Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #6 *Arrest*

[TootsieFootsie]

There's been no trial yet as far as I know.
So she has yet to be found guilty in a court of law.

 

[investikater]

The jurisdiction where she had her recent mention would not have been able to grant bail, and she (her legal team) did not apply at that time.

If she wanted to apply for bail, that would need to be done through the Supreme Court.

So: Maybe she’s not applied to the Supreme Court for bail?

IMO
INAL

Why though? She's in Leongatha Victoria not Canberra ACT?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/mushroom-accuseds-alleged-knowledge-key-kc/news-story/67febd1218ca2015976199ef94194694?amp

Behind a paywall, I think. Posting it here for those who subscribe.

 

[ch_13]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/mushroom-accuseds-alleged-knowledge-key-kc/news-story/67febd1218ca2015976199ef94194694?amp

Behind a paywall, I think. Posting it here for those who subscribe.

I don't have access to the article but from the synopsis it seems that to be found guilty of murder, the prosecution has to show that Erin had specific knowledge of the mushroom's adverse effects.

It was claimed in one of the Daily Mail's stories that Erin was an expert forager:
A friend of the Patterson family said Erin was 'very good at foraging' and identifying different mushroom varieties.
'The Patterson family (including Erin and Simon) would pick mushrooms each year when they were in season,' the friend said.

Of course there have been quite a few 'friends' popping up saying various things about Erin, so take it with a grain of salt. But in any case, it seems that Simon should be able to testify to his ex-wife's previous experiences with wild fungi.

 

[Ellery84]

EP Being Held at Dame Phyllis Frost Centre?
Thx for posting this. @SouthAussie
Implementing OPCAT in Victoria: report and inspection of the Dame Phyllis Frost Centre

And TYVM @JBowie for this link.

Contact or visit a prison | Corrections Victoria

Find a prison or contact someone who's in prison.

www.corrections.vic.gov.au

Could be faulty memory or from quickly skimming news on my part (or both, ) , but I did not realize she is in a facility holding (mainly?) persons already convicted.

Yes, that’s correct.

So it does make me wonder how many privileges she may or may not have in that facility.

IMO

I imagined she was in a police gaol (seems term was still in use at time of 2017 OPCAT publication page 7. Excuse me if no longer correct in VIC.)

As correctional facilities go, opening in 1996, DPFC is rather newish.

Further reading on DPFC.

Dame Phyllis Frost Centre | Corrections Victoria

Information specific to Dame Phyllis Frost Centre (Women only)

www.corrections.vic.gov.au

Dame Phyllis Frost Centre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DeDee]

I think that EP may never have been an atheist. The article says that a source stated that, in the Burra Flyer, the church segments were very large. Disproportionate. That you would pay $130 for an ad to be placed in the Flyer, and a church puff piece (as described) would take up a full page or two.

It also says that the bible-reading and sometimes speaking paragraphs out loud in jail happened during the first nights of EP's current stint on remand. It doesn't say that it is ongoing, so it may have been reported by someone who has since been released. Or it has stopped.

Perhaps if Erin attended church alone or with her family members and friends, we'd know about it. Otherwise, something dark happens in her household to produce the images of daggers, tombstones and decapitated heads on an interior wall.

​

<modsnip - not an approved source>

 

[Ellery84]

Why though? She's in Leongatha Victoria not Canberra ACT?

In 2021 there were some reforms made to the law in Victoria.

In Victoria, when people are charged with murder, usually they can only be granted bail by applying to the Supreme Court; neither the police nor bail justices can grant bail. People accused of murder are remanded until the bail application can be heard by a Supreme Court judge.

Link below:

https://www.lawreform.vic.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/bail_law_brochureFINAL.pdf

 

[al66pine]

Ex-Spouses or Estranged Spouses?

I wish we could get a definitive answer on the ex-or-estranged question. Per MSM, neighbors & friends say EP & SP have lived separately for multiple yrs (since 2019 or 2020?).

From one angle, the ex-or-estranged issue may not be relevant to any poss crime.
OTOH, it may shed light on EP's thinking --- IF she did poison them deliberately but I'm not saying she poisoned them.

HYPO re estranged couple living separately & each is contemplating Dis/Marriage. To file or not to file?

Spouse 1 thinks to self, in the foreseeable future the other, i.e., Spouse 2, will receive a substantial amt of $$$ (maybe inheritance from relative; or for selling a piece of r/e; royalties from books s/he wrote; or photos s/he took & has licensed; etc. What-ev source).

Foreseeing ^that^ may instill patience in Spouse 1 to WAIT IT OUT, instead of filing or pressing the other to file, which would set in motion negotiations for a property settlement.

Negotiations & Dis/Mar BEFORE Spouse 2 receives $$$ =
Smaller Pile o' Money to haggle over, regardless of whether it is deemed separate prop or marital prop.

Negotiations & Dis/Mar AFTER Spouse 2 receives $$$ =
Bigger Pile o' Money to haggle over, regardless of whether it is deemed separate prop or marital prop. Maybe Spouse 1 hopes to receive some of the bigger Pile o Money.

As time passes, maybe Spouse 1 gets TIRED of WAITING and decides to accelerate things.

^^^^ A stretch??? Admittedly, but within the realm of possibilities. But it's a hypo) moo imo ^^^^

 

[Ellery84]

Ex-Spouses or Estranged Spouses?

I wish we could get a definitive answer on the ex-or-estranged question. Per MSM, neighbors & friends say EP & SP have lived separately for multiple yrs (since 2019 or 2020?).

From one angle, the ex-or-estranged issue may not be relevant to any poss crime.
OTOH, it may shed light on EP's thinking --- IF she did poison them deliberately but I'm not saying she poisoned them.

HYPO re estranged couple living separately & each is contemplating Dis/Marriage. To file or not to file?

Spouse 1 thinks to self, in the foreseeable future the other, i.e., Spouse 2, will receive a substantial amt of $$$ (maybe inheritance from relative; or for selling a piece of r/e; royalties from books s/he wrote; or photos s/he took & has licensed; etc. What-ev source).

Foreseeing ^that^ may instill patience in Spouse 1 to WAIT IT OUT, instead of filing or pressing the other to file, which would set in motion negotiations for a property settlement.

Negotiations & Dis/Mar BEFORE Spouse 2 receives $$$ =
Smaller Pile o' Money to haggle over, regardless of whether it is deemed separate prop or marital prop.

Negotiations & Dis/Mar AFTER Spouse 2 receives $$$ =
Bigger Pile o' Money to haggle over, regardless of whether it is deemed separate prop or marital prop. Maybe Spouse 1 hopes to receive some of the bigger Pile o Money.

As time passes, maybe Spouse 1 gets TIRED of WAITING and decides to accelerate things.

^^^^ A stretch??? Admittedly, but within the realm of possibilities. But it's a hypo) moo imo ^^^^

It still doesn’t account for why she would have (allegedly) a motive to murder her ex partners family members, as the Crown have suggested.

IMO

(Granted, Ms. Patterson may be completely innocent…)

 

[Ellery84]

I don't have access to the article but from the synopsis it seems that to be found guilty of murder, the prosecution has to show that Erin had specific knowledge of the mushroom's adverse effects.

It was claimed in one of the Daily Mail's stories that Erin was an expert forager:
A friend of the Patterson family said Erin was 'very good at foraging' and identifying different mushroom varieties.
'The Patterson family (including Erin and Simon) would pick mushrooms each year when they were in season,' the friend said.

Of course there have been quite a few 'friends' popping up saying various things about Erin, so take it with a grain of salt. But in any case, it seems that Simon should be able to testify to his ex-wife's previous experiences with wild fungi.

That’s really interesting!!

“to be found guilty of murder, the prosecution has to show that Erin had specific knowledge of the mushroom's adverse effects.”

So, presumably that would be in connection with the alleged beef Wellington lunch incident. Jmo

But what about the previous times that the Crown alleges that Erin attempted to murder her husband (or ex husband) Simon Patterson?

Thinking about those historical charges of attempted murder of Simon Patterson: What was the alleged mechanism of those attempted murders? (And Erin is entitled to the presumption of innocence, as she hasn’t been convicted of any of these charges.)

Has the Crown alleged that Simon was poisoned? Or was he allegedly harmed in another way that would lead them to bring a brief together with charges of attempted murder?

If he was allegedly poisoned, then what does the Crown alledge he was poisoned with? Nightshade? Arsenic? Mushrooms?

So I would suggest that there might be more to it than just establishing the accused’s potential knowledge of the mushroom’s adverse effects.

IMO

I would suggest that, in a general sense, the fact that it is called a Death Cap Mushroom might inform the chef (or in this case an alleged murderer) that it might be deadly and therefore not suitable for consumption.

I like to think about this in simple terms, and bear with me: For example, it might be like me preparing a Death Banana. It’s called a Death Banana. I’m hardly going to chop it up and put it on my cornflakes in the morning. Let alone serve it to anyone else…. I’m going to leave it on it’s tree and never touch it.

So if Ms. Patterson’s hearing goes ahead in May 2024, let’s say the defence in the Erin Patterson case rises in the court and says, “well my client didn’t know that Death Cap Mushrooms were sufficiently poisonous that they would cause death,” the Prosecutor might say “well, they are called Death Cap mushrooms” and that might be a really strong argument as to what might happen if one ingested them. Jmo

For what it’s worth, I think there may be some discussion about “quantity” of mushrooms, if and when the case goes to trial in May.

All imo

IBM
BBM

 

[ch_13]

So if Ms. Patterson’s hearing goes ahead in May 2024, let’s say the defence in the Erin Patterson case rises in the court and says, “well my client didn’t know that Death Cap Mushrooms were sufficiently poisonous that they would cause death,” the Prosecutor might say “well, they are called Death Cap mushrooms” and that might be a really strong argument as to what might happen if one ingested them. Jmo

RSBM.

The counter to that would simply be for Erin to say, "I didn't know it was a death cap. I picked it thinking it was another type of mushroom." It's not like wild produce comes with labels attached to them.

IMO, the real obstacle for Erin is her claim that she never used any wild mushrooms and everything was sourced from the market. It's makes it very hard for her to now say otherwise.

I'm still flummoxed that her attorneys ever let her make that statement.

 

[Ellery84]

RSBM.

The counter to that would simply be for Erin to say, "I didn't know it was a death cap. I picked it thinking it was another type of mushroom." It's not like wild produce comes with labels attached to them.

IMO, the real obstacle for Erin is her claim that she never used any wild mushrooms and everything was sourced from the market. It's makes it very hard for her to now say otherwise.

Yes, I agree. I think she’s (potentially) in a real pickle. IMO

I'm still flummoxed that her attorneys ever let her make that statement.

 

[SouthAussie]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/mushroom-accuseds-alleged-knowledge-key-kc/news-story/67febd1218ca2015976199ef94194694?amp

Behind a paywall, I think. Posting it here for those who subscribe.

This article basically explains what (I think) we all realise.

They have spoken with a couple of lawyers who say that ...

Police will have to show that EP had detailed knowledge of the effects of DC mushrooms
That there was intent
That defence lawyers will have to wait to see what evidence the police have (the police have to have their brief of evidence to the defence attorneys by about March 2024)
That the defence will test this evidence in the committal hearing next year
That if the magistrate does not push the case to a higher court, the prosecution will directly present her anyway (I presume that means continue the prosecution)
That the defence will be looking for EP to be freed with no conviction
That the defence will try to get the charges dismissed as their first action
Toxicology reports will be central to the case

The article also goes on to explain about the deaths and what happened.

 

[Ellery84]

This article basically explains what (I think) we all realise.

They have spoken with a couple of lawyers who say that ...

Police will have to show that EP had detailed knowledge of the effects of DC mushrooms
That there was intent
That defence lawyers will have to wait to see what evidence the police have (the police have to have their brief of evidence to the defence attorneys by about March 2024)
That the defence will test this evidence in the committal hearing next year
That if the magistrate does not push the case to a higher court, the prosecution will directly present her anyway (I presume that means continue the prosecution)
That the defence will be looking for EP to be freed with no conviction

I was actually wondering if they would perhaps look at a mental health defence somewhere along the line? Am not sure what type of mental health or incapacity defence is available in Victoria.

IMO

That the defence will try to get the charges dismissed as their first action
Toxicology reports will be central to the case

The article also goes on to explain about the deaths and what happened.

Thanks for summarising @SouthAussie , it was a really informative article.

 

[al66pine]

It still doesn’t account for why she would have (allegedly) a motive to murder her ex partners family members, as the Crown have suggested.
IMO
(Granted, Ms. Patterson may be completely innocent…)

@Ellery84 Sorry it was not clear.

In my earlier post* re HYPO estranged couple:
"As time passes, maybe Spouse 1 gets TIRED of WAITING and decides to accelerate things."

I.e., accelerating inheritance that Spouse 1 anticipates Spouse 2 will receive. And making an inheritance - triggered by death(s) - happen before a Dis/Mar, so potentially the prop. & $ Spouse 2 inherits will be considered in negotiating a prop settlement, which Spouse 1 thinks will be more beneficial to her than w'out the inheritance.

ETA: Not saying that hypo Spouse 1's line of thinking about VIC or OZ prop settlements is accurate.

Hoping this will help.
__________________________________
*My earlier post, to which @Ellery84 responded:

Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #6 *Arrest*

There's been no trial yet as far as I know. So she has yet to be found guilty in a court of law.

www.websleuths.com

 

[Ellery84]

@Ellery84 Sorry it was not clear.

In my earlier post* re HYPO estranged couple:
"As time passes, maybe Spouse 1 gets TIRED of WAITING and decides to accelerate things."

I.e., accelerating inheritance that Spouse 1 anticipates Spouse 2 will receive. And making it happen before a Dis/Mar, so potentially the inheritance will be considered in negotiating a prop settlement.

Hoping this will help.
__________________________________
*My earlier post, to which @Ellery84 responded:

Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #6 *Arrest*

There's been no trial yet as far as I know. So she has yet to be found guilty in a court of law.

www.websleuths.com

I still don’t get it. Is it about money potentially? You can message me, it might be easier!! The abbreviations are throwing me!

 

[Chimera]

maybe she feels safer from media etc in custody? her lawyer may have advised her not to as well?

True, and also the surviving family member will be safer with EP in custody !
Win-win.

 

[Chimera]

I don't have access to the article but from the synopsis it seems that to be found guilty of murder, the prosecution has to show that Erin had specific knowledge of the mushroom's adverse effects.

It was claimed in one of the Daily Mail's stories that Erin was an expert forager:
A friend of the Patterson family said Erin was 'very good at foraging' and identifying different mushroom varieties.
'The Patterson family (including Erin and Simon) would pick mushrooms each year when they were in season,' the friend said.

Of course there have been quite a few 'friends' popping up saying various things about Erin, so take it with a grain of salt. But in any case, it seems that Simon should be able to testify to his ex-wife's previous experiences with wild fungi.

Bbm.
This is interesting if accurate.
Sounds not impossible.
I don't think EP sourced the deadly fungi from a local store, for sure.
Omo.

 

[al66pine]

I still don’t get it. Is it about money potentially? You can message me, it might be easier!! The abbreviations are throwing me!

Yes, the $$$.
My apologies again. I just added to my post above.

Abbreviations from above post:
Dis/Mar = Dissolution of Marriage.
i.e. = abbreviation for Latin id est, meaning "that is; in other words"
Hypo = hypothetical.

 

[Ellery84]

Yes, the $$$.
My apologies again. I just added to my post above.

Abbreviations from above post:
Dis/Mar = Dissolution of Marriage.
i.e. = abbreviation for Latin id est, meaning "that is; in other words"
Hypo = hypothetical.

No problem, thanks for the clarification. $$$ might be a possible motive, for sure.

IMO