Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #3

[Ellery84]

It says “may not need a liver transplant”, so I misunderstood.

Right… yeah I’d say that’s “newspaper talk” for “we at the newspaper don’t really know…”

IMO

All we know for now is that he is alive. And the source of that is MSM. That message is clear.

And thank God for that. It’s truly a miracle.

 

[Bats]

Thinking of Occam's razor ... wondering how many people in Australia actually make Beef Wellington? I would expect very few! Why was such an elaborate, complicated dish prepared? Hmmm....

 

[JLZ]

It does seem highly convoluted and improbable (Imo) but I like your post nonetheless! One question that arose for me when reading - I always figured the hospital would be able to confirm scientifically (not just from the victims' statements) what they actually ate in, say, the hours before their hospital admissions. But have just realised haven't really thought through how that might occur.

As I understand it, they all checked in sometime on 30th July after having had symptoms for some hours (maybe they checked in after daylight on 30th, maybe some checked in in the pre-dawn hours - I don't think that's been clarified). If diarrhea was one of those symptoms, I'm now wondering how their stomach contents could be confirmed if perhaps the mushrooms themselves had already been digested or even vomited up at home first. I know at autopsies stomach contents can be ascertained, but by the time the three deceased were autopsied the stomach contents from their July 29th meal would be long gone I'm guessing. Moo

But, and apologies if I'm misunderstanding, I think you're saying that samples of their faeces if taken by the hospital would reveal the stomach contents or otherwise demonstrate the type of mushrooms consumed? I'm not at all knowledgable about that as a procedure, but makes sense and seems logical if the tests can identify some specific particle or whatnot that can be traced back to mushroom type. Also vomit might be analysed for food consumed in last 24 hours or something? Wonder how long mushrooms take to digest? I've probably missed posts about that here - will google it. Moo

ETA: re-reading your post I'm also seeing that you mention that examination of digestive tracts at autopsy could reveal which mushrooms were consumed.

Guessing also, I agree autopsy would be too late. Yes, I think if caught early enough, vomit etc could be tested for mushroom DNA, pointing to mushroom type.

 

[Bats]

Regarding the cuts on EPs fingers...another example of horrible journalism. JMO.

 

[Ellery84]

Thanks @Ellery84

At the time I thought it looked like bandaids.

I would have thought more of it if anyone had been stabbed.

Yeah there’s definitely some lesions there….

It’s interesting isn’t it.

All imo

 

[Estelle]

Thinking of Occam's razor ... wondering how many people in Australia actually make Beef Wellington? I would expect very few! Why was such an elaborate, complicated dish prepared? Hmmm....

Well, as I said in my earlier post,

!. It may not be very obvious IMO that there were mushrooms in the dish as there are many other flavours added depending on the recipe chosen and the amount of mushrooms used. Nobody could say that they don't like mushrooms - at least before they ate it - if they did detect mushrooms later.

2. Beef Wellington became famous in the 60s and 70s in Australia. It was in the Women's Weekly Cookbook in the 70s. Therefore, it is unlikely that any of the guests would know that mushrooms were in the dish if they hadn't eaten it before.

3. If EP made individual Beef Wellingtons, she could put the poisonous ones in four of the parcels and leave it out of hers and her children's.

4. Beef Wellington is an impressive dish - especially if you have not eaten it before. So guests would be impressed with the amount of trouble EP would have gone to to make it.

ALL IMO

 

[Bats]

Yeah there’s definitely some lesions there….

It’s interesting isn’t it.

All imo

I'm curious... how is this information to be used with EP potentially poisoning people? Maybe I've missed some details...

 

[Estelle]

Individual packets or envelopes of Beef Wellington would be atypical, esp for a guest list of 4, plus the host and 2 children. That is 7 servings + leftovers.

What you do is buy a whole fillet of beef and then cut it up into how many pieces you want.

How many does a whole fillet of beef feed?

A whole fillet of beef will weigh around 1.80-2.00kg and can serve 8+ people. Fillet Steak is classed as the best, it is not only the most expensive steak on offer, but it is also the most expensive cut on the animal. Its the most tender but possibly not full of flavour.

 

[Bats]

Thinking of Occam's razor ... wondering how many people in Australia actually make Beef Wellington? I would expect very few! Why was such an elaborate, complicated dish prepared? Hmmm....

Replying to my own post...
Illustrating how many 'benefits of the doubt' need to be given....

1. People would normally be helpful if their 'loved ones' died, possibly because of their cooking

2. Poisoning from commercially bought mushrooms is extremely rare

3. The extreme symptoms has only occurred to the guests

4. Person of interest has lied

I would normally allow 2 logical 'benefits of the doubt'...for a story to be truthful...max. I've listed 4 here and there are more that i haven't mentioned.

Its up to the LEs investigation to run its course
All my opinion

 

[Melt71]

Thinking of Occam's razor ... wondering how many people in Australia actually make Beef Wellington? I would expect very few! Why was such an elaborate, complicated dish prepared? Hmmm....

I would suggest there is an age range of people (mine!) in country towns like Leongatha (where I have family), who cook quite traditional European fare. In Australia it is currently winter and Leongatha is cold and rainy and miserable. Leongatha is an area where dairy and beef are raised, so beef is widely consumed and a Beef Wellington would be the perfect dish. And as @Estelle pointed out above, the Women's Weekly had a lot to answer for with their 70's dinner party madness.. take a look at Twitter's '70s Dinner Party' for great examples!

 

[Baby baby Jane]

It does seem highly convoluted and improbable (Imo) but I like your post nonetheless! One question that arose for me when reading - I always figured the hospital would be able to confirm scientifically (not just from the victims' statements) what they actually ate in, say, the hours before their hospital admissions. But have just realised haven't really thought through how that might occur.

As I understand it, they all checked in sometime on 30th July after having had symptoms for some hours (maybe they checked in after daylight on 30th, maybe some checked in in the pre-dawn hours - I don't think that's been clarified). If diarrhea was one of those symptoms, I'm now wondering how their stomach contents could be confirmed if perhaps the mushrooms themselves had already been digested or even vomited up at home first. I know at autopsies stomach contents can be ascertained, but by the time the three deceased were autopsied the stomach contents from their July 29th meal would be long gone I'm guessing. Moo

But, and apologies if I'm misunderstanding, I think you're saying that samples of their faeces if taken by the hospital would reveal the stomach contents or otherwise demonstrate the type of mushrooms consumed? I'm not at all knowledgable about that as a procedure, but makes sense and seems logical if the tests can identify some specific particle or whatnot that can be traced back to mushroom type. Also vomit might be analysed for food consumed in last 24 hours or something? Wonder how long mushrooms take to digest? I've probably missed posts about that here - will google it. Moo

ETA: re-reading your post I'm also seeing that you mention that examination of digestive tracts at autopsy could reveal which mushrooms were consumed.

I think the key difference in autopsy is death causes digestion to stop and the contents stay where they were at death. Then then sometimes the can identify stomach, intestines content. If there is an alive, and very sick patient, who ate approx 12-24 hours prior to hospital, and has had diarrhea the contents may have already been vomited or pooped out. And digestive system will still be pushing stuff along. Hospital staff may, or may not have taken stool sample (if there was any remaining) looking for pathogen but focus may have been on keeping patient alive and not research of source of illness. Hopefully tissue or blood taken might yield something.
But expecting very full and proper testing before LE takes any formal steps.

 

[Ellery84]

I'm curious... how is this information to be used with EP potentially poisoning people? Maybe I've missed some details...

Well now I’m not sure.

Maybe she has forager fingers? Maybe she cut her hand or grazed it when she went to the tip?

Or maybe it’s like @KooshBall said and Erin is displaying what’s commonly called Russell’s Sign, which is linked to Bulimia and the related mechanisms of vomiting and the way that impacts the person’s fingers.

IMO

 

[nhmemorymaker]

The Herald Sun says otherwise .... (quoted in this article)


GIPPSLAND mushroom grower, Josef Sestokas of Flooding Creek Fungi at Sale, is concerned the alleged mushroom poisoning incident at Leongatha, which left three people dead and another fighting for his life, may have already had a negative impact on the $460 million-a-year Australian mushroom industry.

However, an article in the Herald-Sun this week suggests there’s been a “surprising” uplift in sales of mushrooms at supermarket checkouts as people are reminded of the “natural superfood” qualities of mushrooms.

‘Absolutely’ nothing wrong with our mushrooms, they say - South Gippsland Sentinel Times

GIPPSLAND mushroom grower, Josef Sestokas of Flooding Creek Fungi at Sale, is concerned the alleged mushroom poisoning incident at Leongatha, which left three people dead and another fighting for his life, may have already had a negative impact on...

www.sgst.com.au

Speaking for my family, we regularly eat mushrooms. My family loves them. Always store-bought and grown under strictly regulated conditions. I have not changed my mushroom-buying habits.

In Summer, I live in a very rich agriculture and farming area, with Farmers Markets in every town any day of the week. There are many mushroom growers around. Even though I DO think about our case here, I am finding myself buying more and more of the different types of mushrooms available! I think this feeling I have is what the above article is hinting at!! Ha!

 

[JBowie]

RBBM" I think they're analysing two diffrent cases in the episode so he's referring to the second case (from the US) which takes up most of the the video. Analysis of EP only takes place in the last quarter (approx) of the video. Moo

Yes, as per the video title, they are analyzing two cases and I refer only to the EP case (hence my showing the starting point at 57:32)

 

[sapphire blue]

As I understand it, in Victoria there are active and extensive public education campaigns about this particular toxic mushroom. That makes it VERY unlikely this mistake could be made IMO. Folks would be taking the course many posters here say they would take: because of the risk of getting confused and making a fatal mistake, they wouldn't forage mushrooms. Given the warnings, it would take a lot to convince most people that foraged mushrooms were safe: too easy to make a mistake.

So, IMO, in that context, serving toxic mushrooms at a fancy luncheon is a very unlikely error.

I live in Victoria and have never in 50+ years heard of any public education campaigns about this particular toxic mushroom, in fact I’ve never heard of any public campaigns about any mushrooms.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I don't live in Victoria, I live in New South Wales and I do remember regular campaigns warning against death cap mushrooms.

The campaigns take the form of newspaper articles. Which can be random as to who reads them.

It's not a compulsory mushroom identification class that everyone in Australia attends

So I don't agree that no one in Australia could ever make a mistake in identifying mushrooms.

People have mistaken them before, more than once.

 

[Bats]

Well now I’m not sure.

Maybe she has forager fingers? Maybe she cut her hand or grazed it when she went to the tip?

Or maybe it’s like @KooshBall said and Erin is displaying what’s commonly called Russell’s Sign, which is linked to Bulimia and the related mechanisms of vomiting and the way that impacts the person’s fingers.

IMO

Ok thanks @Ellery84 .. fair play.

I think I'm guilty of jumping to conclusions as have lots of people in this forum.

Still we don't even know if it was EPs meal that has poisoned 4 people, killing 3.

 

[RickshawFan]

Thanks @Ellery84

At the time I thought it looked like bandaids.

I would have thought more of it if anyone had been stabbed.

Occam’s Razor did it.

 

[ch_13]

Credit/ The Daily Mail. Author: Candace Sutton

“A strange detail on mushroom chef Erin Patterson's hands that no-one spotted before now shows two injuries to the middle finger of her right hand.”


“Two healing cuts are visible on the 48-year-old's hand in separate filmed interviews in the driveway of her home on Monday, August 7, nine days after she hosted the fatal beef Wellington lunch inside the house at Leongatha, in Victoria's South Gippsland.”


Eerie detail in photo of mushroom cook that no one noticed until now

This is typical Daily Mail. Their analytics tell them that people are clicking on Erin Patterson articles, so they'll produce a new one every day as long as there's interest, whether or not there is any new news to report.

Today it's some meaningless cuts on Erin's hand. The other day it was a quote in a photography forum that Simon made five years ago. Or they'll get some fake 'expert' to weigh in even though they they are completely uninvolved in the case. The titles will have loaded words like 'eerie' or 'weird' and will be written to mislead and grab attention.

IMO, it's all just classic clickbait and best ignored.

 

[JBowie]

Guessing also, I agree autopsy would be too late. Yes, I think if caught early enough, vomit etc could be tested for mushroom DNA, pointing to mushroom type.

IMO, autopsies would likely find evidence of damage to kidneys and liver -- and maybe other organs -- which is consistent with death cap toxin poisoning. I imagine there would be volumes of reference data on that available to the pathologists.