Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

Status
Not open for further replies.
No


No name, but I’ll try and find out. Would be very interesting to see if it matches.

I have been wondering how RB kept in touch with MB if she was travelling in Sussex by herself. It doesn’t sound as though either of them used mobile phones in 1997. Any ideas?

Well, this kind of comes back to the whole idea of RB re-visiting old haunts, and either taking or sending MB to known places where he knew he could contact her. Don't forget the MO of JO (such a gift as regards to his MO, although admittedly not for her) of delivery to a place, and subsequent abandonment. He has well-travelled rat-runs and returns to well-known places, and established connections in all of these places; whether it be for coin-related interests or other 'interests'. He's a creature of habit: re-uses known names, and returns to familiar territories.

It seems from MB's postcards, she stayed in B&B's, but ultimately appears to have had a base from which to do her tours. There's many possibilities, and I don't have the answer, but look first at where he lived before, and who he might've known in the area, from when he lived there in the 1980's. Outside of annoyingly public B&B's at the time, there's lovely private families on oast farms, who he may have known. I can think of at least two connections we've discussed who may fit the bill, there's perhaps a third in convenient Ickelsham, that may not be Manor Farm. He won't be concerned about returning to visit, they know him, and what he's about.

MB for sure was in the area; she posted cards, hard to believe they were contrived in any way, some apparently from after she returned to Australia. At least one appeared to be blank, only addressed. That may speak to:
1.MB oblivious and still in the UK post 2 Aug 1997
2.a sudden departure (of whatever kind) and an accomplice posting
3.a sudden departure (of whatever kind) and someone unconnected finding them and posting

None of the above speaks to a good end, but if we're looking for connections she may have met in the area, the Dutch dentist and Maz are still good places to go.
 
Ha, ha... yes my brain did explode! but it's always good to challenge what you thought you knew, with other well reasoned and put together alternative perspectives

I found some of the references in my notes:
  • Podcast Episode 20 of Inquest Part 1: High Performance Cash Account was opened in June 1997 and closed with remaining funds ($14,000) sent to unclaimed funds.
  • Podcast Episode 21 of Inquest Part 2: 28 August 1997 GC notes bank transfer on this date
  • Podcast Episode 27 of Inquest Part 8: PM from MisPer Units notes that $95,000 was removed from a/c . I assumed this was the High Performance Cash Account and the one from which the $5000 daily withdrawals were withdrawn. (using this info I calculated it was done over 19 days, in Branch on week days only and thus over nearly 4 weeks calendar time.)
So if you look at the first note that there was $14,000 left that was sent to unclaimed funds then this together with the knowledge that the $80,000 "transfer" on October 15 was the remaining amount in that account and effectively closed that account, IMO that suggests 2 separate CSB accounts.

Sorry, I still don't understand why you think the $5k daily cash withdrawals were made at Colonial, hehehee.

I think perhaps you're confusing:
  • 'high performance' Colonial account with a $5k withdrawal limit, with
  • $5k withdrawn daily from Commonwealth.
These are two separate things. The 'high performance' account was definitely the new Colonial account where the house sale money was placed after mortgage was discharged. Colonial's manager said the $80k withdrawn was the 'balance of her account'. No other Colonial account was mentioned.

With regards to the $14k returned from Barclays to Commonwealth as unclaimed funds, that was in 2004 due to seven years of inactivity. So, it could not have 'closed the Colonial account'. Removing the $80k did.

As for the $5k daily cash withdrawals from Commonwealth, we don't know what kind of account it was. It's assumed that account also had a $5k withdrawal limit simply due to the precise amount taken.

That $95,000 figure is debatable. Some sources say $95k others $220k. Nobody knows because there are no records. If there were records, then we'd know precisely which bank, what dates and by who! So I don't trust anyone who claims to know the exact figure.

We were told: $5k withdrawn daily at Commonwealth for 3.5 weeks during Aug-Sept at Byron Bay, and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads.

Banks, especially non-metro ones, don't open everyday now, much less in 1997. So the figure I'm using is between $85k to $120k to adjust for whether it was open on weekends... and you know... maybe they didn't literally go EVERY day.

I did some math to see if it checks out:
  • Marion purchased her Southport home in 1994 for $180,000.
  • The house sold 3 years later in 1997 for $165,000.
  • She had a mortgage so she must've paid a deposit and 3 years of payments.
  • Whatever was left after mortgage discharge, was placed in new Colonial account.
  • The balance of that account ($80,000) was taken in a lump sum on 15 Oct 1997.
  • Marion was a teacher for about 30 years.
  • A teacher's salary was about $38,ooo a year.
Given this math, Marion would've had significant savings in another account.
What bank was it at? Where did it go?
Couldn't be Colonial because they never mentioned a second account.

My guess is, Sally and tele-banking woman were correct - $5k withdrawn daily from Commonwealth for 3.5 weeks at Byron Bay/Burleigh Heads, totalling between $85k to $120k. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm missing something?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Gold Coast Bulletin April 6 2019

https://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.a...ws-story/7c1fac6587b7edf23abb3eb08396d259?amp

"Ms Leydon said something happened at TSS that upset her mother. The normally calm and measured woman put in her resignation in June 1997 and decided to take an overseas holiday – a lifetime dream of catching the Orient Express"

“There was a lot of tall poppy syndrome (at the school). “She told me one night, she was in tears. She mentioned a couple of people at the school who she wasn’t happy with and then she told me someone had accused her of touching a boy.

“She was absolutely mortified ... inconsolable. She was so unhappy and so upset by that claim. She didn’t really elaborate too much.”
"
 
Is Lois Fairgate also known as Jennifer Fairgate? Or The Oslo Women ?
Jennifer Fairgate
Jennifer Fergate?

On June 3, 1995, the body of a woman was found inside room 2805. She checked into the hotel with the false name of "Jennifer Fairgate", but she misspelled the last name as "Fergate" twice on hotel paperwork.
Lois was assumed to be the man that checked in with Jennifer, but there's also a lot of conflicting information from various witnesses in that case too about whether it was a man who checked. when I read about that case I always wondered why certain things about spelling weren't challenged, for example:
  • Lois with that spelling is a female name, whereas Louis would be a male spelling.
  • Fer in French and other European languages would be pronounced "Fair" (as in Chemin de Fer which is pronounced Shuhman duh fair), so it could be that Jennifer spoke her name to the checkin as how she would pronounce Fergate and the checkin person heard it as, and wrote down, Fair-gate.
 
  • Sorry, I still don't understand why you think the $5k daily cash withdrawals were made at Colonial, hehehee.

    I think perhaps you're confusing:
    • 'high performance' Colonial account with a $5k withdrawal limit, with
    • $5k withdrawn daily from Commonwealth.
    These are two separate things. The 'high performance' account was definitely the new Colonial account where the house sale money was placed after mortgage was discharged. Colonial's manager said the $80k withdrawn was the 'balance of her account'. No other Colonial account was mentioned.

    With regards to the $14k returned from Barclays to Commonwealth as unclaimed funds, that was in 2004 due to seven years of inactivity. So, it could not have 'closed the Colonial account'. Removing the $80k did.

    As for the $5k daily cash withdrawals from Commonwealth, we don't know what kind of account it was. It's assumed that account also had a $5k withdrawal limit simply due to the precise amount taken.

    That $95,000 figure is debatable. Some sources say $95k others $220k. Nobody knows because there are no records. If there were records, then we'd know precisely which bank, what dates and by who! So I don't trust anyone who claims to know the exact figure.

    We were told: $5k withdrawn daily at Commonwealth for 3.5 weeks during Aug-Sept at Byron Bay, and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads.

    Banks, especially non-metro ones, don't open everyday now, much less in 1997. So the figure I'm using is between $85k to $120k to adjust for whether it was open on weekends... and you know... maybe they didn't literally go EVERY day.

    I did some math to see if it checks out:
    • Marion purchased her Southport home in 1994 for $180,000.
    • The house sold 3 years later in 1997 for $165,000.
    • She had a mortgage so she must've paid a deposit and 3 years of payments.
    • Whatever was left after mortgage discharge, was placed in new Colonial account.
    • The balance of that account ($80,000) was taken in a lump sum on 15 Oct 1997.
    • Marion was a teacher for about 30 years.
    • A teacher's salary was about $38,ooo a year.
    Given this math, Marion would've had significant savings in another account.
    What bank was it at? Where did it go?
    Couldn't be Colonial because they never mentioned a second account.

    My guess is, Sally and tele-banking woman were correct - $5k withdrawn daily from Commonwealth for 3.5 weeks at Byron Bay/Burleigh Heads, totalling between $85k to $120k. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm missing something?

    Tee hee...more brain explosion!
    I just wish I could work out where I got that note about GC BB Police writing two account numbers in his notes, because that's what set me off on the track of there being 2 CSB accounts, and then the sense I made was that (if SL was adamant it was done at the CommBank) the $5000 was withdrawn from the CSB High Performance account BUT at the Commonwealth Bank BB and Burleigh Branches. Why someone would do that or whether that could be done I don't know!! That was what was confusing me.

    It was an assumption of mine that the $95,000 statement of PM was more accurate because it was made closer to the time in a contemporaneous diary account of hers.

    Agree...Another thing to clear up was whether MB cleared and was left with $165,000 from the house sale or whether it was less due to repaying any mortgage loan. She had a mortgage right? so this implies she didn't own the house outright and was still paying it off, so she would not get all the proceeds of the sale?
 
Last edited:
Podcast Episode 21 of Inquest Part 2: 28 August 1997 GC notes bank transfer on this date

Thanks for the source :) I Looked it up.
Ep 21, at 4m 44. At inquest 2021, GC talks about his hand written notes made at 1:15 pm, 22 Oct 1997:
  • a telegraphic transfer of money to an overseas bank on 28 August 1997
  • Marion acted on her bank account a number of times, including several times at Byron Bay
  • a list of transactions
Very interesting. These were GC's hand written notes. His COPS entries in system didn't contain any of this info or detail. Plus they lost Marion's file. This was only uncovered at the inquest last year. I'm just so, so, so :mad:

So now there's the possibility of two transfers - 28 Aug and 15 Oct 1997.
Colonial never mentioned anything about the August one.
And it's possible the October one relates to her $80k from Colonial.
I cannot wait to find out more in April.
 
Ah @Peralta, I've had a thunk....and I know why I also thought there were 2 CSB accounts....because David Martin the Bank Manager at CSB at Ashmore said he knew her well and would recognise her if she went in to that branch, and she had a mortgage loan through CSB which would normally only be possible if you had a linked savings account at the same bank where your salary was paid and your payments would be taken directly from that account. Given that the High Performance Cash Account where the house sale $ was deposited was only set up in June 1997, I assumed that she still had the previous linked account open.
 
Agree...Another thing to clear up was whether MB cleared and was left with $165,000 from the house sale or whether it was less due to repaying any mortgage loan. She had a mortgage right? so this implies she didn't own the house outright and was still paying it off, so she would not get all the proceeds of the sale?
100%. I think only getting $80k back from sale of house is exactly right, after placing a deposit and making repayments for just 3 years.

After her mortgage repayments, she would've still had a bunch left over from her wage. Times that left over amount by 30 years of teaching. There has to me more money than the $80k from Colonial and $20k (or $14k) from Barclays. I have no reason to doubt Sally and the bunch of money allegedly taken from Commonwealth.
 
Ah @Peralta, I've had a thunk....and I know why I also thought there were 2 CSB accounts....because David Martin the Bank Manager at CSB at Ashmore said he knew her well and would recognise her if she went in to that branch, and she had a mortgage loan through CSB which would normally only be possible if you had a linked savings account at the same bank where your salary was paid and your payments would be taken directly from that account. Given that the High Performance Cash Account where the house sale $ was deposited was only set up in June 1997, I assumed that she still had the previous linked account open.
But do you really need to have your saving account at the same bank as your mortgage?
Look, it's possible she did have 2 accounts at Colonial, but they never specifically said so o_O
At some point, I actually thought maybe RB made her transfer her savings from Colonial to Commonwealth just so he could withdraw it.
I guess the point is there was definitely more money that's unaccounted for and I personally am going to go with Sally's story. But feel free to keep on your path, I won't argue anymore, hehheee. It has been an enlightening discussion nonetheless :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lois was assumed to be the man that checked in with Jennifer, but there's also a lot of conflicting information from various witnesses in that case too about whether it was a man who checked. when I read about that case I always wondered why certain things about spelling weren't challenged, for example:
  • Lois with that spelling is a female name, whereas Louis would be a male spelling.
  • Fer in French and other European languages would be pronounced "Fair" (as in Chemin de Fer which is pronounced Shuhman duh fair), so it could be that Jennifer spoke her name to the checkin as how she would pronounce Fergate and the checkin person heard it as, and wrote down, Fair-gate.
Yes intriguing case! I wonder where RB was on May 31, 1995 when Jennifer Fairgate was found dead? Would anyone know?
 
Is Lois Fairgate also known as Jennifer Fairgate? Or The Oslo Women ?
Jennifer Fairgate
Jennifer Fergate?

On June 3, 1995, the body of a woman was found inside room 2805. She checked into the hotel with the false name of "Jennifer Fairgate", but she misspelled the last name as "Fergate" twice on hotel paperwork.

"noted in Unsolved Mysteries, the guest registered as "Jennifer Fairgate" - but twice signed her name as "Jennifer Fergate" - and registered a "Lois Fairgate" as well."
 
But do you really need to have your saving account at the same bank as your mortgage?
Look, it's possible she did have 2 accounts at Colonial, but they never specifically said so o_O
At some point, I actually thought maybe RB made her transfer her savings from Colonial to Commonwealth just so he could withdraw it.
I guess the point is there was definitely more money that's unaccounted for and I personally am going to go with Sally's story. But feel free to keep on your path, I won't argue anymore, hehheee. It has been an enlightening discussion nonetheless :)
Oh no don't get me wrong, I am not challenging Sally's story either (just putting the pieces together in a different way) and I am not arguing with you, because I absolutely don't know any more than the rest of the WS sleuths do. It's all supposition! I am just clarifying (for myself as much as anything) how I arrived at my conclusions, and as I said I always appreciate seeing how others do too, especially when it challenges what I previously thought.
 
Oh no don't get me wrong, I am not challenging Sally's story either (just putting the pieces together in a different way) and I am not arguing with you, because I absolutely don't know any more than the rest of the WS sleuths do. It's all supposition! I am just clarifying (for myself as much as anything) how I arrived at my conclusions, and as I said I always appreciate seeing how others do too, especially when it challenges what I previously thought.
'Argue' was a very poor choice of words on my part. I very much enjoy your robust talking through issues and possibilities :) It's helpful to figure out what works and what we can eliminate.
 
Regarding the exchange between @Peralta and @Roseberry on Marion's name change, I have a few thoughts. The name change is a very important clue, imo. Changing one's name is not done lightly. It takes real effort, and is done seriously. Some reasons why a woman might change her name:

1. HAPPINESS - looking forward to something -- like marriage or a business venture

2. HOPE - a new start

3. FEAR - running away; trying to escape. ie falling for a threat she'd been made to believe by Wonka like in other scams we've heard where con man claims to be in CIA etc.

4. FEAR - coercion

6. CRIMINAL - for nefarious deeds

7. NAIVETE - doing it just because someone asks you to.

8. SILLINESS - for a lark; because you can

Based on the tone of her postcards I feel like we can rule some of these out. (Unless Marion was under duress (captivity?) in UK and forced to write the cards??)
 
The whole bank situation is rather confusing. I'm gonna try breaking it down to see where it lands...

Withdrawals means cash was physically removed from account.
Electronic transfer means money was moved from one account to 'another account'.
Another account means:
  • a different account of same person with the same bank or a different bank
  • someone else's personal account
  • a business account, for the purpose of paying a bill or purchase
  • a different financial institution, so another person can go and collect it, aka wire transfer.
Daily $5k Byron withdrawals, Aug-Sept 1997
  • Assumed to be cash withdrawals.
  • Sally heard about this on 21 Oct 1997, from Commonwealth telebanking call centre.
  • The cash could have been taken home, immediately deposited into another account, or stored in a security envelope.
$80k from Ashmore, 15 Oct 1997
  • Unclear if it was withdrawn or transferred.
  • In April 1998 GC Byron Police said, ''$80k was electronically transferred to another account, possibly overseas, to start a new life with her partner.''
  • In March 1999, Salvation Army said they spoke to police, who spoke to bank who said, ''Marion withdrew $80k (the balance of her account) and spoke of starting a new life’'.
  • Colonial say they never received a call from police making enquiries about Marion.
14 Oct 1997
FDdH pays $13 from joint account to purchase / put something into a safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Bank Ballina, which only he can access. The most commonly used size is an A3 envelope.

14 or 15 Oct 1997
In Feb 2022 we learned that in brief of evidence, there’s a Commonwealth document showing an ‘automatic funds transfer’.

27 Oct 1997
RB cancels safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Ballina.

@Binniem thank you for your very useful explanations! Basically, at the time, if people wanted to transfer money between their accounts, they'd usually withdraw the cash, walk over to their other bank and make a cash deposit there. That's because transferring money between other banks needed to be done 'in branch' for a fee.

So it is possible that the 'document' is a record of that transaction.

Please let me know if I got anything wrong :)
An automatic funds transfer would have been electronic. It would have been initiated from the senders bank to the receiving bank. It could be a once off transfer, which would have been organised in branch, or a regular one , like a weekly payment as an example.
For a big amount, most people would probably go the automatic route, just for a safety perspective, and it would very unlikely without prior arrangements that the branch had that much cash.
@gymronic mentions that the transfer was always an international transfer even between local banks, that is correct as it used the same system.
 
Re the commonwealth automatic transfer document:
Maybe it’s not transfer from any MB accounts but rather transfer to/from an RB account (and the transfer doc is just included among other bank docs the brief of evidence)? For example, if RB took the money Marion emptied on the 15th, deposited it into a commonwealth account (for their married life) and then unbeknownst to Marion, auto transfers that money to his FdH account (hence the transfer document). This would somewhat hide the source of the money & also buy some time for MB to notice her money is inaccessible to her.
 
Yes intriguing case! I wonder where RB was on May 31, 1995 when Jennifer Fairgate was found dead? Would anyone know?
The Le Courrier ad was placed in December '94. RB says no-one answered the ad ..... interestingly he goes overseas in late February '95, not sure for how long, and he apparently took a number of trips to Europe in '95.
 
The Le Courrier ad was placed in December '94. RB says no-one answered the ad ..... interestingly he goes overseas in late February '95, not sure for how long, and he apparently took a number of trips to Europe in '95.
Thanks for that info. Wow, do you think JF possibly answered his ad in the Le Courrier ?
 
Thanks for that info. Wow, do you think JF possibly answered his ad in the Le Courrier ?
I need to read up about JF, sounds fascinating. Anything's possible about the ad. He had four trips to Europe in 1995, so something was going on IMO. There could also have been ads placed in European papers along with the Australian ones, might have been juggling a few responses? Speculation of course.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
81
Guests online
397
Total visitors
478

Forum statistics

Threads
625,633
Messages
18,507,337
Members
240,827
Latest member
shaymac4413
Back
Top