VERDICT WATCH Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #16 *Arrest*

[jesse]

Also, EP is a wealthy woman. Her children can eat well. Why on earth would she be scraping bits of food off other people's meals for them to eat pieces and scraps? Doesn't add up.

JMO MOO

I'm in no way defending her (because i don't think this is what happened), but you can be wealthy and not believe in wasting food. Especially if an entire BW was untouched and would be wasted .

 

[Lisa4]

Yes, agree. Meticulous planning pre-lunch, very proactive. Didn't expect such a quick diagnosis. Didn't expect the spotlight would be on her so quickly. Then she goes into reactive mode, and begins to make mistakes. The plan wasn't working. Starts telling lies to conceal the truth. Then tells more lies to cover the lies. I'm still not comfortable with the fact that she withheld pertinent information from medical staff whilst her lunch guests were dying, delaying possible diagnosis and faster treatment.
MOO

BBM
On the topic of manslaughter, there's two solid cases could be made here:

• Negligent to serve untasted foraged mushrooms
• Reckless to withhold information.

 

[jesse]

BBM
On the topic of manslaughter, there's two solid cases could be made here:

• Negligent to serve untasted foraged mushrooms
• Reckless to withhold information.

I'm pretty surprised they didn't make manslaughter an option. Anyone have thoughts on why they didn't?

 

[Anika]

He had already declined the invitation ("I don't feel comfortable"), and she doubled down to try and guilt him into attending the night before, by telling him she had spent a small fortune on the meal, and there was an important medical issue to be discussed. No reply from SP, which enraged her, imo.

I wonder if she anticipated that the guilt-tripping had been successful, and his was the meal they found in the trash. If I recall correctly, it was found to be poisoned (what they found in the trash), and she said it was her leftovers, but that dish takes a lot of advance prep, so she surely would have to have made one for him, if anticipating his attendance. Where's that one, if not tossed out? Perhaps this allegation was already addressed; I'll admit it's a lot of detail, and I may have missed portions.

 

[Lisa4]

She carefully researched, identified, picked DC mushrooms, carefully stored them, dehydrated them, powdered them, carefully added them to five out of six BW pies, carefully crafted a story to lure her guests, carefully served the poisonous meal up in a smoke and mirrors dinner plate party trick, carefully didn't kill herself, her children, any other persons around her house, or her dog. Then carefully hid her phone handsets and managed to factory reset ones that even LE had in possession. ALLEGEDLY

She's a pretty cautious and calculated person IMO.

If she's innocent then she's really reckless and careless and choatic disorganised which begs only one question - how come she never 'accidentally' poisoned anyone sooner in her home what with DC mushrooms lounging around in tupperware and on the dehydrator and being processed in her kitchen etc?

She forgot to factor in one permutation IMO - the notion that people would come to medical attention prior the DC evidence passing out of their bodies and prior them being actually dead. A flaw in her plan, it was not air tight. She must be kicking herself.

JMO MOO

to all above.

She forgot to factor in one permutation IMO - the notion that people would come to medical attention prior the DC evidence passing out of their bodies and prior them being actually dead. A flaw in her plan, it was not air tight. She must be kicking herself.

BBM
If Don Patterson had not eaten more than his share and been so ill that they called an ambulance the very next morning... who knows. I think she nearly got away with it.

 

[Bats]

I'm pretty surprised they didn't make manslaughter an option. Anyone have thoughts on why they didn't?

My feeling is that the whole prosecution case was to prove intent. Her lies were the main focus of the trial.

IMO, the prosecution can't really focus on the intent but also that it may have been a careless accident (manslaughter) at the same time.

 

[Lisa4]

@Bats please can you explain that a bit more for this ignorant bod?

 

[musicaljoke]

How could they not be? The toxins seep into the meat. The BW's were baked in the oven. There's no way that scraping off the mushrooms, or even slicing off the outer layer of beef would make the leftover BW's safe, and it's not a risk Erin would take with her kids or her dog. Therefore, she had to have fed her kids different beef.

But this is an assumption that the judge asked the jury not to make. Do we really know that the toxins would permeate the meat beyond the outside thin layer? The experts did not say specifically that the toxins would permeate the meat. They did testify that there were toxins in the sample of meat, but that could have been just from the outside where the mushrooms had made contact.

"No matter how long you soak it, most marinades won’t penetrate more than the outside eighth of an inch." The truth about marinades: Most are a waste of your time

 

[Lisa4]

I wonder if she anticipated that the guilt-tripping had been successful, and his was the meal they found in the trash. If I recall correctly, it was found to be poisoned (what they found in the trash), and she said it was her leftovers, but that dish takes a lot of advance prep, so she surely would have to have made one for him, if anticipating his attendance. Where's that one, if not tossed out? Perhaps this allegation was already addressed; I'll admit it's a lot of detail, and I may have missed portions.

Went in the bin at the Kee Woo Rup servo ?

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Yet carried on with life as normal on the Sunday. Apparently immune to DC poisoning. A true miracle, imo

St Erin of Leongatha
Or
St Erin of the Asian Grocery

 

[LinasK]

But this is an assumption that the judge asked the jury not to make. Do we really know that the toxins would permeate the meat beyond the outside thin layer? The experts did not say specifically that the toxins would permeate the meat. They did testify that there were toxins in the sample of meat, but that could have been just from the outside where the mushrooms had made contact.

"No matter how long you soak it, most marinades won’t penetrate more than the outside eighth of an inch." The truth about marinades: Most are a waste of your time

A marinade is NOT a toxin. And yes, experts testified that the toxins would permeate the meat beyond the outside layer. Ask Katydid. She has the specifics.

 

[Bats]

My feeling is that the whole prosecution case was to prove intent. Her lies were the main focus of the trial.

IMO, the prosecution can't really focus on the intent but also that it may have been a careless accident (manslaughter) at the same time.

Sure, no probs. All my opinion.

The focus of the whole trial and the prosecution's case was to prove murder - that she intentionally poisoned her guests.

For manslaughter, you would be removing the intent. However, a lot of the evidence presented has been to prove intent. "How could she have accidentally poisoned them!"

This scenario can work in some murder trials but it doesn't really work for this one. For example, if someone has been bashed, it may be difficult to prove that the accused intended to kill the victim so a manslaughter option can be given to the jury.

 

[SouthAussie]

My feeling is that the whole prosecution case was to prove intent. Her lies were the main focus of the trial.

IMO, the prosecution can't really focus on the intent but also that it may have been a careless accident (manslaughter) at the same time.

In the Greg Lynn trial both sides agreed that manslaughter should come off the table. I think both the prosecution and defence have to agree? Maybe similar happened in this trial. The prosecution saying it was murder, the defence saying it was a 'non-negligent' accident?


Greg Lynn trial:
However, by the end of five weeks of evidence, the prosecution and defence had taken their cases in such different directions that an option of a manslaughter conviction no longer fit with narratives being advanced by either side.

The reason why manslaughter wasn't an option for the Greg Lynn murder trial jury

At the end of a five-week trial, prosecution and defence arguments differed so vastly that the jury were left with just two options: murder or acquittal.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Lisa4]

Sure, no probs. All my opinion.

The focus of the whole trial and the prosecution's case was to prove murder - that she intentionally poisoned her guests.

For manslaughter, you would be removing the intent. However, a lot of the evidence presented has been to prove intent. "How could she have accidentally poisoned them!"

This scenario can work in some murder trials but it doesn't really work for this one. For example, if someone has been bashed, it may be difficult to prove that the accused intended to kill the victim so a manslaughter option can be given to the jury.

Ah yes got it. Thank you for that @Bats

No grey area for this case.

 

[Bats]

I think both the prosecution and defence have to agree? Maybe similar happened in this trial.

Yes, I think that's correct South that both sides would have to agree. I think the defence would have raised this at some point pre-trial as we didn't here that the option was taken away from the jury.

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, I think that's correct South that both sides would have to agree. I think the defence would have raised this at some point pre-trial as we didn't here that the option was taken away from the jury.

Yes, that is my guess too. A pre-trial thing and manslaughter was never an option.

imo

 

[MrJ]

It's just passed 10:15 here. I wonder if we will get a verdict today

 

[Walk A Mile]

Something I can't get past...

I believe it has been firmly established that death caps can't sneak into commercial supply chains.

No other cases of death cap poisoning were recorded in Victoria in 2023 (that I'm aware of). If they were accidentally sold through a retail store, (the mythical Asian grocer) I'd expect other cases, especially as they were purchased weeks before they were used (mushroom sales were down after the poisonings, but were normal until the story hit the news).

I can't accept that there was just one single contaminated package on the shelf.

I also believe an expert testified about the strong smell of dehydrated death caps. I believe in her testimony, the accused noted the strong smell of the mushrooms she purchased from the unknown Asian grocer.

And this is a real sticking point for me, because I don't believe for a second that the Asian grocery store mushrooms were death caps. It is clear to me that the foraged mushrooms were the death caps.

I believe the accused lied about the purchased mushrooms having a string odour. The foraged mushrooms would have had the strong smell. The foraged mushrooms were the clear source of the toxin.

The accused's testimony is years removed from her acknowledged lies/omissions that occurred in panic at the time of the event. This testimony seems to be a calculated lie told under oath to absolve herself of responsibility for serving foraged mushrooms by blaming the purchased mushrooms.

I can't reconcile this with remorse or regret over honest mistakes made at the time, both in feeding the mushrooms to the victims and in not being forthcoming about foraging in the immediate aftermath.

Welcoming corrections if I've made errors in my recollection of facts.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

The lab tested a sample of the meat and found the toxins present. However, the experts did not address the question of whether or not the meat would be permeated because they hadn't been asked that specific detail. It was possible that the toxins were just on the outside of the meat.

Yes, if one ate the leftover meat they would be poisoned due to the known presence of toxins on the outside. However, if the server cut off the outer layer before serving, would toxins still be present? Saying that there would still be toxins is speculative because there was no evidence presented to support that assumption.

So the judge was actually correct to point that out. The comment was regarding the presence of toxins within the meat, vs on the surface of the meat.

I am curious how knowing that bit of info is significant in the events that transpired. I don't see that it is either helpful nor unhelpful for the defence.

I don't believe for one moment that Erin gave her kids leftover meat that had been anywhere near the Death Caps.

I believe that she gave them a separate serve of meat that she didn't use in the Beef Wellingtons.

 

[Scuffy35]

A marinade is NOT a toxin. And yes, experts testified that the toxins would permeate the meat beyond the outside layer. Ask Katydid. She has the specifics.

I am quite sure that there was no expert that testified that would permeate the meat beyond the outside layer.

I commented upthread that the jury should be able to use common sense or life experiences to address this question themselves rather than needing an expert witness to confirm everything. It is the same for the lack of expert witness on what impact the vomiting would have had.

I theorised earlier that if she only scraped the mushroom paste off, then there would still be a smearing of it left on the meat, even if it had not penetrated the meat. One would have to wash and scrub the meat to get that smearing off.

It was only a nurse that testified that she told Erin that the mushroom toxin would have seeped into the meat. The doctor that testified said he told Erin that her kids could be scared or dead, did not specifically testify about seepage. In any case, the prosecution would have needed an expert that was specifically knowledgeable about DC toxins permeating meat. If there was none with preexisting knowledge, couldn't they have performed the specific testing, peer reviewed, and had those results submitted as evidence?

The expert that found the DC toxin through chemical testing, could not determine if the toxin was specifically in the meat as it was mixed with the mushroom paste when he tested it.