GUILTY Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 *Arrest* #17

[Megnut]

During EP's nap that she hurried home for, is that when she scraped the beef off the binned 6th serving of BW, disposed of it elsewhere, to bolster her representation that she'd fed the children that beef?

I would have thought she would have said she was hugging the porcelain throne (not napping). More credible at least.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Question: do we know whether the toxin remains detectable in food beyond 48 hours?

Without metabolism, would it simply persist? (I assume it would but I don't know and I'm not everyone.)

At what point did EP direct LE to the binned BW?

If this were a murder mystery, a work of fact and fiction, might a character assume that the toxin itself naturally dissipates after 48 hours? In bodies and beef both? Had all the individuals died at home, the window for testing for toxins would have closed...

It would seem that the concentration of DC/toxin would have more than multiplied its toxicity and delivery. Causing extra-explosive symptoms, more violent than if a small fraction of a whole DC, which might be more survivable, with swift treatment.

Rhetorical question: was EP conscious of 48 hours, with or without correct assumptions, before, during and after, and is it reflected in her actions?

JMO

 

[musicaljoke]

Iam still not convinced she planned to murder five guests, but an attempt to make them sick is certainly where Iam sitting. Not sick enough to go to hospital, and certainly not to undergo toxin testing in the timeframe required for a positive result.

You and I agree that she deliberately planned a meal to harm her guests. It is my opinion that she planned to murder them. If she had only wanted to make them sick, then there are other options that are not deadly. Ipecac or Ex-Lax would make her guests sick without harming them. Using a deadly mushroom suggests that death was the desired outcome.

She likely didn't realise that the medical system would be able to isolate the toxin and trace it back to her.

 

[ch_13]

You and I agree that she deliberately planned a meal to harm her guests. It is my opinion that she planned to murder them. If she had only wanted to make them sick, then there are other options that are not deadly. Ipecac or Ex-Lax would make her guests sick without harming them. Using a deadly mushroom suggests that death was the desired outcome.

She likely didn't realise that the medical system would be able to isolate the toxin and trace it back to her.

Here in the U.S., there's a case where a dentist (allegedly) used cyanide to poison his wife. She died and the hospital had no idea of the cause.

However, an employee in his office opened a package that he expressly told her not to open. And it turned out to have potassium cyanide inside. They didn't use it in the dental practice, so she googled it and only then realized that it matched the exact symptoms that killed the wife. The dentist had refused an autopsy and would have likely cremated her remains, so a few more days and he probably would have been home free.

Thread 'CO - Angela Craig, 43, mother of 6, allegedly poisoned by cyanide in protein shake by dentist husband, Aurora, Mar 2023'

Mar 20, 2023

James Toliver Craig (Aurora Police Department)
A 45-year-old dentist in Colorado faces charges of first-degree murder in the death of his wife, a mother of six children, after severe headaches left her brain dead, investigators said over the weekend.

According to the Aurora Police Department, James Toliver Craig was taken into custody early Sunday morning, days after he allegedly drove his 43-year-old wife to the hospital.

Shortly after arriving at the hospital, the wife’s condition deteriorated rapidly, and she was...

• imstilla.grandma
• Replies: 1,011
• Forum: On-Trial

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If EP did it, she erred in choosing such a unique toxin. There aren't many poisons that so quickly destroy your internal organs.

 

[Skiede]

IMO - Erin Patterson dissolved the Death Cap mushroom powder in water and then injected it into the beef eyelets before wrapping it in the mushroom duxelle and pastry. Hence allowing the police to find the pastry but minus the beef in her wheelie bin. Thinking they won’t find forensic death cap poison in the pastry.

 

[Salah11]

In my opinion, I don't think being found not guilty of murder is something of a gateway to enable other charges such as perverting the course of justice.

I think it would be part of this trial since trials can have multiple charges in play.

So no, I personally don't think if she is found not guilty that the police will place her under arrest her again.

JMO

How do the police know what she did until she confirmed it on the stand?

She admitted in court that’s what she did so therefore surely there should be consequences for her actions.

If your loved one died because a person deliberately lied and delayed the right medical help knowing they was at fault then there should be some kind of justice.

 

[Jake18]

1. It was winter, she may have had an extra jacket and something to occupy her. She went in for fluids so she expected to be there probably for a few hours and be home before the children. If staying overnight she needed to attend to animals. Apart from the dog, she mentioned lambs needing to be brought in.

2. The evidence was inconclusive and unconvincing.

An extra jacket doesn’t require a backpack and a duffel bag. And isn’t generally needed in a heated hospital. If she wasn’t planning to stay, why bring two packed bags?

 

[Salah11]

I am going to guess no verdict today. Let’s hope I am wrong though and justice can finally be served for Simon and his loved ones.

 

[MrJ]

I am going to go against the grain and say I think there will be a verdict today.

 

[Porky1]

An extra jacket doesn’t require a backpack and a duffel bag. And isn’t generally needed in a heated hospital. If she wasn’t planning to stay, why bring two packed bags?

Whether she wanted to stay or not, she may have packed her bags thinking she’d be forced to stay, beyond a night.

Heated hospital? Public hospital’s are freezing in NSW, I can’t imagine VIC is any better. The heated blankets aren’t sufficient for me. Private hospitals are much warmer but she was in a public hospital.

She might have had pj’s, dressing gown, slippers plus personal items. Backpack for tech, charges, books, etc.

 

[Porky1]

I am going to guess no verdict today. Let’s hope I am wrong though and justice can finally be served for Simon and his loved ones.

It’s Monday 7th July and in less than 3 hrs, the jury will commence deliberations. it’s today.

 

[MrJ]

I don't think the jurors on this trial want to be sequestered for too long

 

[KrystalKlear]

Weird that she didn't leave the degradable tissues behind. And gross that she didn't wash her hands in the 9 seconds in the servo toilet.

MOO

So much for her envisaged Nursing/Midwifery career - thorough hand hygiene is a rigorous requirement - and takes minimum of 40 seconds.....

 

[Jake18]

Whether she wanted to stay or not, she may have packed her bags thinking she’d be forced to stay, beyond a night.

Heated hospital? Public hospital’s are freezing in NSW, I can’t imagine VIC is any better. The heated blankets aren’t sufficient for me. Private hospitals are much warmer but she was in a public hospital.

She might have had pj’s, dressing gown, slippers plus personal items. Backpack for tech, charges, books, etc.

But that’s exactly my point. She went in on the morning expecting to stay, with bags packed. People are arguing that she wasn’t expecting to stay, to explain why she needed to go home to feed the dog and organise a ballet bag and lie on the floor.

When she found out the guests had been diagnosed with death caps she suddenly wasn’t ready to stay, and needed to leave to do various things, The prosecution allege she came expecting to stay but then had to leave in a rush to try to cover her tracks.

The more I think about it as well, the more implausible it is that she “popped” into hospital for fluids without feeding the animals. An adult bag of fluid is IL and maintenance rate is 8 hourly. She wasn’t shocked or severely (or at all) dehydrated so no need to push it though quickly. Many hospitals have a short stay unit in the ED where someone can have a bag over 4-6 hours then go home.

So - which is it? She packed a bag expecting to stay for the day and maybe the night, but was surprised to hear that she needed to stay and hadn’t fed animals so needed to go home?

Or - she planned to stay, but realised she had evidence to tidy up?

ETA : IIRC she’d had a c-section with her son so she’d be aware that a bag of fluids takes hours to run through.

 

[Hercule Holmes]

MOO I think EP was quite proud of her devious plan. Her son didn't even know she had a dehydrator, per his testimony. Who knows how long she might have kept it around as a trophy, as many alleged killers do? She disposed of it on 2 August 2023. By that point, doctors suspected her guests had suffered from mushroom poisoning, and she knew that the meal she served was being examined as the possible cause. MOO by then, she knew she could no longer keep her dehydrator "trophy." I have no problem understanding why she disposed of the dehydrator exactly when she did.

Erin Patterson took son on hours-long drive despite feeling sick, murder trial hears — as it happened

Erin Patterson trial day 27 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

Lunch guests' illnesses were 'not survivable', doctor tells mushroom trial

A doctor has detailed the final moments of three lunch guests who died from death cap mushroom poisoning after attending a lunch at Erin Patterson's house.

www.abc.net.au

Agree with the trophy aspect. Until death caps were specifically mentioned at the hospital, there was no reason to have to get rid of it (as long as it was hidden sufficiently to avoid use by one of the kids).

The plates, cookware, serving and eating utensils, mixing bowls, etc. Anything that could have had a trace of death caps (snipped from post #413 above) were different. They had to be disposed of asap for safety reasons - they couldn't be risked being used again by anyone.

This was very likely done on the Sunday. I wonder whether anyone may stumble across a pile of this stuff in the bush one day?

Edit: Or maybe it was all loaded into a duffle bag? She wouldn't have carried the items individually, so they could be somewhere between the hospital and Outtrim?

IF she was found not guilty, or even a hung jury, the finding of the above (and subsequent testing showing DC's) could be influential in a re-trial. Double jeopardy would not apply, as it would constitute significant new evidence.

 

[Marg944]

In the state of Victoria, a jury is permitted to consider a lesser charge of manslaughter, even if it wasn't one of the actual charges. Therefore one way or another we should be expecting a guilty verdict.

I was led to believe that the jury was only to consider murder charges and attempted murder charge. Could you please give a link to your point that the murder charges can be altered to manslaughter charges please?

I believe if she isn’t found guilty of the current charges she will be free to walk.

I thought that it wasn’t clear in this case if the jury can decide on manslaughter instead of murder? I can’t find anything in the judges summing up to the jury.

The jury in the mushroom murder trial is considering a verdict. What happens next?

Twelve jurors will have to consider the prosecution's case, the defence arguments and a judge's directions before they reach their verdicts in Erin Patterson's murder trial.

www.sbs.com.au

 

[Scuffy35]

DBM

 

[Detechtive]

IMO - Erin Patterson dissolved the Death Cap mushroom powder in water and then injected it into the beef eyelets before wrapping it in the mushroom duxelle and pastry. Hence allowing the police to find the pastry but minus the beef in her wheelie bin. Thinking they won’t find forensic death cap poison in the pastry.

I agree with you that she contaminated the beef, not the duxelle. I’m not sure she injected it, I thought maybe she marinated it in death cap powder and water, because I was reading how if you put powdered mushrooms into a duxelle without the exact right water content it will make it dry and inedible, like chalk. IMO

Although, your theory would be more accurate and give her more control, so it's probably more viable! IMO

 

[Hercule Holmes]

But that’s exactly my point. She went in on the morning expecting to stay, with bags packed. People are arguing that she wasn’t expecting to stay, to explain why she needed to go home to feed the dog and organise a ballet bag and lie on the floor.

When she found out the guests had been diagnosed with death caps she suddenly wasn’t ready to stay, and needed to leave to do various things, The prosecution allege she came expecting to stay but then had to leave in a rush to try to cover her tracks.

The more I think about it as well, the more implausible it is that she “popped” into hospital for fluids without feeding the animals. An adult bag of fluid is IL and maintenance rate is 8 hourly. She wasn’t shocked or severely (or at all) dehydrated so no need to push it though quickly. Many hospitals have a short stay unit in the ED where someone can have a bag over 4-6 hours then go home.

So - which is it? She packed a bag expecting to stay for the day and maybe the night, but was surprised to hear that she needed to stay and hadn’t fed animals so needed to go home?

Or - she planned to stay, but realised she had evidence to tidy up?

ETA : IIRC she’d had a c-section with her son so she’d be aware that a bag of fluids takes hours to run through.

Yep, see my post below yours.

I'm tipping one of those bags (likely the duffle bag) contained crockery and utensils. It may have been sitting in the car since Sunday, when she didn't get the chance to dispose of it due to the cancelled flying lesson. She said she did the roadside toilet stop, but the son refutes that. The 9 second toilet visit could have been phone A going in the sanitary bin, as that was the most important (and easiest) thing to get rid of. Edit: Wasn't phone A.

When she turned up at the hospital, she wasn't game to leave the bag in the car, in case she was admitted for a significant period of time. That would have meant losing control over who might access the car and see what was in the bag.

Then a rushed departure, where her "nap" was spent on the Bass Hwy heading towards Outtrim?

 

[Detechtive]

Yep, see my post below yours.

I'm tipping one of those bags (likely the duffle bag) contained crockery and utensils. It may have been sitting in the car since Sunday, when she didn't get the chance to dispose of it due to the cancelled flying lesson. She said she did the roadside toilet stop, but the son refutes that. The 9 second toilet visit could have been phone A going in the sanitary bin, as that was the most important (and easiest) thing to get rid of.

When she turned up at the hospital, she wasn't game to leave the bag in the car, in case she was admitted for a significant period of time. That would have meant losing control over who might access the car and see what was in the bag.

Then a rushed departure, where her "nap" was spent on the Bass Hwy heading towards Outtrim?

She still had Phone A after August 5, so it can't have been the phone going in the bin the day after the lunch, but I think she got rid of something out Outtrim way - a spot she was familiar with from her Death Cap foraging adventures prior. IMO