Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #71

[sleepinoz]

Bill Spedding's alibis have been proven. He has the receipt from the cafe and witnesses gave testimony at the inquest that they saw him at the school event.

Yes, but as per the post I was responding to - the Coroner hasn't cleared him either have the Police. IMO

 

[sleepinoz]

I'm assuming the FGM bought food in for the Foster's and kids visit?

Sorry, but what does FGM buying food have to do with my question about asking MFC to buy the paper in her walk through?

 

[JBowie]

Just because his lawyer stood in Coronial Court and gave him his alibi doesn't mean that we know the Coroner's findings about that. His lawyer was doing his job.

Two witnesses gave testimony to the Taree session.

Overington p256:

Angel Eschler told the court -- via video link -- that she knew the Speddings because they would sometimes bring their boys into her salon for haircuts. Ms Eschler had three children at Laurieton Public School and she told the Coroner she attended a special assembly at the school on 12 September 2014 –- the day of William’s disappearance -– during which school kids sang a version of ‘Hallelujah’ which had parents in tears. Her son, and one of the young boys who lived with the Speddings, received awards that day.

Overington p257:

Craddock: "Do you have a specific recollection of seeing Mr Spedding at the assembly where the boy got the award?

Gordon Weigold: "Most certainly ... as I said, when the children filed out, I remember giving [him] a high-five, and looked back and saw Bill nod an approval to me for encouraging [him].”

. . .

Mr Spedding’s old neighbour Dean Pollord was called to court in Taree, to explain the statement that he had given, about seeing Mr Spedding’s van driving erratically in the bush, the day after William disappeared.

Mr Spedding’s lawyer, Peter O'Brien, had been able to establish that it couldn’t have been Mr Spedding because he was at an AFL function for one of the boys that day. He had personally tracked down and tendered a video of him sitting at one of the communal tables.

 

[SouthAussie]

Two witnesses gave testimony to the Taree session.

Overington p256:

Angel Eschler told the court -- via video link -- that she knew the Speddings because they would sometimes bring their boys into her salon for haircuts. Ms Eschler had three children at Laurieton Public School and she told the Coroner she attended a special assembly at the school on 12 September 2014 –- the day of William’s disappearance -– during which school kids sang a version of ‘Hallelujah’ which had parents in tears. Her son, and one of the young boys who lived with the Speddings, received awards that day.

Overington p257:

Craddock: "Do you have a specific recollection of seeing Mr Spedding at the assembly where the boy got the award?

Gordon Weigold: "Most certainly ... as I said, when the children filed out, I remember giving [him] a high-five, and looked back and saw Bill nod an approval to me for encouraging [him].”

. . .

Mr Spedding’s old neighbour Dean Pollord was called to court in Taree, to explain the statement that he had given, about seeing Mr Spedding’s van driving erratically in the bush, the day after William disappeared.

Mr Spedding’s lawyer, Peter O'Brien, had been able to establish that it couldn’t have been Mr Spedding because he was at an AFL function for one of the boys that day. He had personally tracked down and tendered a video of him sitting at one of the communal tables.

Yes, thank you. I am aware.

GW was a very late witness to this whole ordeal.
And the cafe receipt really proved nothing other than one of the Speddings paid for 2 lots of coffee and cake that morning. The cafe manager couldn't say if he had or hadn't been there that morning.

Again, I am not saying he was involved. But evidently the Coroner wanted to check out his alibi and form her own conclusion.

And, as yet, we know none of her conclusions.

imo

 

[KateM]

Yes, thank you. I am aware.

GW was a very late witness to this whole ordeal.
And the cafe receipt really proved nothing other than one of the Speddings paid for 2 lots of coffee and cake that morning. The cafe manager couldn't say if he had or hadn't been there that morning.

Again, I am not saying he was involved. But evidently the Coroner wanted to check out his alibi and form her own conclusion.

And, as yet, we know none of her conclusions.

imo

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/extyrrell-top-cop-gary-jubelin-to-give-evidence-in-former-personofinterest-lawsuit/news-story/ddb1cf98b011d0f34a358574d53d3f56

 

[JBowie]

Yes, thank you. I am aware.

GW was a very late witness to this whole ordeal.

IMO everything that supported Spedding's non-involvement was late to the table because Jubelin had decided he was Suspect No 1 and, again IMO, under Jubelin the police were not interested in actively finding anything that contradicted that position.

 

[SouthAussie]

IMO everything that supported Spedding's non-involvement was late to the table because Jubelin had decided he was Suspect No 1 and, again IMO, under Jubelin the police were not interested in actively finding anything that contradicted that position.

Then you may not be aware that BS asked people to look at their photos and see if he was in any of them from the assembly.
And that the police spoke with the school to see if they remembered him.
And that they spoke with the cafe manager.
And that Jubes did a walkthrough - which we have seen - with MS.
(IIRC BS said they sat in one spot at the assembly, and MS said they sat in another spot.)

Trying to rule him in or rule him out.
Trying to close off the investigation into BS that Hans Rupp started before Jubes took over the case.

 

[JBowie]

Trying to rule him in or rule him out.
Trying to close off the investigation into BS that Hans Rupp started before Jubes took over the case.

Clearly, from what we now know, none of what the police did was effective in that regard, so I am not convinced that they seriously wanted to eliminate him and I personally put that down to Jubelin's tunnel vision.

As I've said here befoire, I will be interested to see if the Coroner has anything to say about the amount of time and resources that police spent barking up wrong trees.

 

[SouthAussie]

Clearly, from what we now know, none of what the police did was effective in that regard, so I am not convinced that they seriously wanted to eliminate him and I personally put that down to Jubelin's tunnel vision.

As I've said here befoire, I will be interested to see if the Coroner has anything to say about the amount of time and resources that police spent barking up wrong trees.

I am actually not understanding why there seems to be resistance that Hans Rupp started the investigation and the searches into BS. And that the investigation needed to be completed.

Or why the police should not have been going hard at relevant POIs in trying to find little William.

Or why there is deemed to be tunnel vision when the police went on to investigate TJ, DN, PB, RD, PS, FA (and probably others, including the FP again).

There was evidently enough red flags to put BS way up high on the list. And Hans Rupp decided to target BS once he had cleared all of the parents.

Happy to agree to disagree.

 

[Mauig’ma]

I’ve enjoyed reading all ur posts since I’ve been busy dealing with some medical issues. I’m happy we’re all still here trying to get justice for lil William. I’ve been praying a lot lately and my prayers have included William every time. Thank you to all of you on his forum for keeping his case alive. I trust le this time around. I truly feel they will be able to solve his after all this time. I have a good feeling and I’ll never give up hope. Keep up with the great posts. We may not all agree but we agree with one thing. That’s that lil William deserves justice no matter how long it takes. I’m sorry for the personal info. Not relevant I know. Prayers for William and his sister today and every day. God Speed. Keep the faith and never give up hope. All my opinion of course.

 

[SouthAussie]

And yet you seem to have a problem now with police going hard on the FFC as a POI...

No, that is not the case. Because I think the police were following Coronial Orders in their most recent search. I think the Coroner wanted certain things checked before she releases her Coronial Report.

The charges of alleged assault and 'lying' will sort themselves out, for whatever they are.

But I do not think that listing inconsistencies proves anything. Without any evidence. There are always inconsistencies, with any POI.

 

[drsleuth]

No, that is not the case. Because I think the police were following Coronial Orders in their most recent search. I think the Coroner wanted certain things checked before she releases her Coronial Report.

The charges of alleged assault and 'lying' will sort themselves out, for whatever they are.

But I do not think that listing inconsistencies proves anything. Without any evidence. There are always inconsistencies, with any POI.

True SA, if everyone's memories of that morning matched , than people would be suspicious of that too IMO

 

[Mauig’ma]

If the poi is telling the truth there shouldn’t be any inconsistencies imo

 

[seekingjustice**]

No, that is not the case. Because I think the police were following Coronial Orders in their most recent search. I think the Coroner wanted certain things checked before she releases her Coronial Report.

The charges of alleged assault and 'lying' will sort themselves out, for whatever they are.

But I do not think that listing inconsistencies proves anything. Without any evidence. There are always inconsistencies, with any POI.

Listing inconsistencies in witness statements is one of the factors used to measure a person’s credibility. Taking into account that the FFC has been named the SOLE POI, it’s fair to say that she may have had a motive to lie, which would affect the truthfulness of her statements.

In a court of law, a witness may be cross-examined about a prior inconsistent statement IMO.

 

[drsleuth]

bingo!

The most logical explanation.
That is where strikeforce rosanne appears to be working with.

There has been zero physical evidence of a kendall boogie man roaming around country acreages that practically no (minimal at best) children live in.
The resources that have been thrown at this idea anyway is astronomical. Noone can ever say LE didn't look hard at every outside possibility.


You really have to go there to comprehend how unrealistic the abduction theory is.

MOO

I disagree, many spots someone could have been watching from ( eg the Miller's house where no one was home ) . Many of the houses are well back of the street with lots of trees & shrubs where anyone could have been watching from IMO

Could someone have purposefully manipulated the girl's memory, meeting events, smudging the timeline? Repeating a narrative to legitimize it?

Perhaps she did see Wm run after the FFMC when he left (whether once or as I have postulated twice). Perhaps the FFFC took advantage of the memory-malleability of the very young and the very old, attempting to convince them that 20-30 minutes was mere minutes.

The FGma's account slips some truths in. I think she was genuinely trying to make sense of both Wm's disappearance and her daughter's, when she went around to the road, finding neither.

Perhaps she did sound an early alarm.

I wonder when and whether she knew her daughter had left in her car. And with what for an explanation?!

At some point did the FFFC convince her mother to "recall" things a certain way, effectively setting her up for collusion?

The truth of what happened that day seems to be trying to wriggle free.

JMO

No one gave any evidence of seeing the FGM out on the street / road, certainly not AMS.

There are so many holes in her memory in her walkthru that don't make any sense to me ( and remember that only a small snippet of her walk thru has been published by the Daily Mail / Candice Sutton, who by the way was only at a small amount of the inquest -- the first few days I think from memory )

There has to be a chunk of time missing from FGM's account because by the time she gets to the road AMS is involved which means that MFC has already returned and met up with FFC, and he's started yelling and running around up past where FGM and Lindsay had been sitting, but she hasn't noticed that, she's only looking for FFC because FFC has been away from the patio for a few minutes. And by the time FGM gets to the road FFC is already down the far end, after speaking with MFC at the house and somehow getting down there without FGM, who is coming down the hill across the yard, seeing her pass. It's not possible it happened like that.

I agree JLZ

I agree. Also, why didn't the FFC tell the 000 operator that she had driven up to Batar Creek Rd to 'look' for him?

Why would she, why would a 000 call taker need to know that?? What would it have achieved? She siad she had looked & couldn't find him, hence the 000 call

100% agree with you Kate - one of the reasons IMO she was not honest from the start.

At 1 minute 50 seconds into the call she tells the operator "we walked up and down Benaroon Drive and can't find him".

No mention of the infamous drive that she took. Why?

She also confirms to the operator that William has been missing since around 10.30am but IMO he went missing much earlier than this.

The FFC said in her 000 call that she had been looking for him for for about 15 or 20 minutes, she said "I though it could be 5 it could be longer because he was just playing around here, we heard him & than we heard nothing " ( the call was made @ 10:57 )

This article in the DM says that both the FFC and the FG went inside. The story has changed a lot over the years...

False leads and unfruitful search for missing toddler is scaled back

Investigators have had hundreds of tips and possible sightings of missing toddler William Tyrell in Kendall on the New South Wales mid north coast. But no one has found a trace and police dogs failed to even locate a scent of the missing three-year-old.

www.dailymail.co.uk

All 3 were out on the back deck, William's sister was still drawing ......

 

[drsleuth]

If the poi is telling the truth there shouldn’t be any inconsistencies imo

Does that apply to another POI PS as well, as he had a hell of a lot of inconsistancies ??

 

[kiwi50]

i still want to know if these two losers had any connections to the other local paedophiles.

Pair on hundreds of child abuse charges back in court

Two facing hundreds of charges in relation to an alleged domestic online network of child sex offenders have...

www.illawarramercury.com.au

If they happened to come across William he never stood a chance.

 

[SouthAussie]

Listing inconsistencies in witness statements is one of the factors used to measure a person’s credibility. Taking into account that the FFC has been named the SOLE POI, it’s fair to say that she may have had a motive to lie, which would affect the truthfulness of her statements.

In a court of law, a witness may be cross-examined about a prior inconsistent statement IMO.

Though I think we will find that in a court of law (in NSW) inconsistencies can only be brought into the case if the inconsistencies were made by the same person.

In other words, a lawyer cannot say "You said this, and Ms X said that".

This is likely because there are many, many scientific and psychological studies (articles) out there about how common it is for people's memory of the same event to be different. And it is not the defendant's (or witnesses) concern if someone else remembers something differently.

From what I am seeing here, the primary inconsistencies that are being mentioned are about differences in FGM's account and FM's account. The secondary inconsistencies that are being mentioned seem to be about memory recall.


(1) Except as provided by this section, a cross-examiner must not question a witness about a previous representation alleged to have been made by a person other than the witness.

The Public Defenders Home

Homepage and welcome to the Public Defenders website. Public Defenders are salaried barristers independent of the government who appear in serious criminal matters for clients who have been granted legal aid.

www.publicdefenders.nsw.gov.au

 

[seekingjustice**]

Though I think we will find that in a court of law (in NSW) inconsistencies can only be brought into the case if the inconsistencies were made by the same person.

In other words, a lawyer cannot say "You said this, and Ms X said that".

This is likely because there are many, many scientific and psychological studies (articles) out there about how common it is for people's memory of the same event to be different. And it is not the defendant's (or witnesses) concern if someone else remembers something differently.

From what I am seeing here, the primary inconsistencies that are being mentioned are about differences in FGM's account and FM's account. The secondary inconsistencies that are being mentioned seem to be about memory recall.


(1) Except as provided by this section, a cross-examiner must not question a witness about a previous representation alleged to have been made by a person other than the witness.

The Public Defenders Home

Homepage and welcome to the Public Defenders website. Public Defenders are salaried barristers independent of the government who appear in serious criminal matters for clients who have been granted legal aid.

www.publicdefenders.nsw.gov.au

The general rule is that a cross-examiner cannot question a witness about a previous representation alleged to have been made by another person. There are some exceptions to this general rule:

Where the evidence about the representation has been admitted; or
The court is satisfied it will be admitted.

I agree a lot of mentions have been about the inconsistencies in both FFC and FGM statements however I wouldn't say that they are the only inconsistencies. I have also noticed the FFC's story has changed in statements that she has made - I will highlight some of them later on when I have time.
bbm

 

[SouthAussie]

The general rule is that a cross-examiner cannot question a witness about a previous representation alleged to have been made by another person. There are some exceptions to this general rule:

Where the evidence about the representation has been admitted; or
The court is satisfied it will be admitted.

I agree a lot of mentions have been about the inconsistencies in both FFC and FGM statements however I wouldn't say that they are the only inconsistencies. I have also noticed the FFC's story has changed in statements that she has made - I will highlight some of them later on when I have time.
bbm

Not a problem.

I was just reading some court accounts about single witnesses saying things like "He was clean shaven" then later on saying "He had a beard".

Memory recall is another thing we researched way back in the threads. Why a memory changes (it changes in one way or another every single time a person recalls it), the effect of top down processes, the differences in short term memory and long term memory, etc etc.