wrong.

 

[dalsglen]

Guys, ive been checking the daily updates. Next blimming week, let it be a "felony friday" when I'm home.

 

[Detechtive]

I'm presuming she has admitted that she made at least three pasties more than she needed for the number of guests? One in the bin, and two she allegedly pulled apart and fed to her children because she allegedly didn't feel like cooking for them.

Why did she keep the two extra ones she gave them, because she wouldn't have known she wouldn't feel like cooking when she kept them, and why would she have gone to the trouble of making two for her children, who she knew did not like mushrooms, knowing she would have to scrape them off?

It doesn't make sense that she wouldn't just keep the fresh individual steaks to cook for them. Reheated cooked meat is going to dry out. From her son's description it didn't sound like it was reheated dry leathery steak.

If she is guilty, I think she came unstuck because she always wanted people to think she made one big beef wellington, hence restocking her fridge with extra pastry she wouldn't have had to use if she hadn't made individual pasties. I don't think she anticipated her guests would survive long enough to describe what they had eaten, and that is why she would have had to scrape off the mushrooms for her children, if it was one log.

JMO

She has only admitted to making 6 BW's.

 

[Detechtive]

I don't know what to make of this, other than I expect it's all lies:

Erin Patterson gave evidence that she didn't know where Phone A was when police conducted a search of her home.

She told the jury Phone A went into a skip bin, which is something she occasionally did.

She also mentioned feeling puzzled when she noticed Phone A hadn't been seized during the police search of her home.

Judge continues instructions for jury in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The judge in Erin Patterson's triple-murder trial is continuing to deliver his final instructions to the jury. Ms Patterson is accused of deliberately poisoning her relatives by serving them a meal containing death cap mushrooms. Follow the proceedings as it happened.

www.abc.net.au

Thanks for that. Good point! Inconsistencies yet again. This isn't normal "memory loss from events passed". You know where you put your phone, Erin!

 

[Salah11]

I am just growing frustrated by the day.


She brought mushrooms from an Asian green grocery store ( let’s just skip the racism first) and she couldn’t remember where this mythical shop was. Nobody else got sick at all because they are death caps, so it would have made national news if people were dropping dead from buying mushrooms in a local store.


I mean this alone is just absolute Hogwash and yet here we are.

MOO

 

[Sarahlou]

If she walks everyone will be too scared to hang out with her so that'll be interesting!

If she walks then the jury would surely feel OK with going for dinner at Erin's?

(Yeah I'm being silly, I'm getting impatient waiting for this trial to finish!)

 

[Tortoise]

She has only admitted to making 6 BW's.

Well then that's very odd. Seems she didn't have two extras to scrape off.

 

[Detechtive]

Well then that's very odd. Seems she didn't have two extras to scrape off.

So she bought 10 steaks (5 x double packs). So there were 10.

She cooked 6 for "the fatal lunch".

So there is possibly 4 left over.

I personally think she probably practised on 2 perhaps, with all that pastry and mushrooms she bought in the week prior. That would leave 2 to cook the kids for "leftovers". IMO

 

[Kemug]

OMG Justice Beale is *over-riding* expert opinion now?
So, what is the point of a court hearing, expert witnesses, professional opinion?

RSBM
Look at all the time and trouble everyone would have been spared if Justice Beale had just said "Not Guilty" 2 months ago.

 

[JBowie]

RSBM
Look at all the time and trouble everyone would have been spared if Justice Beale had just said "Not Guilty" 2 months ago.

This is what can happen when the prosecution cannot provide a strong feasible motive.

Regardless of what the law says about motives, in my strong opinion human beings naturally want to know why things are/were done, especially when they are sitting in judgement of the action(s).