Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[gymtonic]

oh wow I did not know this. Thank you for reposting. I always thought the bank accomplice was a far fetched theory but now, geez, nothing is off the table.

Nothing...literally nothing, is far fetched to me after sitting through the inquest testimonies of DdH and RB

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Colonial merged with Comm Bank in Dec 2000

Very useful, thank you

I know wiki says 'Colonial merged with Comm Bank in Dec 2000', that was the official turnover date, but the process began several years earlier. The inquest mentioned last year (and I think former staff mentioned this a while back too) that in 1997, there was already some crossover, with staff easily working between the two banks and branches.

 

[Estelle]

I’ve seen their arrival cards. I was getting cranky cos I could actually fin the route. But now I understand ship went uk, Panama, Sam Francisco Sydney

Were they the only ports that the Chusan docked at on its way to Australia on their voyage? There would have been many sea days between ports. I also noticed it had first class and tourist class passengers. I wonder if they were all in the same class? I can't imagine RB paying for first class.

 

[gymtonic]

Very useful, thank you

I know wiki says 'Colonial merged with Comm Bank in Dec 2000', that was the official turnover date, but the process began several years earlier. The inquest mentioned last year (and I think former staff mentioned this a while back too) that in 1997, there was already some crossover, with staff easily working between the two banks and branches.

Do you think though that what they meant was that the process was started years before to put procedures in place? (and yes staff may have been moved around to get trained in different areas)

Having experienced a few name changes and mergers with my own bank, I know that they send out notifications to customers to keep them up- -to- date with the process, but the bank procedures, Mastheads and account details like BSB don't change until the official date. I noted this as significant because there was some discussion about the CommBank document showing an electronic transfer and whether this could have been from a Colonial account but was during the "changeover" period. I accepted that it could be a print out from investigations at a later date but if it was a contemporaneous document (from 1997) my conclusion would be that it was a CommBank a/c and not CSB a/c as it predated the merger.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Were they the only ports that the Chusan docked at on its way to Australia on their voyage? There would have been many sea days between ports. I also noticed it had first class and tourist class passengers. I wonder if they were all in the same class? I can't imagine RB paying for first class.

I can’t imagine him paying for anything… hence why most of his life has been funded by ‘others’

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Do you think though that what they meant was that the process was started years before to put procedures in place? (and yes staff may have been moved around to get trained in different areas)

Having experienced a few name changes and mergers with my own bank, I know that they send out notifications to customers to keep them up- -to- date with the process, but the bank procedures, Mastheads and account details like BSB don't change until the official date. I noted this as significant because there was some discussion about the CommBank document showing an electronic transfer and whether this could have been from a Colonial account but was during the "changeover" period. I accepted that it could be a print out from investigations at a later date but if it was a contemporaneous document (from 1997) my conclusion would be that it was a CommBank a/c and not CSB a/c as it predated the merger.

Yes, exactly

I do believe there were two separate banks Marion's money was withdrawn from.

The biggest evidence is that we know for sure the daily $5k didn't come from Colonial as they DO have records of Marion's accounts and transactions, even beyond the time they are expected to keep records (7 years I think), AND they are the ones who 'closed down', yet they have no record of the daily $5k.

It's Commonwealth that didn't keep old records. With their track record, I think it is very smart and convenient to not keep the records once they don't have to, lol. Particularly records from that time frame.

So I am very curious to see the origin of this 'Commonwealth document'. It may have even originated from another bank, financial institution or authority

 

[BonnieB]

The whole bank situation is rather confusing. I'm gonna try breaking it down to see where it lands...

Withdrawals means cash was physically removed from account.
Electronic transfer means money was moved from one account to 'another account'.
Another account means:

• a different account of same person with the same bank or a different bank
• someone else's personal account
• a business account, for the purpose of paying a bill or purchase
• a different financial institution, so another person can go and collect it, aka wire transfer.

Daily $5k Byron withdrawals, Aug-Sept 1997

• Assumed to be cash withdrawals.
• Sally heard about this on 21 Oct 1997, from Commonwealth telebanking call centre.
• The cash could have been taken home, immediately deposited into another account, or stored in a security envelope.

$80k from Ashmore, 15 Oct 1997

• Unclear if it was withdrawn or transferred.
• In April 1998 GC Byron Police said, ''$80k was electronically transferred to another account, possibly overseas, to start a new life with her partner.''
• In March 1999, Salvation Army said they spoke to police, who spoke to bank who said, ''Marion withdrew $80k (the balance of her account) and spoke of starting a new life’'.
• Colonial say they never received a call from police making enquiries about Marion.

14 Oct 1997
FDdH pays $13 from joint account to purchase / put something into a safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Bank Ballina, which only he can access. The most commonly used size is an A3 envelope.

14 or 15 Oct 1997
In Feb 2022 we learned that in brief of evidence, there’s a Commonwealth document showing an ‘automatic funds transfer’.

27 Oct 1997
RB cancels safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Ballina.

@Binniem thank you for your very useful explanations! Basically, at the time, if people wanted to transfer money between their accounts, they'd usually withdraw the cash, walk over to their other bank and make a cash deposit there. That's because transferring money between other banks needed to be done 'in branch' for a fee.

So it is possible that the 'document' is a record of that transaction.

Please let me know if I got anything wrong

Thank you for a clear summary. Just one minor difference of dates between what Sally remembers & noted and what is recorded by BB police. Sally definitely remembers calling the bank call centre on 19th October and driving to Byron the following day to report the bank activity (20th October). The police deny this because the official police report is dated 22nd October. I don't know if it makes any difference but just setting things straight.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Thank you for a clear summary. Just one minor difference of dates between what Sally remembers & noted and what is recorded by BB police. Sally definitely remembers calling the bank call centre on 19th October and driving to Byron the following day to report the bank activity (20th October). The police deny this because the official police report is dated 22nd October. I don't know if it makes any difference but just setting things straight.

The 19th was a Sunday. Would tele-banking available? Also, she called her friend at customs the same day, right?

 

[Roseberry]

I thought the same so contacted Manor Farm Oast House to see if they still have records from 1997. They do and kindly checked for me and there was no record of MB or FNMR staying there then.

They did say that in 1997 there was another oast house in the village offering accommodation but it has since shut down and been converted into apartments.

They also told me that a man visited a few months ago asking the same questions and they looked for the two names he asked for. They also looked for a Dutch couple Marion said she had met but got no results.

The case was in their local paper a few weeks ago which may jog some memories.

This is really interesting. Did they tell you the name of the other oast farm in the village? I have a name for one in the area with an interesting history - let's see if it matches! I keep coming back to the idea that RB (of MB alone at his direction) was travelling well-known paths and returning to old haunts and 'acquaintances'.

 

[BonnieB]

The 19th was a Sunday. Would tele-banking available? Also, she called her friend at customs the same day, right?

It was a Sunday, and also the second day Marion had failed to contact her brother. Her dinner guests suggested she call the bank immediately, which she did.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

It was a Sunday, and also the second day Marion had failed to contact her brother. Her dinner guests suggested she call the bank immediately, which she did.

Thank you so much, it does all make a difference! It's even more infuriating to me now. Sally was so, so close.

If Marion was harmed and hidden, or any bank records and evidence destroyed, then the police delay might've been very useful to the perpetrator and accomplices It was a full week between withdrawing the last of the money and police entering the occurrence on the system.

Wed 15 Oct 1997
$80k withdrawn from Colonial

Sat 18 Oct 1997
Owen’s birthday

Sun 19 Oct 1997
Sally calls Commonwealth telebanking and friend from customs

Mon 20 Oct 1997
Sally visits Commonwealth Byron and Byron police

Wed 22 Oct 1997
Byron police note the occurrence today rather than Mon 20th

 

[gymtonic]

Yes, exactly

I do believe there were two separate banks Marion's money was withdrawn from.

The biggest evidence is that we know for sure the daily $5k didn't come from Colonial as they DO have records of Marion's accounts and transactions, even beyond the time they are expected to keep records (7 years I think), AND they are the ones who 'closed down', yet they have no record of the daily $5k.

It's Commonwealth that didn't keep old records. With their track record, I think it is very smart and convenient to not keep the records once they don't have to, lol. Particularly records from that time frame.

So I am very curious to see the origin of this 'Commonwealth document'. It may have even originated from another bank, financial institution or authority

There is one other outlier piece of information in my notes, that I thought I got from the inquest but could have been the podcast and I can't see anyone else referencing it...can anyone else say if they noted this?:

28 August 1997: Note by Graham Childs re bank transfer on this date

 

[Deleted member 249471]

There is one other outlier piece of information in my notes, that I thought I got from the inquest but could have been the podcast and I can't see anyone else referencing it...can anyone else say if they noted this?: 28 August 1997: Note by Graham Childs re bank transfer on this date

I don't have anything, but I've missed a lot of things. How interesting!

 

[BonnieB]

Thank you so much, it does all make a difference! It's even more infuriating to me now. Sally was so, so close.

If Marion was harmed and hidden, or any bank records and evidence destroyed, then the police delay might've been very useful to the perpetrator and accomplices It was a full week between withdrawing the last of the money and police entering the occurrence on the system.

Wed 15 Oct 1997
$80k withdrawn from Colonial

Sat 18 Oct 1997
Owen’s birthday

Sun 19 Oct 1997
Sally calls Commonwealth telebanking and friend from customs

Mon 20 Oct 1997
Sally visits Commonwealth Byron and Byron police

Wed 22 Oct 1997
Byron police note the occurrence today rather than Mon 20th

We can't even imagine Sally's frustration...so close! So many opportunities to trace her mum's movements lost. It's heartbreaking.

 

[gymtonic]

Yes, exactly

I do believe there were two separate banks Marion's money was withdrawn from.

The biggest evidence is that we know for sure the daily $5k didn't come from Colonial as they DO have records of Marion's accounts and transactions, even beyond the time they are expected to keep records (7 years I think), AND they are the ones who 'closed down', yet they have no record of the daily $5k.

It's Commonwealth that didn't keep old records. With their track record, I think it is very smart and convenient to not keep the records once they don't have to, lol. Particularly records from that time frame.

So I am very curious to see the origin of this 'Commonwealth document'. It may have even originated from another bank, financial institution or authority

So are you saying that (ref my note)

· Money from house sale put into a High Performance Cash a/c. with daily limit of $5,000

that this High Performance Cash a/c was a CommBank account and that we know this for sure because CSB don't have records of the withdrawals from this account? I thought we "knew" that this account was with CSB?

My sense making of it so far was that MB had maybe 2 CSB accounts:
(1) the High Performance Cash account opened up to deposit the house sale $ and this is the one that was drained of the $5000 daily withdrawals. and
(2) a preexisting pre-house sale account from which the $80,000 was "transferred" to close the account.

 

[Roseberry]

1.

Just to clarify a common misconception, we don’t know if RB presented himself to Marion as FNR.
Agree
2.In RB’s version of events (to be taken with a grain of salt), they first met in Switzerland when he was WW.
Agree. This may or may not have happened with someone, but suspect not with MB, suspect he was trying to make a point with establishing a prior relationships and MB predispositions; ie he was the hunted not the hunter.
3.He claims they met again in 1996 or 97 after she posted a lonely hearts ad that he responded to. At inquest, he first said he responded as WW, then he said he can’t remember. I don’t think he was asked what name Marion specifically called him, maybe this will happen in April?
Clearly changing stories, and I think he may have been questioned on this, and result was inconclusive, will have to re-listen again. As for her posting the ad and not him, see (3) above re: establishing predispositions. For actually establishing connection with the women, we have only two real sources - advertisements placed in newspapers (RB and GGB) and connections through recent ex-husbands (JO). Both should be explored, as should 'advertisements' ie MB teacher of the year award in newspaper.
4.RB also claims he never used the FNR name or licence other than for the 1994 Le Courrier rencontre (obviously, I don't believe it).
Neither. But don't forget the tenuous connection to the R name from the payroll clerk at the timeshare opposite the Arts centre, where MB told SL she met the man in the car at the service station. All are possibilities, and all may add up, especially in a situation where it appears there are VERY few coincidences.
5.We have no idea if Marion ever saw the 1994 rencontre, and we have no evidence RB ever called himself FNR during his affair with Marion in 1996/97.
Agree. Hardly likely she would have seen the ad. But it's an 'out' that conveniently deflects from the real reason behind the introduction. And no, we don't have any evidence he called himself FNR to her. See below (9).
6.Also note that RB used the Richard Westbury alias to travel in and out of Aus to Japan during Marion’s disappearance.
Agree. Could well be. It's a nice clean passport. She might have known him as RW. But there's a sticky for me @Peralta! See (9) below:
7.It is possible RB flew the JAL leg of the trip as Richard Westbury, then used FNR, Fredy David or some other name for the European leg of the trip when he was allegedly with Marion.
Could be, but I think Fredy David (or Freddy - he could have at least learnt how to spell it) might have been retired once it was attached to the deH name and an attempt at 'respectability', in at least one facet of his life.
8.The reason I bring up Fredy David is that he and DdH excessively lied to obscure that alias, so I wonder if he was still using it overseas?
See (7) above.
9.Which leads us to ask, what name did RB actually use on Marion? There might be other reasons why Marion changed her name to FNMR, other than ‘it was RB’s name' and 'she married him’.
I agree. But if we assume that it was Marion who changed her name, it would be at his specific suggestion to FNMR. And why the FNMR? There would, in all practicality, have to be some 'justifiable' reason: eg It is my name, we should have the same. Underlying: The initials and the surname are perhaps for a specific ID theft reason. There are very few coincidences in this story. Everything is done for a purpose. And if it was not MB who engineered and implemented the name change, we may well end up with the same conclusion.
10.As we’ve discussed, despite what it says on Marion’s passenger cards, there’s no evidence that she ran away permanently and was currently a married housewife living in Luxembourg. In fact, we know much of that sentence is not true.
Agree wholeheartedly. There's nothing on that sentence in that passenger card that speaks to the truth, perhaps just what MB believes to be the truth.
11.To me, it just looks as though someone tried very hard to make it look that way. Just IMO.

Agree. And the whole concept of the possibility of pre-filling passenger cards for later use and the general uncertainty regarding who is crossing borders and when, makes this all very problematic.

Thanks, @Peralta, for opportunity for reasoned discussion on this. Apologies for the replies in red, green didn't show up so well.

So if you don't think he used FNR with MB - what name do you think he used, and why?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

So are you saying that (ref my note)

· Money from house sale put into a High Performance Cash a/c. with daily limit of $5,000

that this High Performance Cash a/c was a CommBank account and that we know this for sure because CSB don't have records of the withdrawals from this account? I thought we "knew" that this account was with CSB?

My sense making of it so far was that MB had maybe 2 CSB accounts:
(1) the High Performance Cash account opened up to deposit the house sale $ and this is the one that was drained of the $5000 daily withdrawals. and
(2) a preexisting pre-house sale account from which the $80,000 was "transferred" to close the account.

Sorry if I was confusing. No, not at all. I was suggesting that the daily $5k withdrawals were NOT made at the Colonial and were definitely Commonwealth.

Because if the daily $5k withdrawals were made at Colonial, then they would have records for it as they had records for everything else. That was all I meant.


This is a new observation though:

We know for sure Marion's mortgage was at Colonial and once her house sold and mortgage was discharged, it was put in the new high earning account. It was definitely a new account.

But why did she put it into a new account? It can mean two things:

• she had a second 'everyday' account at Colonial for her wage and savings, but she wanted to keep her house sale money separate so she could eventually use it to buy another home, OR
• she didn't have another account at Colonial because her 'everyday' account was at Commonwealth.

It's interesting Colonial NEVER mentioned Marion having another account. But she must've had one somewhere, right?

So now, it makes sense why Marion did have at least $85k at Commonwealth - that was withdrawn in $5k wads of cash between Aug-Sept.

All this to say, I'm not sure why we've been so reluctant to believe the Commonwealth bank story is true. I think it makes sense.

Sorry for breaking brains today

 

[Aldona]

No

This is really interesting. Did they tell you the name of the other oast farm in the village? I have a name for one in the area with an interesting history - let's see if it matches! I keep coming back to the idea that RB (of MB alone at his direction) was travelling well-known paths and returning to old haunts and 'acquaintances'.

No name, but I’ll try and find out. Would be very interesting to see if it matches.

I have been wondering how RB kept in touch with MB if she was travelling in Sussex by herself. It doesn’t sound as though either of them used mobile phones in 1997. Any ideas?

 

[gymtonic]

Sorry if I was confusing. No, not at all. I was suggesting that the daily $5k withdrawals were NOT made at the Colonial and were definitely Commonwealth.

Because if the daily $5k withdrawals were made at Colonial, then they would have records for it as they had records for everything else. That was all I meant.


This is a new observation though:

We know for sure Marion's mortgage was at Colonial and once her house sold and mortgage was discharged, it was put in the new high earning account. It was definitely a new account.

But why did she put it into a new account? It can mean two things:

• she had a second 'everyday' account at Colonial for her wage and savings, but she wanted to keep her house sale money separate so she could eventually use it to buy another home, OR
• she didn't have another account at Colonial because her 'everyday' account was at Commonwealth.

It's interesting Colonial NEVER mentioned Marion having any other account. But she must've had one somewhere, right?

So now, it makes sense why Marion did have at least $85k at Commonwealth - that was withdrawn in $5k wads of cash between Aug-Sept.

All this to say, I'm not sure why we've been so reluctant to believe the Commonwealth bank story is true. I think it makes sense.

Sorry for breaking brains today

Ha, ha... yes my brain did explode! but it's always good to challenge what you thought you knew, with other well reasoned and put together alternative perspectives

I found some of the references in my notes:

• Podcast Episode 20 of Inquest Part 1: High Performance Cash Account was opened in June 1997 and closed with remaining funds ($14,000) sent to unclaimed funds.
• Podcast Episode 21 of Inquest Part 2: 28 August 1997 GC notes bank transfer on this date
• Podcast Episode 27 of Inquest Part 8: PM from MisPer Units notes that $95,000 was removed from a/c . I assumed this was the High Performance Cash Account and the one from which the $5000 daily withdrawals were withdrawn. (using this info I calculated it was done over 19 days, in Branch on week days only and thus over nearly 4 weeks calendar time.)

So if you look at the first note that there was $14,000 left that was sent to unclaimed funds then this together with the knowledge that the $80,000 "transfer" on October 15 was the remaining amount in that account and effectively closed that account, IMO that suggests 2 separate CSB accounts.

I also could have sworn I had a note somewhere that one of the police had a note in a diary of 2 bank account numbers...but I cannot find that anywhere now. Maybe I posted about it before but I will have to keep searching.

EDIT: Found it at Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

 

[DK007]

I did mention this case awhile back and queried whether Mr aka might have been in Europe in May/June 1995?

The use of a fake British name for the victim and the perpetrator going by the name of Lois Fairgate. The fake but almost real Belgium address. The perpetrator leaving the victim on her own for much of the time.

I know the chances are slim but this guy used violence in the end. As Mr aka was in the Belgium gendarmerie would he have possessed a service issued or stolen weapon whilst living in or moving around Europe?

Is Lois Fairgate also known as Jennifer Fairgate? Or The Oslo Women ?
Jennifer Fairgate
Jennifer Fergate?

On June 3, 1995, the body of a woman was found inside room 2805. She checked into the hotel with the false name of "Jennifer Fairgate", but she misspelled the last name as "Fergate" twice on hotel paperwork.