Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #7 *Arrest*

[al66pine]

Mismatched Plates. Why Not Excluded under Rule Against Hearsay?

Question- is one of the deceased saying she thought the mismatched plates were odd heresay? If not, why isnt it? Thanks for explaining in advance!

@Little Jack Sorry if already covered. Welcoming other opinions or interps. Esp'ly from ppl familiar w Victoria rules.

If the Rules of Evidence there are similar to those of the US fed (Rule 803) or states,
imo likely (4) or maybe (5) below:

"Rule 803. Exceptions to the Rule Against Hearsay​

"The following are not excluded by the rule against hearsay, regardless of whether the declarant is available as a witness:

"(4) Statement Made for Medical Diagnosis or Treatment . A statement that:
(A) is made for — and is reasonably pertinent to — medical diagnosis or treatment; and
(B) describes medical history; past or present symptoms or sensations; their inception; or their general cause."

"(5) Recorded Recollection. A record that:
(A) is on a matter the witness once knew about but now cannot recall well enough to testify fully and accurately;
(B) was made or adopted by the witness when the matter was fresh in the witness’s memory; and
(C) accurately reflects the witness’s knowledge."

__________________________________________________

Rule 803. Exceptions to the Rule Against Hearsay

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[SouthAussie]

Mismatched Plates. Why Not Excluded under Rule Against Hearsay?


@Little Jack Sorry if already covered. Welcoming other opinions or interps. Esp'ly from ppl familiar w Victoria rules.

If the Rules of Evidence there are similar to those of the US fed (Rule 803) or states,
imo likely (4) or maybe (5) below:

"Rule 803. Exceptions to the Rule Against Hearsay​

"The following are not excluded by the rule against hearsay, regardless of whether the declarant is available as a witness:

"(4) Statement Made for Medical Diagnosis or Treatment . A statement that:
(A) is made for — and is reasonably pertinent to — medical diagnosis or treatment; and
(B) describes medical history; past or present symptoms or sensations; their inception; or their general cause."

"(5) Recorded Recollection. A record that:
(A) is on a matter the witness once knew about but now cannot recall well enough to testify fully and accurately;
(B) was made or adopted by the witness when the matter was fresh in the witness’s memory; and
(C) accurately reflects the witness’s knowledge."

__________________________________________________

Rule 803. Exceptions to the Rule Against Hearsay

www.law.cornell.edu

@iamshadow21 posted further back that it may be an exception to the hearsay rule because it was a dying declaration.

It must have been ruled in as acceptable by law in the pre-trial hearings. imo

Especially because both Mr and Mrs Wilkinson mentioned it to different people. Mr Wilkinson to a doctor, and Mrs Wilkinson to Simon.

Post in thread 'Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #7 *Arrest*'

May 1, 2025

Question- is one of the deceased saying she thought the mismatched plates were odd heresay? If not, why isnt it? Thanks for explaining in advance!

I believe it's admissible because the person is deceased.

Dying declaration - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Can a dying declaration be admitted in evidence?

If a fatally wounded person names their killer in a dying declaration to someone who didn’t see the crime, could this be accepted as evidence?

stacklaw.com.au

MOO

• iamshadow21

• 
• 

 

[al66pine]

Phrasing: "Substantial"

Witness: “She got a substantial inheritance of roughly $2m.”

Would anyone say,
"So-and-so got an insubstantial inheritance of two million dollars"?
Not too many, except maybe billionaires?

Not being critical of witness.
We often hear and read ppl saying things similar to this which seem redundant on their face.
Whether AUS$ like in this trial, US$, or other $, when it comes to figures, it's all relative isn't it?

And on the witness stand, just about everybody is nervous.

 

[ch_13]

I have to think the plate scenario is fairly irrelevant IMO.

rsbm.

I disagree. One of the consistent topics of discussion in this thread over the past couple of years is how could Erin have kept herself safe if she was serving tainted portions of food to her guests. The wrong person getting poisoned because they ate or drank from a dish meant for another is a standard trope of mystery fiction.

Well, now we know of a possible modus operandi. By using a different plate for herself, she would have visual certainty that there was no mix-up.

 

[Cartie]

They found the toxins in the leftovers.

Dr Rogers says traces of amanita phalloides mushroom toxins were found on Ms Patterson's dehydrator located at the tip and from leftovers recovered by authorities.

Erin Patterson's lawyer tells jury mushroom poisoning deaths were 'a terrible accident' — as it happened

A Supreme Court jury hears opening submissions in the trial of Victorian woman Erin Patterson, who is accused of using a poisoned meal to murder three relatives. Look back at how it unfolded on our live blog.

www.abc.net.au

As per news article:

The leftovers collected from Erin Patterson’s bin and transported to Monash Medical Centre and the Royal Botanic Gardens were tested and did not show any sign of death cap mushrooms, the jury heard.

 

[Montrealaise]

Of course not. One little detail like a different size and colour plate, by itself, means nothing.

But added together with the dehydrator with her prints and traces of Death Caps, being driven 15km to the tip, and her four guests being deathly ill while she, her 2 kids and her Labrador were unharmed, all together, that looks bad for her.

If you look at all of the above, it appears that she did put deadly dehydrated mushrooms into her Beef Wellington, so the question is, did she KNOW that she did so. Was that intentional on her part?

And a tiny thing like her plate being the only one that was visibly different from the 4 deadly plates---that makes it look more suspicious, IMO.

Murder cases based on circumstantial evidence are like picture puzzles - one piece by itself doesn't tell you anything, but when you put the pieces together, a clear picture starts to emerge.

 

[Cartie]

I remember watching a trial not long ago and the person who looked at phone data, said the 1st thing they do is put it in aeroplane mode so that no-one can remotely access it.

If she did remotely access it, what device did she use, because I thought they took everything, unless it was the missing, current phone.

 

[Montrealaise]

The outcome of the trial will depend on the answer to just one question - did Erin knowingly cook the Beef Wellington with poisonous mushrooms or was it just a tragic mistake and accident? Anything else is just noise.

 

[Montrealaise]

Yes, just by itself, a different plate is no big deal. But taken in context, it COULD be problematic for the defense.

As you say, it is kind of interesting.

IMO, if that 'different' plate was used by the only person at that table who didn't get deathly ill, then it raises questions. Is it just a coincidence?

OR was it used was a way to make sure the cook ate safely from the correct plate?

It obviously made Heather suspicious as well.

Erin was a very good cook and she spent days making this complicated gourmet meal for her guests. Every gourmet cook that I know LOVES to use very fine place settings etc. It's part of the presentation. So I do have a hard time believing she doesn't have a 5th plate that is as large as her 4 grey ones and matched them better.

Again, it may be no big deal in the end. But I do think it is just one more odd detail that points to the probability that the cook knew that the 4 big grey plates contained toxic mushrooms, and the colourful little plate didn't. IMO

The fact that two of her guests mentioned the different plates means that they thought it was not only odd but significant. I wonder whether it had occurred to Simon that his previous three bouts of food poisoning after eating food prepared by Erin weren't really food poisoning at all?

 

[Spectrix]

For anyone wondering how to identify a Death Cap mushroom, this video explains.

Still image below showing Death Caps in various stages of growth.
Note the unique bulbous vulva (base), the skirt (partway up the stem), and the white gills underneath. Also note green/yellow tinge on the top and the stem.

Death Caps rely on a symbiotic relationship with particular hardwood trees, usually Oak trees.

 

[Montrealaise]

For anyone wondering how to identify a Death Cap mushroom, this video explains.

Still image below showing Death Caps in various stages of growth.
Note the unique bulbous vulva (base), the skirt (partway up the stem), and the white gills underneath. Also note green/yellow tinge on the top and the stem.

Death Caps rely on a symbiotic relationship with particular hardwood trees, usually Oak trees.

View attachment 582991

Death Cap mushrooms are native to Europe. Besides Australia, they can be found in a single area of North America: Washington State and, just to the north, the southwestern part of British Columbia. Botanists theorize that they were introduced to those regions by European settlers who brought oak saplings with them to plant in their new home and inadvertently brought along Death Cap spores as well. It's the most poisonous mushroom known to humans.

 

[angelainwi]

It may have been vengeance on her part. She was so angry at him and this would really hurt him. IMO

I said earlier in this thread that I thought the motive was to hurt Simon.

 

[angelainwi]

True.

But it's also possible that, until he didn't show, she expected he would.

She must have had at least one more grey plate. I doubt she was going to serve two meals on orange plates.

JMO

I don't think she was going to kill Simon this time, she wanted him alive to be hurt by his family dying.

 

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[Tortoise]

Was it intended that all of them were wiped out, including her 'ex' ? JMO MOO

I think so, from her text:

The text messages read:
Simon – 28/7/2023 – 6.54pm
Sorry, I feel too uncomfortable about coming to the lunch with you mum, dad, Heather & Ian tomorrow, but am happy to talk about your health and implications of that at another time if you’d like to discuss on the phone. Just let me know.

Erin – 28/7/2023 – 6.59pm
That’s really disappointing, I’ve spent many hours this week preparing lunch for tomorrow which has been exhausting in light of the issues I’m facing and spent a small fortune on beef eye fillet to make beef wellingtons because I wanted it to be a special meal as I may not be able to host a lunch like this again for some time. It’s important to me that you’re all there tomorrow and that I can have the conversations that I need to have. I hope you’ll change your mind. You’re (sic) parents and Heather and Ian are coming at 12.30. I hope to see you there.

Link

I think she expected him to change his mind and when he didn't attend -

a/ the food was prepared and she had nothing else to serve up and
b/ she had already come to terms with killing them too, and if she called off the lunch on the spot it would look obvious she was only doing it to get her husband there, and it was not about her [fake] illness.

I would go further and say I think her husband was her main intended target and she decided to invite others to make accident more plausible.



JMO, if she's found guilty.

 

[Megnut]

I don't think she was going to kill Simon this time, she wanted him alive to be hurt by his family dying.

Initially she expected him to be there IMO. Concept: kill a bunch of people so it doesn't look like you aren't trying to kill just one. I do think she may have taken something to make herself seem sick too, and didn't think it would immediately look suspicious, all eyes on her. If she took a laxative, she'd have some of the same symptoms.

When he said he wasn't coming, either she hoped he would end up coming (capitulating to her guilting/gaslighting/easier to comply than deal with her), but if not, she'd serve up her BW to the rest of them. She could have canceled easily. Say she burned the BW, give everyone their day back, and schedule another try another day.... so revenge? Win him back? Think in his grief over those losses, she could convince him to lean on her? I find serious codependency here. His, likely coming from a sincere placing of loving her, feeling sorry for her, bearing the weight of everything she claims he didn't do right, after all she's his wife and the mother of his children. And hers? Dunno. Childhood history of trauma and... fear of abandonment... history of rejecting him but not wanting him to leave her. Push pull push pull. The cycle becomes the substance of the relationship.

Probably very hard for him to isolate evil intent here. Because it's foreign to him.

JMO

 

[Salah11]

How long is the trial meant to last?

 

[al66pine]

Different Plates Testimony. Why Not Excluded?

@iamshadow21 posted further back that it may be an exception to the hearsay rule because it was a dying declaration.

It must have been ruled in as acceptable by law in the pre-trial hearings. imo

Especially because both Mr and Mrs Wilkinson mentioned it to different people. Mr Wilkinson to a doctor, and Mrs Wilkinson to Simon.

Post in thread 'Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #7 *Arrest*'

May 1, 2025

Question- is one of the deceased saying she thought the mismatched plates were odd heresay? If not, why isnt it? Thanks for explaining in advance!

I believe it's admissible because the person is deceased.

Dying declaration - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Can a dying declaration be admitted in evidence?

If a fatally wounded person names their killer in a dying declaration to someone who didn’t see the crime, could this be accepted as evidence?

stacklaw.com.au

MOO

• iamshadow21

• 
• 

@SouthAussie
Thanks for pointing out this ^ earlier post by @iamshadow21.

US fed Rule of Evidence 804, the Dying Declaration exception to hearsay rule phrasing:
"(2) Statement Under the Belief of Imminent Death. In a prosecution for homicide or in a civil case, a statement that the declarant, while believing the declarant’s death to be imminent, made about its cause or circumstances." *

Guessing that Australian hearsay exceptions rule is similar.

Agreeing that the judge likely made pretrial ruling on admissibility Q. Thanks for noting that too.

_________________________________________________________-
* from Rule 804. Hearsay Exceptions; Declarant Unavailable
https://www.rule 804. Hearsay Exceptions; Declarant Unavailablelaw.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_804#:~:text=Rule%20804(b)(1)%20as%20submitted%20by%20the%20Court,had%20an%20opportunity%20to%20examine%20the%20witness.&text=Rule%20804%20defines%20what%20hearsay%20statements%20are,the%20declarant%20is%20unavailable%20as%20a%20witness.

 

[Megnut]

How long is the trial meant to last?

6 weeks

Erin Patterson: Trial of Australian woman accused of cooking fatal mushroom lunch begins

Erin Patterson admits lying to police about her relatives' deaths, but will argue they were a "terrible accident".

www.bbc.com

 

[Little Jack]

I keep trying to play devil's advocate and see my way to imagining that it was a terrible accident after all, but the stumbling block that I cannot get past is herself and the children not getting sick. Theres just no way.

I know there have been stories of accidental ingestion of death caps and I read one of an experienced forager I believe who had been from china but had relocated to USA.. it was discussed on an earlier thread... but I believe always the preparer of the meal died along with any other guests. Does anyone know of such a case where the server of the meal did not also die?