Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #6 *Arrest*

[al66pine]

An Accused, Being Held. No "Outside Income?"

I don’t know if one would be able to rent a property out whilst incarcerated, even on remand, as surely, the premise is that whilst in prison the person is not generating regular income on the “outside”?
Correct me if I am wrong, I don’t know enough about the regulations around this...

snipped for focus @Ellery84 From OP:
"...premise is that whilst in prison the person is not generating regular income on the “outside”?

^^^ New to me ^^^ but not claiming to know much of anything re VIC laws or OZ laws.

Looking forward to responses that can enlighten us on this.

 

[Ellery84]

An Accused, Being Held. No "Outside Income?"

snipped for focus @Ellery84 From OP:
"...premise is that whilst in prison the person is not generating regular income on the “outside”?

^^^ New to me ^^^ but not claiming to know much of anything re VIC laws or OZ laws.

Looking forward to responses that can enlighten us on this.

Thank you @al66pine for snipping

 

[DFWNF]

Do you really think that in the perilous environment of September 11 all the air traffic controllers abandoned their jobs to watch tv, leaving just a single person to watch all the planes? That sounds pretty implausible to me. In any case, according the Herald Sun article Erin was still in training during September 11. So she wouldn't have been the one responsible for directing plane traffic.

Additionally, it should be noted that with the time difference, the WTC collapse would have happened in the middle of the night, Australian time. Since they were still in training, the group wouldn't have been working overnight. I think the incident with Erin segregating herself would have actually happened the following day, September 12. By which time the events had pretty much all unfolded and it was mostly talking heads on tv.

What I suspect is that the instructors were needed to help deal with the aftermath, so the trainees may have been at loose ends for a day or two. While the others hung out together and watched the news, Erin chose to stay in a different room from them and not engage. (I don't really blame her for that. Lots of people needed space and time to process the events on their own terms.)

I don't know how much Australia ATCs and others were tasked with on Sept 11, but I do know that other parts of the world stepped up and must have been swamped and overwhelmed and scared and did their best to help, notably Newfoundland and Labrador and the wonderful loving and caring folks there.

 

[Kemug]

And I should think that other countries were on full alert, in case something similar happened there, as part of a larger plan or as a copycat event. No slacking off for the ATCs!

 

[Charlot123]

Like most people, I remember exactly where I was on 9/11 and the thing is that as the situation unfolded all of us around the world were in shock and disbelief. People frantically called us to the nearest TV as the event happened and we stood and watched feeling completely mind blown. Obviously not every single person had the same response as me and people I know but I can't imagine someone refusing to come and see what's going on in the unfolding news live, especially if they work in ATC. If this story is true (may not be) then certainly EP is a very special type of person IMO.

When it happened, I was in Boston (both WTC planes flew out of Logan Airport, so it was very close to us). I drove to work, and we all got together to discuss what to do...and of course there was nothing we could do. But I remember that most of us were crying. So I can imagine that maybe Erin wanted to cry, too, but not in front of other people? Anyhow, I wouldn't hold this behavior against her, it was a very scary day, and there is no "right or wrong" behavior. (Although: it shows her inability to pull herself together during a catastrophic event by being "the helper", but this is an inborn trait.)

 

[LordMo]

also, 22 years ago is a long time to try and remember a minor event from a day as chaotic and exhausting as that, and is definitely going to fall into the trap of memory being extremely fallible. If the person recounting this anecdote had made up their mind already one way or the other about the innocence of the accused, that would alter how they chose to remember/relay the events of that day.

 

[LinasK]

I don’t know if one would be able to rent a property out whilst incarcerated, even on remand, as surely, the premise is that whilst in prison the person is not generating regular income on the “outside”?

Correct me if I am wrong, I don’t know enough about the regulations around this.

Imo

Also, NZ Herald have picked up on the cold robot yarn and have reproduced some of the content:

Texts reveal accused killer mushroom chef's 'horrible' upbringing, new details of past

Fresh details emerge of Erin Patterson's childhood.

www.nzherald.co.nz

IMO

In the US you can. My cousin's murderer sold his house while awaiting trial in jail to pay for his legal expenses. The money is gone now, and he's since fired that lawyer.

 

[Ellery84]

also, 22 years ago is a long time to try and remember a minor event from a day as chaotic and exhausting as that, and is definitely going to fall into the trap of memory being extremely fallible. If the person recounting this anecdote had made up their mind already one way or the other about the innocence of the accused, that would alter how they chose to remember/relay the events of that day.

That’s what I’m thinking, too.

Obviously, it goes to character, the character of Erin Patterson, but if that person who gave that statement about where Erin was on 9/11 was cross examined in court, for example, I wonder what they would have to say then.

It’s such a long time ago.

It’s easy to sling mud at someone who is in jail and unable to be contacted for comment, or to defend herself. Jmo

I also wonder how thoroughly the journalist that wrote that piece investigated the claim about where Erin was on 9/11 and what she was doing at work that day?

IMO

 

[TootsieFootsie]

If you own property or have assets, you don't lose them if you go to prison.
That would be theft.

And I imagine you are still able to manage things like arranging to have your bills paid, and rent collected while you are in prison. If there is no family member or friend who could do it.

Not sure whether it has to be a lawyer that does things like that or if you could or obtain a real estate agent to take care of things.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

If you own property or have assets, you don't lose them if you go to prison.
That would be theft.

And I imagine you are still able to manage things like arranging to have your bills paid, and rent collected while you are in prison. If there is no family member or friend who could do it.

Not sure whether it has to be a lawyer that does things like that or if you could or obtain a real estate agent to take care of things.

Agreed. I've never heard that an incarcerated person can't earn (passive) income while in prison. Even active income, I suppose, if they are able to do whatever work is necessary in their cell.

The only restriction I'm aware of is that a convicted person (felon only? or any crime? not sure) may not make money *from their crime*. So if they write a book about their crime, for example, the money can't go to them.

MOO

 

[jjleroche]

Thank you @al66pine for snipping

snipped for focus @Ellery84 From OP:
"...premise is that whilst in prison the person is not generating regular income on the “outside”?

^^^ New to me ^^^ but not claiming to know much of anything re VIC laws or OZ laws.

Looking forward to responses that can enlighten us on this.
[/QUOTE]
uilty

An Accused, Being Held. No "Outside Income?"

snipped for focus @Ellery84 From OP:
"...premise is that whilst in prison the person is not generating regular income on the “outside”?

^^^ New to me ^^^ but not claiming to know much of anything re VIC laws or OZ laws.

Looking forward to responses that can enlighten us on this.

IANAL but I don't see why EP could not continue to receive income from any legal sources. As per link below, remandees are unsentenced and are innocent until proven guilty. IMO there would be all sorts of issues if someone who has not been found guilty to date were prevented from receiving income.

It would be highly discriminatory, and making a presumption of guilt without the usual mechanisms having taken place. Any remandee has a right to the presumption of innocence until such time as they are found guilty by a court of law. IMO

Remand | Corrections Victoria

Alleged offenders on remand are held in custody before and during their trial (on criminal charges) by order of a court.

www.corrections.vic.gov.au

 

[DFWNF]

Agreed. I've never heard that an incarcerated person can't earn (passive) income while in prison. Even active income, I suppose, if they are able to do whatever work is necessary in their cell.

The only restriction I'm aware of is that a convicted person (felon only? or any crime? not sure) may not make money *from their crime*. So if they write a book about their crime, for example, the money can't go to them.

MOO

Very good point regarding laws forbidding proceedings from crime. Thank God.

 

[Ellery84]

If you own property or have assets, you don't lose them if you go to prison.
That would be theft.

And I imagine you are still able to manage things like arranging to have your bills paid, and rent collected while you are in prison. If there is no family member or friend who could do it.

Not sure whether it has to be a lawyer that does things like that or if you could or obtain a real estate agent to take care of things.

snipped for focus @Ellery84 From OP:
"...premise is that whilst in prison the person is not generating regular income on the “outside”?

^^^ New to me ^^^ but not claiming to know much of anything re VIC laws or OZ laws.

Looking forward to responses that can enlighten us on this.

uilty
IANAL but I don't see why EP could not continue to receive income from any legal sources. As per link below, remandees are unsentenced and are innocent until proven guilty. IMO there would be all sorts of issues if someone who has not been found guilty to date were prevented from receiving income.

It would be highly discriminatory, and making a presumption of guilt without the usual mechanisms having taken place. Any remandee has a right to the presumption of innocence until such time as they are found guilty by a court of law. IMO

Remand | Corrections Victoria

Alleged offenders on remand are held in custody before and during their trial (on criminal charges) by order of a court.

www.corrections.vic.gov.au

[/QUOTE]

Hi there @jjleroche

Thank you. Yes, I am very much aware that Ms. Patterson is right now under the presumption of innocence.

And she may very well be innocent of each and all charges.

But the link provided by you doesn’t say that she is or isn’t allowed to earn a passive income via a rental property whilst incarcerated on remand.

Remand | Corrections Victoria

Alleged offenders on remand are held in custody before and during their trial (on criminal charges) by order of a court.

www.corrections.vic.gov.au

IMO

 

[jjleroche]

uilty
IANAL but I don't see why EP could not continue to receive income from any legal sources. As per link below, remandees are unsentenced and are innocent until proven guilty. IMO there would be all sorts of issues if someone who has not been found guilty to date were prevented from receiving income.

It would be highly discriminatory, and making a presumption of guilt without the usual mechanisms having taken place. Any remandee has a right to the presumption of innocence until such time as they are found guilty by a court of law. IMO

Remand | Corrections Victoria

Alleged offenders on remand are held in custody before and during their trial (on criminal charges) by order of a court.

www.corrections.vic.gov.au

Hi there @jjleroche

Thank you. Yes, I am very much aware that Ms. Patterson is right now under the presumption of innocence.

And she may very well be innocent of each and all charges.

But the link provided by you doesn’t say that she is or isn’t allowed to earn a passive income via a rental property whilst incarcerated on remand.

Remand | Corrections Victoria

Alleged offenders on remand are held in custody before and during their trial (on criminal charges) by order of a court.

www.corrections.vic.gov.au

IMO
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your message Ellery84. No, the information which I highlighted doesn't specifically state whether or not a remandee is, or is not permitted to earn a passive income via a rental property whilst incarcerated. (I did look for something specific, unsuccessfully so far. If I find anything, I'll post it. )
I formed the opinion, as per my post, based on the presumption of innocence. In effect, as far as I am aware, (caveat - I am not a lawyer) it would therefore follow (IMO) that there is no legislation to support the premise that a remandee cannot derive such income as they have not been convicted of any offence. MOO

 

[Ellery84]

“I formed the opinion, as per my post, based on the presumption of innocence. In effect, as far as I am aware, (caveat - I am not a lawyer) it would therefore follow (IMO) that there is no legislation to support the premise that a remandee cannot derive such income as they have not been convicted of any offence. MOO
[/QUOTE]”

BBM
With respect, I think you’re wrong, and I’m going to ask a lawyer and get back to you.

@jjleroche

 

[Charlot123]

That’s what I’m thinking, too.

Obviously, it goes to character, the character of Erin Patterson, but if that person who gave that statement about where Erin was on 9/11 was cross examined in court, for example, I wonder what they would have to say then.

It’s such a long time ago.

It’s easy to sling mud at someone who is in jail and unable to be contacted for comment, or to defend herself. Jmo

I also wonder how thoroughly the journalist that wrote that piece investigated the claim about where Erin was on 9/11 and what she was doing at work that day?

IMO

In general, the response to the event so shocking for the world can not be used to prove guilt or innocence pertaining the current accusation. How one responds to US being under attack bears no predictive value on whether anyone can poison their relatives 23 years later in Australia. They have enough information related to her behavior and attitude to the husband and relatives and don't need to pull out WTC.

 

[SouthAussie]

Thanks for your message Ellery84. No, the information which I highlighted doesn't specifically state whether or not a remandee is, or is not permitted to earn a passive income via a rental property whilst incarcerated. (I did look for something specific, unsuccessfully so far. If I find anything, I'll post it. )
I formed the opinion, as per my post, based on the presumption of innocence. In effect, as far as I am aware, (caveat - I am not a lawyer) it would therefore follow (IMO) that there is no legislation to support the premise that a remandee cannot derive such income as they have not been convicted of any offence. MOO

I don't know if the presumption of innocence even comes into it.
There is a link here that gives people pointers on what to do about their debts if they are going to prison.
And it says that prisons have a visiting financial advisor to help them - if they haven't formed a financial management plan before they are incarcerated.
One would think their assets/passive income can be used to take care of their debts while incarcerated.

National Debt Helpline - Prisons

This link describes what a person can keep at the prison (either in their cell or in the prison safe).
Corrections, Prisons & Parole - Property and clothing

This link describes how their 'prison money' is controlled. They can receive up to $150 per month into their prison account. And they can receive an additional $70 per month into their prison phone account.
Corrections, Prisons & Parole - Money

imo

 

[Baby baby Jane]

House sale likely to be paying her legal fees and, she may have money troubles despite owning properties. Sensible to sell-up and pay for defense which may include having expensive independent research and analysis of evidence. Maybe also doing financial planning for her kids’ futures.

 

[LordCyrus]

they can receive an additional $70 per month into their prison phone account

$70 per month for a phone account is generous. Is internet access on a smart phone permitted?

 

[MsMarple]

Some confusing news. Unfortunately the article is paywalled so only the first sentence is available.

Apparently EP has been reading the Bible and even reciting verses out loud as she sits in jail. I thought she was an atheist?

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/erin-patterson-believed-to-be-reading-and-reciting-bible-verses-in-prison/news-story/a348ba9904ba0b252054fe27a57e0e4d