Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

  • #301
As for working in construction in traffic control, this is a very common job for young women to take when travelling in Australia from overseas. The hours are flexible, which would be very handy if studying, and very little English is required to perform the job. It would likely be a casual job so they are potentially employed as contractors, hence the ABN.
Do we know if they registered ABNs' before or after they started working at the construction company? I started to wonder if maybe they weren't involved in some kind of scam or illegal activity which could have led to the outcome.

If their food had been poisoned or tampered with wouldn't investigators have been able to determine this? Testing the containers, garbage, tracing their last orders etc?

This is such a bizarre story.
 
  • #302
Do we know if they registered ABNs' before or after they started working at the construction company? I started to wonder if maybe they weren't involved in some kind of scam or illegal activity which could have led to the outcome.

If their food had been poisoned or tampered with wouldn't investigators have been able to determine this? Testing the containers, garbage, tracing their last orders etc?

This is such a bizarre story.
ABNs were registered in Oct 2018, which I assume is pre-construction company..?

My Saudi friend, who fled 5 years ago, said that for a long while after arriving, she felt very afraid of being tracked down by her family / Saudi govt. She hasn’t spoken to her family since and has changed her name. The consequences for leaving or attempting to leave are severe. So having spoken to her about this, she said there was no doubt in her mind what happened to them.

I question the claim I’ve read in various news sources that their mother visited them in their apartment. That doesn’t ring true to me. The refugee service protects refugees’ identities, certainly from the Saudi Government, before gaining citizenship. Either the sisters made a gross error in judgment, or perhaps it wasn’t their mother? JMO
 
  • #303
I question the claim I’ve read in various news sources that their mother visited them in their apartment.
Probably just a false person reported to protect the identity and role of the person who actually visited them.
 
  • #304
Modern apartments tend to have all the utilities isolated for health and safety reasons, to prevent the spread of fire or fumes or gases. Older buildings don't and can be 'pre-regulation'. Legionnaire's disease can spread rapidly around large office blocks and institutional buildings via the air ducts.

If these young women had a gas boiler or gas heating and it was cold weather (as has been confirmed) then despite their complex history, my biggest suspicion is carbon monoxide poisoning as it's so common and kills people exactly in this manner - at night asleep in bed :( A death from carbon monoxide can be detected at post mortem however, in this situation, who knows due to the time gone by. Also it can be detected from examining and checking the equipment for leaks - or rather, improper fumes venting, but a landlord would want to cover that up really quickly if it happened.

I started Googling how long can one detect carbon monoxide poisoning postmortem and didn't find much, yet.

But - I still remember that odd piece about the plumber being surprised. And I ran into this article:

Here Lethal carbon monoxide toxicity in a concrete shower unit - PubMed

The following article has little to do with CO poisoning, it is about Covid-19 elevating levels of methemoglobin and carboxyhemoglobin, but here is an interesting fact: people with glucose-6pg deficiency might be more sensitive to carboxehemoglobin.

If you remember, I posted the levels of consanguinity in SA and some illnesses resulting from it. One was g6PG deficiency and how it might affect people when on a different diet. Apparently, they are more sensitive to CO.

 
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  • #305
When I look at the temperatures (for Yemen, as an example) they appear to have very similar temperatures to Australia.
Very hot summers, mild winters (compared to other places). The temperature ranges seem very similar to ours.

Which, of course, doesn't mean that they were not using an alternate heat source. Though I can't imagine what that heat source would be. As the police should be able to determine if their apartment stank of gas - because if no-one had been into the apartment to shut off the alternate heat source surely it would still be pumping out its heat (and leaky gas) when the girls were found.

carbon monoxide doesn’t smell - it’s called ‘the silent killer’

if there were improper equipment / venting then it would need scrutinising by a qualified engineer

Yes agree, if there was some alternate heater it would be obvious to see it even if it had run out of gas by then
 
  • #306
carbon monoxide doesn’t smell - it’s called ‘the silent killer’

if there were improper equipment / venting then it would need scrutinising by a qualified engineer

Yes agree, if there was some alternate heater it would be obvious to see it even if it had run out of gas by then

The problem is, sadly, body decomposition produces so many gases that nothing can be verified post mortem. It is sad that the owner did not care to even check what was wrong, nor even deliver eviction notices by hand. I would be concerned about that unit unless full inspection is performed. And definitely the police should talk to the plumber who said something was odd. If another case in AU caused CO poisoning from the shower with concrete-embedded heater, who knows?
 
  • #307
Only my opinion, but it seems to me that the chronology as known so far is something like:
- 2017: We can infer that both sisters applied for and were granted visas to enter Australia to study. This means they had exit visas from Saudi Arabia, permission to travel from a male guardian and sufficient funds and acceptance into a course of study from a registered educational provider to convince the Australian authorities to grant them a visa. The type of visa they were given and the period of its validity has not been disclosed.
Although they were reported to have been studying at TAFE, Fairfield campus, over the past few years - a little like a US community college - I have not seen any reporting providing details the educational course they intended to pursue when they applied for a visa in 2017. It may be the TAFE course, but needs to be confirmed.
- 2017: The sisters travel from Saudi Arabia to Australia, via Hong Kong. After arrival, the sisters make contact with a refugee centre. The date when they made contact is not known publicly. Media state the origin of their journey was Saudi Arabia (as given here), but many women who flee Saudi Arabia do so from a third country often during a family holiday. The sisters itinerary remains to be confirmed.
- 2017 - ??: the sisters live at a property in Fairfield before they moved to their unit in Canterbury where they died. No public information on when or why the sisters moved from their initial place of residence (Fairfield) to the unit when their bodied were discovered (Canterbury). Where they stayed before taking up residence in the Fairfield property has not been revealed.
- 2017 - ??: The landlord of the sisters' Fairfield property said the sisters had been attending TAFE and that their mother had visited previously and that she had not liked Australia, leaving after only a brief stay. The landlord had never heard the sisters discuss their father.
- 2018?? - ??: The older sister, Asra, had a boyfriend when the sisters were living in Fairfield, with the landlord saying he was “Iraqi” and had a beard. How she met this man is not known publicly.
- 2018, October, 11: Amaal applied for and was granted an Australian Business Number (ABN). The nature of her business is not provided in the public record. On this same say Asra Alsehli applied for an ABN but the nature of her business is not provided in the public record.
- 2018?? - ??: At some point both sisters obtained employment, working in traffic control for a construction company. It is not clear they how long they worked at this company or on what basis: permanent, part time, casual and so on.
- 2019: January: Asra applied for an apprehended violence order against a man (identity not given), although that application was withdrawn.
- 2022, March (mid): The sisters' building’s manager - at their Canterbury home, where their bodies were discovered - noting food in shared spaces asked police to do a welfare check. Police attended and spoke to the women who “appeared fine”. Detail of the extent and nature of the police interaction or if there was bodycam footage (as they may well be), has not been disclosed publicly. The Daily Mail says the police did two welfare checks in 2022, prior to the discovery of the sisters' bodies and another in an earlier year, but no date was given. In one of the checks, according to the Daily Mail, the pair were described as 'timid' and refused to let anyone enter the apartment. They eventually allowed officers to enter, but stayed huddled together in the far corner of the unit.
- 2022, April, 13 [approx]: Sheriff's officers went to the Canterbury apartment to serve the women with an eviction notice. The reason for eviction has not been provided. It may be non-payment of rent.
- 2022, early May: the sisters die in bed. No one raises an alarm; no one misses them. This suggests a disconnection from the Sydney community, including TAFE and their workplace as well as estrangement from their family in Saudi Arabia.
- 2022, May, 13: The owner of their Canterbury unit filed a civil case against Asra. The nature of the case has not been given, but it may be non-payment of rent.
- 2022, June 7: Rent had not been paid and mail was building up. Building supervisors called police to conduct a welfare check. The Amaal and Asra Alsehli's bodies were discovered, some reports say, in bed, while other reports say in bedrooms. It is not clear if they are in separate beds or separate bedrooms - though news.com says separate bedrooms. Nor has information been released stating how they were dressed. Police did say there was no/no sign of a forced entry or a struggle. Additionally, police said there were no/no signs of violence on the bodies. Police establish Strike Force Woolbird to investigate the circumstances surrounding the women’s deaths.
A a general comment, the police say publicly they have no idea the cause of the Alsehli sisters' deaths and are awaiting the pathology report. However, and this is just conjecture, if their visa was about to expire and they believed their application for asylum had been rejected, and the feared returning to Saudi Arabia, then they may have taken their own lives. This has happened before, in the US in 2018, reported 2019: "Two Saudi Sisters Found Dead in Hudson River Killed Themselves: Medical Examiner". However, this needs to be confirmed. No suicide note has been mentioned.

Great summary, however, there is very little known about the lives of the girls till 2019 when they took an AVO.

Here is another time line


Murder’ Mystery Timeline​

2017: Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amal Abdullah Alsehli, 23, are believed to have fled Saudi Arabia.

2019: Asara took out an AVO against one man, but it was later dismissed.

2020: They often visit a service station around their flat, described by locals as ‘friendly’.


2022: Police conduct two welfare checks early in the year.

In a check, the couple was described as ‘timid’ and refused to let anyone into the apartment.

They eventually allow the officers in, but huddle together in a far corner of the unit.

May, 2022: The owner of their Canterbury unit files a civil suit against Asara on May 13.


The move came four weeks after sheriff’s officials went to the apartment to serve the women with an eviction notice.

June 7, 2022: Officers conducting a welfare check make a gruesome discovery.
 
  • #308
Re-posting. I wish we knew how it looked like.

"A plumber who visited the unit also raised concerns. “[He] said, ‘there’s something mysterious happening there’,” the worker said"

I wish we knew what he meant.

 
  • #309
TBH the most toxic fumes that they were likely exposed to at that apartment, were either from Canterbury Road (the main road below), or from the BP gas station nect door:rolleyes: It is a very busy road. And the apartment is on the first floor.

They might close all windows though at night in order to sleep better. From the noise mostly.

I can't see any gas outlet in the rooms or living areas from the photos. In Australia the usual gas heaters sold have to be connected to a gas outlet to work. But there are ducted air conditioning outlets, so I would guess that might be switched on, on a chilly night in May.

Never heard of anyone dying from poisoning by ducted air conditioning, but I haven't looked this up.
 
  • #310
  • #311
Capture+_2022-07-31-19-08-35(1).png

This is the ground floor view, just beneath their apartment (from Google reviews)

It is like a food court with at least two separate shops, one selling chocolate and the other one burgers. I guess the burger one is the one that smells.
 
  • #312
Could they have simply died of Covid-19? Perhaps they didn't seek medical assistance soon enough. How was the Covid situation in Australia in May?
When we caught Covid we also had the symptom of ageusia and anosmia (altered taste and smell). Perhaps this could explain their fears of the food being poisoned as it tasted off?
 
  • #313
I am balancing between "natural death/honor killing"

I don't know how many of you have read about Qandeel Baloch, a young woman in Pakistan, sort of their influencer and internet model, killed by her brother. It explains how such things are justified by the society that views murder as sin. Please pay attention, she took huge measures not to disclose her real name, and was killed when it happened, and her real name (Fouzia Azeem) got known to the public. Then her brother Waseem strangled her during Aid, the holiest day of the Ramadan. Men are unafraid to do it because they know how lenient the laws are in such situations.

The response of the Saudi sisters' family is curious to say the least; if these are "HKSisters", which we are not sure of, but highly possible, they have at least three brothers, the father and the uncle connected to Saudi Ministry of Internal Affairs. One wonders given that their family is uninvolved now. Something doesn't fit here.


 
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  • #314
I imagine it will take quite some time for all possibilities for cause of death to be investigated. I hope that we will find out what the plumber noticed before then. If I knew a plumber I would ask him for his ideas! I hope we will one day find out what really happened, at the moment there are just too many options. We can't even decide between accident, illness, suicide or murder. Whatever, it is just so tragic.
 
  • #315
<modsnip - quoted post removed>

This probably wouldn't be like "two sisters simultaneously in one family". Indeed, while the percentage of vaccination-induced complications is very small, so many people got them, that the list seems large; in fact, it is mere statistics in action. But, two sisters, dying approximately at the same time, both from Covid shot - highly, highly inlikely.

The fact that it was approximately at the same time would indicate, to me:

- some external random factor like CO
- external factor like homicide by poisoning or something not leaving traces
- suicide; I think that in suicide, when one person might need more courage, the sisters being in the same room would be expected, but we don't know that much about them. There is also a possibility of one sister dying and another one suiciding as the result of it, but I'd expect a note in this case.
 
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  • #316
  • #317
The move came four weeks after sheriff’s officials went to the apartment to serve the women with an eviction notice.
Asylum seekers receiving an eviction notice.
Something does not add up here.

<modsnip - quoted post removed>
 
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  • #318
Excellent summary!

RBBM I find it a bit odd that both sisters applied for ABNs' and then both started working at a construction company in traffic control. Seems a strange choice for 2 young sisters trying to make a new life for themselves. JMO.

What about the boyfriend? Here is a story of a woman whom it's assumed was abducted after making a new life for herself: CANADA - Canada - Elnaz Hajtamiri, 37, Abducted following home invasion, Wasaga Beach, Ontario, 12 Jan 2022

Of note: Elnaz is also Iranian and the ex bf is looking suspicious. He is also bearded FWIW, just saying it's an odd coincidence.

I have actually been in Australia on a student visa, I also had an ABN.

On a student visa you are limited to the number of hours your are supposed to work during term time. Most of us scraped by in hospitality.
Alternatively, traffic control paid very well - although you had to do a particular course in order to be able to do it, which was around $1000. This outlay was too much for me. But, When you can only work 20 hours per week getting the highest paid job possible is sensible and I saw lots of women doing it.
 
  • #319
But if the plumber thought something was amiss, he surely would check the appliances, no?

I understood that sisters' behaviour was strange according to him, not something in the apartament.
 
  • #320
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