Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

  • #201
@meanmaryjean @BeginnerSleuther

more of our medical professionals.

@TootsieFootsie , @Marg from Oz who I think are Australian?

jmho ymmv lrr

I am a tad late to the discussion here but wanted to add my two-sense based on medical experience.

A few things that come to mind off the bat for a cause of death without visible injury include smothering or suffocation, potentially even manual strangulation, overdose, poisoning, and environmental exposure.

I believe that carbon dioxide poisoning would not be high up on the list of possibilities in this case given that they lived in an apartment building yet were the only ones seemingly affected.

I have only read the first page of the thread which details initial findings as well as further information about recent welfare checks in the months prior to the discovery. My head seems to be leaning towards some type of suicide pact given they were each found in bed in their separate rooms, with zero visible injuries, and zero signs of forced entry.

A month of decomposition can mask a number of things such as "injuries" that would otherwise be visible such as ligature marks.

There is certainly more to this story and I will read on!
 
  • #202
@meanmaryjean @BeginnerSleuther

more of our medical professionals.

@TootsieFootsie , @Marg from Oz who I think are Australian?

jmho ymmv lrr
I am a tad late to the discussion here but wanted to add my two-sense based on medical experience.

A few things that come to mind off the bat for a cause of death without visible injury include smothering or suffocation, potentially even manual strangulation, overdose, poisoning, and environmental exposure.

I believe that carbon dioxide poisoning would not be high up on the list of possibilities in this case given that they lived in an apartment building yet were the only ones seemingly affected.

I have only read the first page of the thread which details initial findings as well as further information about recent welfare checks in the months prior to the discovery. My head seems to be leaning towards some type of suicide pact given they were each found in bed in their separate rooms, with zero visible injuries, and zero signs of forced entry.

A month of decomposition can mask a number of things such as "injuries" that would otherwise be visible such as ligature marks.
 
  • #203
I am a tad late to the discussion here but wanted to add my two-sense based on medical experience.

A few things that come to mind off the bat for a cause of death without visible injury include smothering or suffocation, potentially even manual strangulation, overdose, poisoning, and environmental exposure.

I believe that carbon dioxide poisoning would not be high up on the list of possibilities in this case given that they lived in an apartment building yet were the only ones seemingly affected.

I have only read the first page of the thread which details initial findings as well as further information about recent welfare checks in the months prior to the discovery. My head seems to be leaning towards some type of suicide pact given they were each found in bed in their separate rooms, with zero visible injuries, and zero signs of forced entry.

A month of decomposition can mask a number of things such as "injuries" that would otherwise be visible such as ligature marks.

There is certainly more to this story and I will read on!

carbon monoxide would only affect their apartment, not others, if they had a faulty gas appliance and the windows were closed. Was it cold weather? A faulty boiler can kill just like this.

Also if they were subject to murder they could have been gassed somehow (seems a bit unlikely)
 
  • #204
This article may give insight 'We will be victims of an honour killing,' say Saudi sisters at risk of deportation from Turkey

(note I do NOT know if these are the same women, it is just a similar predicament)

WOW. The insight provided in this article is startling. It makes it a lot clearer as to why the girls would be so fearful, especially of seeing authority figures (police officers) coming and knocking on their doors. If their precise location were to become known by male family members, they would almost certainly be killed. Their seeking of asylum is viewed as the ultimate betrayal within the country they fled from.
 
  • #205
I guess the workers for refugee service.
They might have also helped them to organise legal aid.

MOO
Is there a source for this? This is what I am wondering.
 
  • #206
I stand corrected, I just read that myself.

I wonder how they managed to leave Saudi with a male family member's authority?

Perhaps they said it was some sort of study trip?

I also wonder if there was a 2nd or 3rd country they went to before they got to Australia?
They sook out Asylum. So they definitely didn't have permission. This explains a lot in terms of the fear, them seeming to have been hiding, etc.
 
  • #207
carbon monoxide would only affect their apartment, not others, if they had a faulty gas appliance and the windows were closed. Was it cold weather? A faulty boiler can kill just like this.

Also if they were subject to murder they could have been gassed somehow (seems a bit unlikely)
But aren't these gas appliances regularly checked by professionals?
This is an apartment building, the flats are rented.
The landlord lives there and is clearly responsible for maintenance.

Can they rent an apartment with a broken gas appliance?
 
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  • #208
They sook out Asylum. So they definitely didn't have permission. This explains a lot in terms of the fear, them seeming to have been hiding, etc.

If mum visited them in Fairfield, they weren't hiding at that time. (The first two years.) imo

I think it could be that they came to Australia with permission to study. But were expected to return home.
Perhaps that is when they registered for asylum. When they decided that they didn't want to return home (if that is what they decided when they renounced Islam).
 
  • #209
Thanks for posting that Guardian article, Dotr: "Saudi sisters found dead in Sydney had active claims for asylum with Department of Home Affairs"
Part 1 of 2
If this article is correct (and others), then [please correct]:
- the Alsehli sisters came to Australia as students in 2017;
- they applied for asylum at some stage, but when and the actual reason they gave for asylum has not been released;
- they were quiet, kept to themselves and did not have a lot of friends;
- they do not appear to have been a part of any Saudi dissident networks.
- they had almost no social media profile, online presence or photographs in the public domain. [So where did the photos the police released come from?]
- they studied at TAFE (a bit like a community college) but theri course of study does not appear to have been revealed;
- they had jobs (so presumptuously their workmates would have perceptions of them; I expect the Press is tracking down former workmates as I type)
- their mother visited, but did not like Australia. [No detail on the date of her visit or whether she adopted Western dress when in Australia. Additionally, until August 2019 Saudi women were not permitted to travel alone unless they have a male relative who acts as a chaperone or guardian, known as 'mahram' in transliterated Arabic: "Until August 2019, women in Saudi Arabia were universally treated as legal minors, requiring a male relative’s permission for a range of critical decisions, such as working, obtaining family records, and applying for a passport. Women who traveled abroad were required to be accompanied by a male relative, including if they were attending school. Women also could not serve as legal guardians of their own children." The article, Ending Male Guardianship In Saudi Arabia from which that quote is taken is worth reading in its entirety. Even now, in 2022, women under 45 years of age do need a mahram to enter Saudi Arabia to undertake Haj.]
- they may have had access to money, apart from their jobs, given the elder sister drove a relatively recent BMW.
- people in one apartment block said that they appeared to live in fear: "Dead Saudi sisters were ‘like two little sparrows ... scared of something’". Their low key life may well support this conjecture.
- various comments of people who interacted with the Alsehli sisters and the photos released show young women who are very Western and not dressing so as to proclaim that they are Muslim. No one has mentioned their wearing a hijab.
 
  • #210
But aren't these gas appliances regularly checked by professionals?
This is an apartment building, the flats are rented.
The landlord lives there and is clearly responsible for maintenance.

Can they rent an apartment with a broken gas appliance?

Yes indeed. Many modern places have no gas appliances, I live in the UK where such things are checked annually, but saying that it’s the first thing that came to my mind as it does happen.
 
  • #211
Hmmm, I can't make the timing work:

Australian sisters: arrived in 2017..
Hong Kong sisters: arrived in Sept. 2018, on their way to Australia. Still in HK in Feb. 2019.

I think these are different sisters.

JMO

Either this, or if they were given asylum, there was a story accompanying it.
 
  • #212
rbbm.
July 30 2022
''In the past five years, about 75 Saudi women have been granted a permanent protection visa. Sophie McNeill, a former ABC journalist who investigated the experience of women fleeing Saudi and now works for Human Rights Watch, said Saudi refugee women had difficult lives in Australia''

They leave their homeland because of the gendered abuse and control, but can struggle when they arrive due to a lack of support.

“It’s particularly isolating and lonely and difficult [when they get to Australia],” she said. “They typically try to avoid the Saudi community. They have each other. There is an informal network of support. But everyone is very scared and doesn’t know who to trust.''

“There are cases of people whose families are trying to convince them to come back, trying to blackmail them.”


Saudi Arabia has undergone significant social change since the Alsehli sisters left in 2017. The Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman wants - as a profile by The Atlantic put it earlier this year - to turn “one of the world’s weirdest countries into a place that could plausibly be called normal.”

''Women can now drive, and eat in restaurants with men. The country has banned under-18 marriage for both sexes, and the law now requires women to be told if their husband has divorced them. Women can also apply for a passport and travel overseas without permission from a male guardian.''
 
  • #213
DBM
 
  • #214
Thanks for posting that Guardian article, Dotr: "Saudi sisters found dead in Sydney had active claims for asylum with Department of Home Affairs"
Part 1 of 2
If this article is correct (and others), then [please correct]:
- the Alsehli sisters came to Australia as students in 2017;
- they applied for asylum at some stage, but when and the actual reason they gave for asylum has not been released;
- they were quiet, kept to themselves and did not have a lot of friends;
- they do not appear to have been a part of any Saudi dissident networks.
- they had almost no social media profile, online presence or photographs in the public domain. [So where did the photos the police released come from?]
- they studied at TAFE (a bit like a community college) but theri course of study does not appear to have been revealed;
- they had jobs (so presumptuously their workmates would have perceptions of them; I expect the Press is tracking down former workmates as I type)
- their mother visited, but did not like Australia. [No detail on the date of her visit or whether she adopted Western dress when in Australia. Additionally, until August 2019 Saudi women were not permitted to travel alone unless they have a male relative who acts as a chaperone or guardian, known as 'mahram' in transliterated Arabic: "Until August 2019, women in Saudi Arabia were universally treated as legal minors, requiring a male relative’s permission for a range of critical decisions, such as working, obtaining family records, and applying for a passport. Women who traveled abroad were required to be accompanied by a male relative, including if they were attending school. Women also could not serve as legal guardians of their own children." The article, Ending Male Guardianship In Saudi Arabia from which that quote is taken is worth reading in its entirety. Even now, in 2022, women under 45 years of age do need a mahram to enter Saudi Arabia to undertake Haj.]
- they may have had access to money, apart from their jobs, given the elder sister drove a relatively recent BMW.
- people in one apartment block said that they appeared to live in fear: "Dead Saudi sisters were ‘like two little sparrows ... scared of something’". Their low key life may well support this conjecture.
- various comments of people who interacted with the Alsehli sisters and the photos released show young women who are very Western and not dressing so as to proclaim that they are Muslim. No one has mentioned their wearing a hijab.
BBM
so, if mom did in fact visit, she would have had to have male guardian or escort ???
so someone else who would know where they were living !!
 
  • #215
I am having deja vu. Wasn’t there another very similar case where two sisters had fled their country and religion and were found deceased in separate beds? Turned out to be self starvation and one died significantly earlier than the other. Am I imagining this? I think is was Los Angeles, California.
 
  • #216
Part 2 of 2
Now for the conjecture and speculation.
Cause of death: to take a person's life and no leave some signs (presuming there is a body left) is quite difficult, especially these days with modern forensic techniques. Police have not released a cause of death and are giving the impression they do not really know. The bodies had suffered to degree of decomposition - how much has not been revealed; and decomposition can mask some poisons, particularly the more exotic ones. Bodies can preserve signs of injection for some time, depending on the conditions in which the body is kept. I've read of corpses revealing injection marks years after burial because the body was embalmed. Similarly, signs of throttling or suffocation can persist for weeks or months, and in the case of strangulation, the fracture of the hyoid bone can suggest strangulation. See: "Fracture of the hyoid bone in strangulation: comparison of fractured and unfractured hyoids from victims of strangulation".
However, two people being found dead and having died at more or less the same time, is highly unusual, particularly, given both the deceased in this case were young. It is a reasonable conclusion that the cause of death was not natural, but involved some external cause.
Moreover, gaining control of two people to ensure compliance, and not leaving any signs of having restrained them, is also difficult. Threats can work, of course.
The Alsehli sisters were found in early June and are believed to have died a month before, in the first few days of May. Cell phone usage would provide an indication, as would internet usage and usage of a PC or lap top. This leads to another observation: if they were employed, why did their workmates or employer not raise the alarm? It took the non-payment of rent to bring police to the unit.
Early May is early autumn. Looking at the weather for May, the maximum was about 79F (26.1C) at the beginning of the month and trending down to about 65F (18.3C) by the end. Overnight, the peak was about 66F (18.8C) on the 13th and trending down to about 50F (10C) by the end of the month.
Given the temperature in the first week of May, many folks would have their heater on. We do not know if the heater was turned on in the unit when the police entered.
There has been no detail given as to the mode of heating in the unit where the Alsehli sisters were found or whether windows were open, permitting fresh air to enter. So we do not know if carbon monoxide could have killed the sisters in their sleep. [Of course, someone may have introduced that into the unit, but how?] Unflued gas heaters are dangerous and have killed people in Australia in very recent times.
We will need to wait for the Coroner's inquest and hopefully a cause of death will be given there.
Motivation: An honour killing? Although this remains a possibility, I tend to think it was on the balance of probably not an honour killing. The police have said the family are not suspects, though not only the immediate family would perform such a deed. Uncles and aunts get in on the act. However, honour killings are usually very public, in the sense they involve usually quite gruesome methods (stabbing, mutilation, strangulation, burning, dismemberment) and not what appears to have occurred here. The Alsehli sisters were found dead in (we presume their respective) bed, with no obvious signs of trauma on their bodies. the point of an honour killing is to "reclaim" the honour that has been lost or defiled. Typically, the loss is within one's own community. And that can only be done publicly. It is a type of public denunciation as well as a deterrent.
The Alsehli sisters lived very quiet and almost anonymous lives. They were not, according to the Guardian article, cited above, not part of any Saudi dissident group. Their interaction with the Saudi community in Australia is not known, but, given the elder sister, Asra had a relationship with a man, described as an "Iraqi with a beard", it seems they had some interaction with the middle eastern community in Sydney.
The Alsehli's mother had visited them, but it is not clear whether this was when they lived at a different address or at the address where they died. Their behaviour suggests that they may have lived in fear, as some news reports suggest. Equally, it is not uncommon for people who flee Saudi Arabia and seek asylum in the west to live quietly and to not become activists. They seek to lessen the shame their family may feel and not provoke them. Additionally, the Alsehli sisters travelled to Australia in 2017, when just 18 and 19 respectively, when Saudi females typically required a mahram or guardian. Saudi females have travel to the West for study for over a decade. This may suggest a more liberal and progressive family who were willing to let their daughters live in a Western country, without close supervision. It seems the Alsehli's were not trying to cause dishonour to their family.
For all these reasons, I think it unlikely an honour killing perpetrated or authored by the family or tribe. On the information available, it seems to me the deaths of the Alsehli sisters was likely misadventure, where they came into contact with some substance that led to their incapacitation and death at the same time. Suicide is a possibility but no note has been mentioned nor the presence of the usual methods (ligatures, drugs). Less likely is human involvement but it is possible, though to produce such a scene, leaving few clues, suggests either luck. Or good planning and experience. And that opens quite awful possibilities.
The inquest will be very interesting. This is a tragedy, which ever way you look at it and very sad indeed. The Alsehli sisters just seem like to young people, with a great life ahead and just trying to lead their best lives.
Thanks for reading.
 
  • #217
BBM
so, if mom did in fact visit, she would have had to have male guardian or escort ???
so someone else who would know where they were living !!
It depends when - pre august 2019 or after; and also the "progressiveness" of the family.
 
  • #218
I am having deja vu. Wasn’t there another very similar case where two sisters had fled their country and religion and were found deceased in separate beds? Turned out to be self starvation and one died significantly earlier than the other. Am I imagining this? I think is was Los Angeles, California.
The police have not mentioned malnutrition in the case of the Alsehli sisters; or anything about the unit, such as the contents of their fridge or how much money they had.
 
  • #219
It sounds as though mum visited them when they lived in Fairfield, which was during their first two years in Australia. As it is their previous landlord who divulged this info.

Fairfield has a large Middle Eastern demographic - among other cultures - with only 3.4% of residents being 'Australian'.

Then they moved to Canterbury, which has no Middle Eastern demographic at all. But still has a prominent amount of residents from other cultures. Possibly this is when they denounced Islam? After mum had visited and left early because she didn't like Australia.

Fairfield
Canterbury
Do we know they rejected Islam? I've met Muslims who show absolutely not visible signs of being Muslim.
But the demographic of the two suburbs is IMHO, a really important observation. The landlord of the first apartment has not said why they moved.
 
  • #220
This is just so sad, isn't it? Two young women (just girls back than) have the courage and the wits to flee their oppressive country, seek a new life on the other side of the world, and try to create a new free life in Australia. And for what? They weren't happy, and they still weren't free. They probably would have been no worse off if they had stayed in SA.
This ^^^
 

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