Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #3

[Salah11]

When you have guests? When the host prepared a special meal, one that makes for a special presentation? They plate it up and put the plates somewhere so the presumably seated guests have to get up and select a plate?

I agree with you it’s a Showpiece dish one of the most complicated to make well so she wouldn’t have just cut it up into slices and said …


“Take your pick” it’s not that type of Dish imo

 

[kittythehare]

(Just for further information)
With regard to a lack of confidence, in 2018 Simon apparently posted on FB that EP does not like to have her photo taken.

Before she opened the door to The Australian reporter (John Ferguson) last week, she asked if he had a camera. He did not have a camera, so EP opened the door.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/leongatha-mushroom-poisoning-hope-among-the-deaths-for-ian-wilkinson/news-story/792bf97a4fc6beb680b56bb2b0007939?amp&nk=88a57d61746c6b50dcd5f2a92dc399e9-1693085439

The article also says that Simon is an avid traveller and adventure photographer, as well as a civil engineer, and that he knows best how acrimonious the dynamic of the family has become - that it has split friends of his and EP's.

Is that since the final separation or the deaths? article paywalled.. Thanks Aussie.

 

[kittythehare]

(snipped & BBM)
I think she may have overstated the extent of her care. He stayed with his parents and she dropped in and ran a few errands for him and this and that--maybe? And then he accused her of using his illness to get closer to him, and she angrily responded that she wouldn't have him back in a million years. And then they all calmed down and returned to their peaceful separation. And then--I don't know. Were they really thinking of undivorcing?

Not seeing an undivorce vibe here at all despite all the rumours.

 

[SouthAussie]

Is that since the final separation or the deaths? article paywalled.. Thanks Aussie.

The article says that Simon knows how acrimonious the family dynamic had become ... presumably prior to the deaths, but it is not clear.

 

[Charlot123]

The remaining toxic beef Wellington, the poisoned one, went into the toilet. The clean one was leftovers.

Where does water from the toilet go?

 

[Charlot123]

My guess he was not in a teasing mood.

I doubt he was in a teasing mood. I would like to know who started the conversation about dehydrator, Erin or one of the kids?

 

[JLZ]

She clearly had a fear of losing her children.
Their separation, was formalised in January '21.
Following years of separation.
He got sick in '22, they were living apart unless imaginary friends start saying she poisoned him.
She nursed him, reluctantly, she says following his sickness.
I presume she nursed him in her own home.
that was last year.
she says she declined to reconcile with him at that time and I see no reason to disbelieve her on that.

i don't get the impression that her social life is 'lit' exactly.

I think her life probably revolves around her children and not much else.

I don't see her as a confident woman and i have no idea what she has lived through.
i can think of many that could produce a state of fear in any woman under the sun, depending upon the methodologies used to apply the 'pressure'.

Just speculating.

I don't accept that it's clear that she has a fear of losing her children, or that she has any reason (other than possibly being a murderer) to fear that she might lose them. I think she's quite clever at implying that she's the victim in a range of situations.

 

[kittythehare]

The article says that Simon knows how acrimonious the family dynamic had become ... presumably prior to the deaths.

I wonder what that was about?
separated years.
Final separation Jan 21.
This is 2023..
I assume final separation would have included agreements for division of property etc?
Altho' someone posted both were listed as owners of house S currently occupies.
Might have been @citizen_sleuth ?
Is that a cause of acrimony?
why now?
Why not back when the finally separated?

 

[kittythehare]

I don't accept that it's clear that she has a fear of losing her children, or that she has any reason (other than possibly being a murderer) to fear that she might lose them. I think she's quite clever at implying that she's the victim in a range of situations.

But there is nothing clever about conducting a mass murder in that fashion.
I see possibly a good business head or good advisors due to her amassing a lucrative property folio.
The whole thing is utterly pointless.

If her first thought after his possibly snarky remark was that she could now be considered an unfit mother led to the action of dumping the dehydrator, it seems clear, assuming she is telling the truth.

We can only speculate as to possibilities based on paltry info that is available and that is what I am doing.

 

[ch_13]

Yes, every time. We all stand in a semi circle and pray first and then my mother dishes out the plates and we all go sit down at the fancy table.

Except Erin didn't dish out the plates. In her statement she said that everyone chose their own plate and she took the last one.

It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

 

[Mirabel091]

There are also ways to make one plate look less appealing, so everyone else in theory has first pick, but can still be influenced by the host. MOO.

 

[JLZ]

Except Erin didn't dish out the plates. In her statement she said that everyone chose their own plate and she took the last one.

It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

I think she thinks it's a brilliant defence, and she couldn't resist bringing it forward almost immediately. I agree with the others who say that after the guests chose their own plate, she switched the last poisoned meal for a 'clean' one.

 

[JLZ]

If her first thought after his possibly snarky remark was that she could now be considered an unfit mother led to the action of dumping the dehydrator, it seems clear, assuming she is telling the truth.

She said she was afraid of losing the children, so assuming she's telling the truth, she was afraid of losing the children. I don't assume it.

I think she was under pressure when she came up with that explanation. It doesn't really make sense. It suggests to me an entrenched habit of DARVO-ing.

 

[kittythehare]

She said she was afraid of losing the children, so assuming she's telling the truth, she was afraid of losing the children. I don't assume it.

Fair enough.

 

[MoominMama222]

Except Erin didn't dish out the plates. In her statement she said that everyone chose their own plate and she took the last one.

It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

I'm not sure what you mean. Who dished them out then? I guess you mean she didn't take an empty plate from a person and then hand them back food? instead she served onto plates the way a chef does in a kitchen of a restaurant and the people chose their plates like servers would, except they were serving themselves. That in itself does not strike me as odd. Of course it is odd she didn't get ill like the others, except she did? I guess? just not as bad? and the kids not getting sick is odd, except I would scrape the mushrooms off for my kids too. But death cap I would think would be far too toxic for that to matter? I would think even scraping them off, the kids would still get sick. Unless there was a version she served without mushrooms? Maybe there was another toxic mushroom that would require someone to chew and ingest? There is one survivor--how unusual is that for death cap? Could it be some other toxin that caused the deaths, one illness not as severe (Erin) and one survivor?

 

[MoominMama222]

It certainly may be that she deliberately poisoned them. I just feel uncomfortable that she is a bit weird or odd, not named a suspect, and there are all these tabloids declaring her guilty and then every single thing she does is evidence that she is guilty, even if they are things people do--like have people pick up pre-served plates of food or send your kids to the movies while the adults talk. And the drawings on the wall--wasn't the wall going to be painted? I could see kids doing that and especially if it was during covid, drawing funny (to them) sketches about death and RIP as a way of coping with fears. My kids used to draw those smiley faces with x's for eyes and making morbid jokes when they were quite young! A lot of intelligent kids might have a darker sense of humor as a way to deal with things they may understand are going on in the world but aren't emotionally mature enough to process. IMO MOO

 

[JLZ]

I wonder if there hadn't been mushrooms in the meal would death caps still be the presumed cause of death, based on the symptoms and whatever analysis they have so far.

 

[kittythehare]

Trying to figure out what's taking so long.

This is a very good paper

Mushroom Poisoning - PMC

Poisonous mushrooms are eaten by mushroom hunters out of ignorance, after misidentification as edible mushrooms, or as a psychoactive drug. Mushroom poisoning commonly leads to consultation with a poison information center and to hospitalization. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

See Table 3B

Mushroom Poisoning

Poisonous mushrooms are eaten by mushroom hunters out of ignorance, after misidentification as edible mushrooms, or as a psychoactive drug. Mushroom poisoning commonly leads to consultation with a poison information center and to hospitalization.This ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Mushroom poisoning syndromes with long latency (6 to 24 h)

Syndrome; latency	Mechanism of action	Symptoms	Treatment, antidote	Toxins, tests
Amatoxin / phalloides poisoning 6–12 h (max. 24 h)	Inhibition of RNA polymerase II inhibits the transcription of DNA to mRNA, thus blocking the biosynthesis of many proteins (enzymes, structural proteins, peptide hormones, membrane receptors).	Vomiting, profuse diarrhea, hypotension, acute renal and liver failure, coagulopathy, encephalopathy	Activated charcoal may be given (19), aggressive fluid and electrolyte resuscitation, coagulation factors; other options include hemodialysis/albumin dialysis, with liver transplantation as a last resort. Silibinin is the antidote of first choice; it may be given in combination with N-acetylcysteine (NAC).NAC may be given alone if silibinin is not available	Amatoxins are a group of 10 heat-stable bicyclic oligopeptides. The main active substances, α-amanitin and β-amanitin, are resistant to gastrointestinal peptidases. Immunoassay (ELISA) and chromatographic techniques to demonstrate α-amanitin in urine are available at several laboratories.*1 Note the window of opportunity: from 6 to a maximum of 36 hours after the mushrooms were ingested) (27– 29)
Gyromitrin poisoning 6–12 h	Gyromitrin is broken down to monomethylhydrazine (MMH) by a long period of drying, cooking, or by gastric juices. MMH inhibits pyridoxal phosphokinase and leads to reduced production of pyridoxal 5-phosphate (vitamin B6), with neurotoxic effect (vitamin B6 is a key cofactor in the synthesis of GABA). MMH after massive ingestion of gyromitra mushrooms leads to oxidative stress and thus to methemoglobinemia.	If MMH builds up rapidly, the damage caused is mainly to the liver; if it builds up slowly, CNS symptoms are seen (acetylator type) (e12); nausea, vomiting, impaired consciousness, CNS excitation, cerebral seizures, liver and kidney damage (e14); methemoglobinemia may occur	Activated charcoal may be given (19) Intravenous pyridoxine, or alternatively, e.g., levetiracetam	Gyromitrin, which is metabolized to MMH (e13). MMH is volatile, heat-sensitive, and water-soluble, and these mushrooms were therefore long regarded as edible so long as they were well cooked (in fact, multiple cases are known of severe or even fatal poisoning even when the mushrooms were correctly prepared!) (e12). No serum or urine tests are available
Orellanine poisoning 36 h – 17 days	Orellanine, or its metabolite, causes oxidative stress leading to formation of superoxide ions and thus to inhibition of alkaline phosphatase and DNA and RNA polymerases, which in turn results in inhibition of protein biosynthesis in renal tissue (e15– e18)	Thirst, flank pain, weakness, oliguria or even acute renal failure, tubulointerstitial nephritis; there may be irreversible terminal renal failure requiring dialysis	Symptomatic treatment, treatment of renal failure, hemodialysis if indicated*2, steroids	Orellanine No published serum or urine tests; only testing of renal tissue is available (e19– e21)

 

[kittythehare]

I wonder if there hadn't been mushrooms in the meal would death caps still be the presumed cause of death, based on the symptoms and whatever analysis they have so far.

not sure.

 

[JLZ]

Do you think it’s a possibility that Simon was teasing her when he said is that what you used to poison them?

We don’t know what tone of voice he used but thinking of the timeline, would that fit in with before DC mushrooms were suspected?

Knowing she was a keen forager he might have assumed she’s used foraged mushrooms and accidentally used the wrong ones or teased her about her ability to pick safe ones.

Am I grasping here or is this reasonable?

It might depend when he said it. If it was before he realized it was anything more than gastro? Then he could have been joking.

If it was after his parents died he might have said it in the bitter paranoia of early grief (drawing on my own experience). But that doesn't fit with investigators finding the dehydrator on Friday 4th August. At least, it does, if Erin is lying about him saying it before she dumped it.

Just personally, I can't imagine him saying the thing at all after he knew their lives were threatened but before they died.