Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

[SleepyJoe]

Imo, if they truly had solid evidence both fosterers LIED about something relevant that morning, and LE truly had proof that they both physically assaulted their foster child, and stalked and threatened her, they would both have been arrested already.

Your assumption is not correct. Do you mean "arrested and taken into custody"? Because here in Australia a person is only immediately taken into mandatory custody when charged for certain offences (which vary by state). For all cases when a person is charged with a criminal offence, it means that the case must then be heard in front of a magistrate who will determine guilt or not, and if the perpetrator is found guilty then there will be a later hearing to determine sentencing. Only after that will the penalty be enforced. So, the fact that the FCs are still free in the community is due to the fact their cases haven't been heard in front of a magistrate (the court system is very slow due to the huge case numbers that go before them), and is not at all to do with what evidence NSW Police have against them or not. They may have damning and convincing evidence but we won't know until the cases are heard in court. For certain offences, after being charged, an alleged perpetrator will only be released into the community awaiting trial after posting a sum of money as surety that they will not abscond ie bail. It is my understanding that the FCs have each posted bail for the common assault charges.

"The couple, aged 56 and 54, remain on bail and will return to court next month."

William’s foster-parents in court next month as search enters second week

Strike Force Rosann officers charged the couple, who the Herald is prohibited from identifying, with common assault last week.

www.smh.com.au

"His foster mother remains on bail and is expected to face Hornsby Local Court on April 29."

William Tyrrell's foster mother charged with stalking, intimidation

NSW Police lay new charges against William Tyrrell's foster mother who is already before the courts for the alleged assault of a child.

www.abc.net.au

 

[LolaAngelina]

@LolaAngelina can you please clarify this statement? Where in CO's book does it state this? Can you please supply the chapter and page number please?? I don't recall reading this...
TIA

I haven’t read her book. I recall someone posting on social media an excerpt which had an 8.40 leaving time. I don’t believe that’s correct at all, hence why l didn’t provide a link and was pointing out the only time l had seen it theorised.

 

[drsleuth]

BBM
Thanks for this info .... are you able to recall if that time of 08:55am was the corrected time from the Tennis Club CCTV or the time the MFC vehicle was captured???? Or if that time was from another source?

4 days later .... this is very different to published version that this occurred on the Sunday afternoon the 14th and also the FFC's recall in subsequent interviews, that it was the day that William went missing ....
As 4 days later is the Tuesday .....

TIA

I think people need to understand, that not every little detail or time is explained. We don't need to know every little detail in the courts eyes, as they know & some things just come up in other questions etc

So no she did not say where the time came from . It was a reply to Swifts x examination.

 

[JBowie]

On the topic of mental health impairment as a defence:

The defence of mental illness has been around for a long time.

Historically, the 1843 case of M’Naghten established that ‘a defect of reason, from disease of the mind’, to the extent where one does not know what they are doing or does not know what is wrong, maybe a full defence to even the offence of murder.

Fast-forward today, and on 27 March 2021, the law relating to the ‘mental illness defence’ is contained in the [NSW] Mental Health and Cognitive Impairment Forensic Provisions Act 2020.

The Act makes clear that the defence of mental illness – now known as the defence of mental health impairment or cognitive impairment – is a complete defence to criminal charges, which means a person must be found not guilty if the defence is established.

Section 28: Legal Defence of Mental Health Impairment or Cognitive Impairment | Sydney Criminal Lawyers

Going to court while battling a mental health issue? Our lawyers have a proven track record of using legal defences to have cases dismissed.

www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au

 

[LIBPOP]

Do we know, at what point, the suppression order on the foster carers may be lifted? While they are (probably) no longer foster carers, the suppression order persists due to potential recognition of a child in foster care? Just seems so many avenues of inquiry could be pursued with the general public if this wasn’t such a constraint.

 

[SouthAussie]

dragging on!

New development for William Tyrrell’s foster parents​

https://www.couriermail.com.au/breaking-news/new-development-for-william-tyrrells-foster-parents/news-story/97f3d6afd026be20948fe44a0d353cdb

In this Australian article it says that FD's lawyer, Lauren MacDougall, raised concerns that it was taking too long also.

Court set for foster parents of Tyrrell

The foster parents of William Tyrrell will face a three-day hearing next January to defend child assault and stalking charges.

amp.theaustralian.com.au

Here's a google preview of that, for those who cannot read the article:

 

[SLouTh]

Do we know, at what point, the suppression order on the foster carers may be lifted? While they are (probably) no longer foster carers, the suppression order persists due to potential recognition of a child in foster care? Just seems so many avenues of inquiry could be pursued with the general public if this wasn’t such a constraint.

From my understanding if The Coroner rules that "William is deceased" then the Suppression is automatically lifted ....but until that occurs, the suppression orders remain in place ....
IMO

 

[SleepyJoe]

I'm wondering how people who publicly supported the FFC like Jubelin, Lia Harris, Xanthe Mallett etc. are feeling now with all of the new developments? I can imagine it would be really hard for them to learn of all the new charges and they might possibly be feeling like they were manipulated. This is certainly how I have felt. Right from the beginning, after the searchers failed to find him, I believed the stranger abduction theory about William’s disappearance because of what was portrayed in the media. We now know that Insight PR firm were helping the FCs to manage the public information campaign. I feel quite angry that I may have been lied to by them all. It might sound silly, but I had 2 small children in 2014 and the case made me paranoid to let my children out of my sight. I think it also struck the fear of God into parents of small children in Kendall. If it is true that the FCs were in any way involved, they have deceptively tugged at the heart strings of millions of peoples all around the world. I hope it is not true that they were involved because if they were and this is proved, this will go down in history as one of Australia's most notoriously cases ever.

 

[JBowie]

In this Australia article it says that FD's lawyer, Lauren MacDougall, raised concerns that it was taking too long also.

Court set for foster parents of Tyrrell

The foster parents of William Tyrrell will face a three-day hearing next January to defend child assault and stalking charges.

amp.theaustralian.com.au

Here's a google preview of that, for those who cannot read the article:
View attachment 343749

Also from that article:

It is understood police were searching for William’s remains in the belief he was placed in the bush rather than buried. Officers were reportedly told any potential remains of William would be in the dam or creek only if they had naturally moved from their original location over time.

Officers spent about a month searching bushland, dams as well as two water tanks at the house where William was last seen.

Re the sentence that I have bolded, were we aware of that? Am I simply forgetting that detail among the tsunami of MSM stuff written about The Big Dig?

 

[Doesitmakesense]

Also from that article:

It is understood police were searching for William’s remains in the belief he was placed in the bush rather than buried. Officers were reportedly told any potential remains of William would be in the dam or creek only if they had naturally moved from their original location over time.

Officers spent about a month searching bushland, dams as well as two water tanks at the house where William was last seen.

Re the sentence that I have bolded, were we aware of that? Am I simply forgetting that detail among the tsunami of MSM stuff written about The Big Dig?

I'm pretty sure that was know as they were only digging to a certain depth that woukd account for 7 years of build up/movement

 

[SleepyJoe]

Also from that article:

It is understood police were searching for William’s remains in the belief he was placed in the bush rather than buried. Officers were reportedly told any potential remains of William would be in the dam or creek only if they had naturally moved from their original location over time.

Officers spent about a month searching bushland, dams as well as two water tanks at the house where William was last seen.

Re the sentence that I have bolded, were we aware of that? Am I simply forgetting that detail among the tsunami of MSM stuff written about The Big Dig?

Yes I specifically remembered that detail from MSM reports last year and discussed it earlier in this thread when someone was hypothesising whether a shovel had been disposed of or not. At the time it made me think that police must think one of the FCs (presumably the FFC via FGM’s car) had hurriedly put his body in the bush and returned to 48 Benaroon JMO.

 

[Megnut]

The assumption must be that there was no time for digging.

There was time, however, later. In the GS case in the US, the little boy's body was relocated to a distance state. At the time of the murderer's arrest, unaware of that, LE having located the initial spot, theorized wildlife must've dispersed the body.

It seems possible to me that, wherever Wm was cast off that morning, he was relocated later.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN WARNING:

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[Detective Willy]

No, we don't know for certain, but we do know that these charges for lying were brought by detectives from the Unsolved Homicide squad, including a Detective on SFR (at least for the MFC).

"Court documents seen by Daily Mail Australia reveal the foster father was charged by Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan and Detective Sergeant Trent Power from the Unsolved Homicide team, part of NSW Police State Crime Command.

Det Sgt Lonergan is a senior detective in the strike force investigating the disappearance of William Tyrrell in 2014."

William Tyrrell's foster dad lengthy court trial

William Tyrrell's foster dad to face lengthy two day-hearing for allegedly lying in a secret NSW Crime Commission hearing after 'unsolved homicide' squad charged him in January.

www.dailymail.co.uk

And as just posted above by @seekingjustice** it has been reported that the FFC lied to a NSW CC hearing held about William’s disappearance.

William Tyrrell’s foster mother charged with giving misleading evidence

The foster mother of Tyrrell, who disappeared in northern NSW in 2014, was charged with giving false or misleading evidence to state’s crime commission

www.theguardian.com

I think we can logically deduce that there is some connection between these lying charges to NSW CC (which is a very serious offence punishable by imprisonment) and William’s disappearance.

Beautifully said SleepyJoe

 

[SouthAussie]

No, we don't know for certain, but we do know that these charges for lying were brought by detectives from the Unsolved Homicide squad, including a Detective on SFR (at least for the MFC).

"Court documents seen by Daily Mail Australia reveal the foster father was charged by Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan and Detective Sergeant Trent Power from the Unsolved Homicide team, part of NSW Police State Crime Command.

Det Sgt Lonergan is a senior detective in the strike force investigating the disappearance of William Tyrrell in 2014."

William Tyrrell's foster dad lengthy court trial

William Tyrrell's foster dad to face lengthy two day-hearing for allegedly lying in a secret NSW Crime Commission hearing after 'unsolved homicide' squad charged him in January.

www.dailymail.co.uk

And as just posted above by @seekingjustice** it has been reported that the FFC lied to a NSW CC hearing held about William’s disappearance.

William Tyrrell’s foster mother charged with giving misleading evidence

The foster mother of Tyrrell, who disappeared in northern NSW in 2014, was charged with giving false or misleading evidence to state’s crime commission

www.theguardian.com

I think we can logically deduce that there is some connection between these lying charges to NSW CC (which is a very serious offence punishable by imprisonment) and William’s disappearance.

I am not sure that is a correct (or incorrect) deduction.

When comparing the FP being charged by Unsolved Homicide detectives with BS's arrest being conducted by SFR.
BS' case was about something unrelated to William's disappearance.
And appears to have been prosecuted by others, as the judge asked Jubes in Spedding's recent lawsuit trial if Jubes would have ceased the prosecution if he had control over Spedding's case.


"Arrested by Homicide Squad’s Strike Force Rosann at his home yesterday, Spedding was taken to Port Macquarie police station where he was quizzed at length."

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/bill-spedding-person-of-interest-in-disappearance-of-william-tyrrell-led-from-his-home-by-police/news-story/a52cda83f169ea75909b13c39c353d19

I think it could be that Unsolved Homicide charged the FPs (as they weren't actually arrested, I don't think) as Unsolved Homicide were interested in placing the pressure on the FP.
And now the relevant police dept (relevant to the charges) is undertaking the prosecution (along with the prosecutor, of course). Same as what happened with BS.

Maybe we will find out when the Crime Commission "alleged lying" charges go to court - if it is not a secret Crime Commission matter.

Just going by what we have seen before in this case.

 

[Couldbe]

As per below, if FFC’s Section 14 Application is successful (at Hearing on June 30) would that mean she could be ordered to undergo mental health treatment in readiness for the charges against both foster parents which were set down for a three-day hearing to start on January 16?

William Tyrrell's foster parents face 2023 hearing

“The charges were mentioned in Parramatta Local Court on Friday, when magistrate Peter Feather listed the mother’s section 14 application for hearing on June 30.

The mental health application seeks to have criminal charges dismissed without a conviction or finding of guilt.”

 

[Doesitmakesense]

As per below, if FFC’s Section 14 Application is successful (at Hearing on June 30) would that mean she could be ordered to undergo mental health treatment in readiness for the charges against both foster parents which were set down for a three-day hearing to start on January 16?

William Tyrrell's foster parents face 2023 hearing

“The charges were mentioned in Parramatta Local Court on Friday, when magistrate Peter Feather listed the mother’s section 14 application for hearing on June 30.

The mental health application seeks to have criminal charges dismissed without a conviction or finding of guilt.”

With the mental health act application, Does this only apply to the stalking and intimidation charges? Or does it cover the lying to the crime commission ones to?

 

[SleepyJoe]

With the mental health act application, Does this only apply to the stalking and intimidation charges? Or does it cover the lying to the crime commission ones to?

Not 100% sure, but I think it only refers to the assault and stalking/intimidation charges. The lying to the CC is a separate matter and I would be very surprised to hear that you could use a mental health defence for such a charge (my thinking is that unless a person is floridly psychotic, you can't explain away lying to the CC with something like anxiety/depression etc). But as I said, not sure - I'll try and find out!

 

[KateM]

“It is very sobering to reflect that without Kristo filming the entire event, and having the resources to mount a solid legal defence, he could well have a conviction against his name as a stalker,” Mr Davis said.

The lawyer described the offence as “utterly trivial” and said it was shocking that Mr Langker was arrested in the way he was.

Mr Langker will now consider taking civil action against the police."


So in the ^^^above case, it seems that the police were bullying this defendant and made these exaggerated accusations into serious charges of stalking and intimidation. They had to drop the charges when videos of the alleged 'crimes' surfaced and showed he did not threaten or stalk the politician.

He merely walked past him and spoke to him out loud.

I have a feeling that the allegations against the foster parents, of them stalking and intimidating their foster child, may be of a similar nature. I think they may be exaggerated and set forth as a way to try and rattle them, in order to get a confession of some kind. JMO

The FP's have been charged over the alleged ASSAULT of a child. That's more than intimidation. The FM is appealing under the mental health card, so this is more serious than the case you reference.

 

[KateM]

I haven’t read her book. I recall someone posting on social media an excerpt which had an 8.40 leaving time. I don’t believe that’s correct at all, hence why l didn’t provide a link and was pointing out the only time l had seen it theorised.

I don't know that CO is a particularly reliable source of information with this case to be honest...