Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #72

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  • #1,081
I believe Mr Craddock made some very clever statements during the Inquest… I also know others don’t agree….. However I believe Mr Craddock chose his words very carefully ….

i believe this was a double edge sword type comment:

If there is a lady out there who was driving ... with a child in the car, we want that person to come forward,” he said.

Yes the comments were made at the completion of Ronald Chapman’s evidence ….. However he didn’t specify a beige 4WD etc it was a very open ended question …

I believe this statement may have also been directed at FM … asking her to come forward…. About the drive ….. as the Inquest shut down quite unexpectedly just one witness later …

Aug 22 - Geoff Owen (in Taree)
Aug 25 - Margaret Spedding (in Sydney)
Aug 25 - Bill Spedding
Aug 26 - no testimony (publicly) heard
Aug 27 - Ronald Chapman
Aug 27 - Katrina Cherry
Aug 27 - inquest suddenly suspended

This was also when the photo examination request was made by Swift and agreed to by the Coroner…. Is this possibly where the investigation was changing focus behind the scenes ???


ALL MOO
I completely agree with you Slouth. I believe Mr Craddock chose his words carefully on a number of occasions throughout the inquests.

Here’s one from the inquest 2020
“The notion it was treated as a missing persons investigation (in the first few months) is just simply wrong - completely and utterly wrong," Mr Craddock said.
"That is just not what happened."
He said the search for William was a criminal investigation "from the get go"
It would be unusual for a Postie to drive a Ute …. Without a canopy or something to make it more like a 4WD for Mail protection and parcels , etc… imo
A “Ute” to me suggests an open back on the vehicle …

But JMO
You’re quite right Slough. Type the word Ute into google and this is what comes up. A Ute vehicle is a mix between a sedan and a pick up truck.
 

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  • #1,082
Coincidentally, Google streetview (2010) shows an open-backed ute in the grassed driveway belonging to the post office, and a ute with a canopy parked in front.

May mean something, may mean nothing, but I remembered that we noticed this years ago.

View attachment 356933

Interesting that most article seems to say “car“ rather than “Ute” or 4WD…
IMO looks like a “tradies Ute“ in the photo …

Sharelle and Peter Crabb said they were on their back verandah when they heard the car about 10.05am, the inquest was told.

https://www.[link removed].au/william-tyrrell-latest/

One set of neighbours — the Crabbs — have said they heard a car


The couple both heard a car on Benaroon Drive that Friday before they were told about the missing boy, which they say did a U-turn before it drove off but sounded exactly like the postman.


The inquest heard today that neighbours of William’s foster grandmother heard a car do a U-turn on Benaroon Drive on the morning in question.

Peter and Sharelle Crabb, who lived at 51 Benaroon Drive at the time, heard the sound of a vehicle turning and driving away.

 
  • #1,083
I think FF trip checks out totally with his timeline …. he is not a POI …

I think FM is the single POI (now that FGM has died) for a reason …

Police have analysed phone calls etc and found that he sent the text by Siri “home in 5” but no other communication between him and FM that we know of …

That model Landrover also had GPS / Sat Nav capability and I am sure the Police have checked that … imo

JMO
The Siri call "home in 5" doesn't mean, someone has to be home in 5 minutes really. Why is it important at all, if a technic freak (?) is using an unnecessary announcement? "Unnecessary" is my personal opinion. (Times, where housewifes had to get the slippers ready, when the householder arrives, are long gone, I hope.)
 
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  • #1,084
The Siri call "home in 5" doesn't mean, someone has to be home in 5 minutes really. Why is it important at all, if a technic freak (?) is using an unnecessary announcement? "Unnecessary" is my personal opinion.
I am sort of non plussed about the “home in 5” I think it was just a habit FF had ….
Lots of people (observing work colleagues) seem to call or text in these days of mobiles to say they are on the way home….

But also my personal opinion…
 
  • #1,085
DrSleuth’s post in relation to Mr & Mrs Crabb posted Jan 14th 2022. I wanted to quote it directly however there was no quote link available to do this so I have copied and pasted the post for reference

“I agree that the evidence is only about 1 car & both thought it was the postie

Mr Crabb said about 10 mins after they got home & Mrs Crabb said about 40 mins.

From my notes they got home at 09:30-09:35 ( after initially saying it was 10:30 ---police retraced their movements , they had been to a butcher's shop ( heard this from Mr Craddock & they had a receipt , they had also used a loyalty card somewhere ( from Detective Beacrofts testimony)


Corrected times
09:40 - 09:45 : Mr Crabb hears a car turn around, sounds like posties ( from the inquest ) about 10 mins after getting home

09:59 – 10:07
: PS call Casino hospital, call lasts 8 minutes


10:10 – 10:15 : Mrs Crabb hears car sitting on back deck , about 40mins ( Mr Crabb said 10 mins ) after arriving home , thought “ sounded like the postman, car came up reasonably fast , did a u-turn & continued on it’s way” ( from her evidence )


So that puts the time MR C heard the vehicle @ about 09:40 - 09:45 & Mrs C @ about 10:10 - 10:15


From memory , I think MRS C said she also prepared some of the evening meal also before going out onto the back deck to have a cup of tea. I think that would have taken more than 10 mins IMO ?

IMO I think Mrs C is correct & that fits with Laidlaws & Beacrofts time as well of 10:10 or 10:15”
Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sep 2014 - #67
And at some stage before PS call to hospital, his wife left for Bingo. IMO, there was quite a few comings & goings from residents that morning, which makes it even more strange that no one witnessed anything unusual or untoward.

For me, that indicates that what ever it was that happened to William did not happen on / from that street.
IMO, IF he was abducted, someone must have snuck through the rear bush & grabbed him, then departed with him the same way.
Alternatively, he must’ve been removed from the property in a vehicle.
 
  • #1,086
I believe Mr Craddock made some very clever statements during the Inquest… I also know others don’t agree….. However I believe Mr Craddock chose his words very carefully ….

i believe this was a double edge sword type comment:

If there is a lady out there who was driving ... with a child in the car, we want that person to come forward,” he said.

Yes the comments were made at the completion of Ronald Chapman’s evidence ….. However he didn’t specify a beige 4WD etc it was a very open ended question …

I believe this statement may have also been directed at FM … asking her to come forward…. About the drive ….. as the Inquest shut down quite unexpectedly just one witness later …

Aug 22 - Geoff Owen (in Taree)
Aug 25 - Margaret Spedding (in Sydney)
Aug 25 - Bill Spedding
Aug 26 - no testimony (publicly) heard
Aug 27 - Ronald Chapman
Aug 27 - Katrina Cherry
Aug 27 - inquest suddenly suspended

This was also when the photo examination request was made by Swift and agreed to by the Coroner…. Is this possibly where the investigation was changing focus behind the scenes ???


ALL MOO
I agree completely.
Interesting that most article seems to say “car“ rather than “Ute” or 4WD…
IMO looks like a “tradies Ute“ in the photo …

Sharelle and Peter Crabb said they were on their back verandah when they heard the car about 10.05am, the inquest was told.


One set of neighbours — the Crabbs — have said they heard a car


The couple both heard a car on Benaroon Drive that Friday before they were told about the missing boy, which they say did a U-turn before it drove off but sounded exactly like the postman.


The inquest heard today that neighbours of William’s foster grandmother heard a car do a U-turn on Benaroon Drive on the morning in question.

Peter and Sharelle Crabb, who lived at 51 Benaroon Drive at the time, heard the sound of a vehicle turning and driving away.

and I think it’s reasonable to say to Slouth that the Crabbs thought it may have been the postie due to certain characteristics like the speed of the car, the brief pause of the car when stopped at the fgm house “as if to drop letter in letterbox”, the time the car was heard “the postie had done an early run that morning but the 10ish time was the usual postal run in the street” and not necessarily that the car itself sounding like a Ute. It may have sounded like the postie yes but not narrowing that opinion down to just the vehicle itself but the characteristics of that vehicle. When something isn’t visible then your other senses for example hearing tune in to overcompensate what the eyes can’t see.
But getting back to your previous post I definitely think that there were multiple light build moments at the inquest that initiated the drive for the most recent searches. The searches were specific they were targeted directly with the idea that the Ffc may be somehow responsible for W disappearance. I believe the inquest was what this case needed and it opened the door for transparency (not so much for us) but for the coroner and the courts. Thank goodness W has a dedicated team of detectives representing him and determined to bring lil W home
 
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  • #1,087
  • #1,088
And at some stage before PS call to hospital, his wife left for Bingo. IMO, there was quite a few comings & goings from residents that morning, which makes it even more strange that no one witnessed anything unusual or untoward.

For me, that indicates that what ever it was that happened to William did not happen on / from that street.
IMO, IF he was abducted, someone must have snuck through the rear bush & grabbed him, then departed with him the same way.
Alternatively, he must’ve been removed from the property in a vehicle.
Comings and goings, but not between 9:37 and 10:30. Those on the margins, some of them we've looked at, and some not so much.
 
  • #1,089
The Siri call "home in 5" doesn't mean, someone has to be home in 5 minutes really. Why is it important at all, if a technic freak (?) is using an unnecessary announcement? "Unnecessary" is my personal opinion. (Times, where housewifes had to get the slippers ready, when the householder arrives, are long gone, I hope.)
I think it may have been a habit so the children could run out to meet him.

JMO
 
  • #1,090
I feel it's important to say this again and as a stand-alone.

The foster mother DID take a drive that morning. If the C's were positioned to hear a postie in that precise location, they would've had to hear the foster mother driving away and/or returning! Unless it occurred much later and I don't think it did.

JMO
 
  • #1,091
Time of William’s disappearance:

1, FFC - She says that it was 10.30am (000 call says that) …. Was this an estimate by her OR did she know for sure? Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52

2. Detective Inspector Laidlaw says it was 10.10 – 10.15 Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52

JMO – There is something wrong in this:

“D: I had a meeting and I arrived back and there was a bit of confusion if William was with me, because he’s always looking out for me and my car, and I was on my way back, and I’d arrived back and been asked if William was with me and I said no, then I immediately got out of the car and started looking around, and within 5 minutes we raised the alarm and I think I ran the perimeter of the whole street within about 10-15 minutes, and I mean, he wouldn’t, he’s not a wanderer, he wouldn’t even cross the street by himself. He wouldn’t go far.” (IN THEIR WORDS: William Tyrrell's parents talk of the day their boy went missing and the 'living nightmare' they endure)

1. FFC would have been searching for William BEFORE THE TIME of MFC’s text message (which was 10.30am exactly).

2. From Laidlaw’s time of 10.10 – 10.15 (that search time duration would have been for approx 20 minutes (and at 10.56am, she told the 000 Operator that they had been searching for 15 – 20 mins, and when the Operator said “OK. So he's been missing since about 10:30?”, and FFC replied “Yeah I’d say so”). SO, when the Operator: How long has he been missing? FFC didn’t know (she answered: “I th... well, I think, well, we've been looking him for him now for about fifteen or twenty minutes but...”.

3. AT THAT POINT (once she had discovered William to be missing) she hadn’t received the text message from MFC! …… and she wouldn’t then (at that time) have thought that William could be with MFC!

4. If she had been aware of the real time at the time that she noticed ‘William was quiet’, then she would have told 000 Operator that William had been missing since approx 10.15am.

5. SO, not knowing what the time was (Refer to 2. above regarding the question from the Operator)... at 10.30am FFC saw the text from the MFC, and so when he finally arrived at 10.35am, she wouldn’t seriously have thought that William would be with him! Because she has said that she had searched down the side of the house to the road, and MFC’s vehicle wouldn’t have been in sight …. so when he finally arrived, she would know that William would not have been in the vehicle with him.

6. To construct her story later (when she was asked for those details by LE), because she didn’t know the actual time when she noticed William had gone missing, FFC has obviously used MFC’s text message time (10.30) as a starting time (text time message time on their phones is valid).

7. Question: Why did MFC say when he arrived back at 10.35am: that FFC then asked him “Is William with you?” and he replied: “No, why would he be with me?”

…. Was that just pure embellishment of their interaction? (Was MFC just trying to support FFC with her description of William’s disappearance?)

(Counsel assisting the coroner, Gerard Craddock SC, asked the man: “You didn’t stop and have a conversation with her [the foster mother] about where she’d already searched, is there any reason for that?”).

William Tyrrell's foster father 'hysterical' when child went missing, inquest hears
 
  • #1,092
I completely agree with you Slouth. I believe Mr Craddock chose his words carefully on a number of occasions throughout the inquests.

Here’s one from the inquest 2020
“The notion it was treated as a missing persons investigation (in the first few months) is just simply wrong - completely and utterly wrong," Mr Craddock said.
"That is just not what happened."
He said the search for William was a criminal investigation "from the get go"

From the get go? Really? I'd love to see what supporting evidence Craddock had backing that assertion.
 
  • #1,093
It had to be that she completed her drive before calling LE.

It had to be that the foster grandma was unaware of that drive and that it occurred during that span of time where she could find neither Wm nor the foster mother.

It had to be that she ERASED 30 minutes from the morning's timeline and IMO sought to steamroll the foster grandma into remembering/reciting it her way.

Wm leaves the patio.

(Missing 30 minutes.)

Foster mother reminds foster grandma that Wm's been missing 5 minutes (but the foster grandma had to question that, in her mind at least! She would know that Wm exited, some minutes passed, the foster mother left, in search of him, and then MORE time elapsed, enough that the foster grandma felt compelled or concerned or curious enough to go in search of them her, which is more than five minutes!).

After the drive, IMO, the foster mother makes a show of searching in the cupboards and throughout the house. (Was she keeping a close eye on the foster daughter if she felt Wm had been abducted? It's a bad day to have two children abducted, in succession.)

IMO she furthers her narrative with LE -- missing for five, searching for fifteen or twenty, no mention of the missing 30.

Here's a new thought -- if Wm was exhausting her that day and tensions were high, is it possible that the foster mother grabbed a very alive Wm and drove off with him, without carseat, with the intention to hand him off to his PREFERRED foster parent?

I still say that photo was not for a scrapbook. It was a photo of Wm being "naughty", (naughty as defined by a tightly wound caregiver with IMO unreasonable expectations of children's behavior). I think she labeled it "Daddy Tiger" and doesn't like that photo because it represents -- nay, it depicts -- Wm's loyalty to the foster father, and it's not a happy connection FOR HER.

Imagine if Wm refused to buckle in, refused to sit down, ramped up on the busyness of morning and the adventure of meeting up with the foster father. There may have been a flurry of texts, later deleted and not discovered until much later, after their digital forensics were ordered (MOO).

I daresay, if something like this happened, she and Wm never caught up to the foster father. Extreme anger, impatience, discipline?

MOO

9:47, photos. Not posed, not vignettes, not scrapbooky.

9:50, Wm scolded, Wm and foster mother leave the patio.

Immediate drive. Returning anywhere from 10:15 to..... without Wm, without whatever she discarded roadside.

Begins searching with the foster grandma, the search clock (re)starting, when it actually started, right there on the patio at 9:47.

JMO
 
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  • #1,094
I completely agree with you Slouth. I believe Mr Craddock chose his words carefully on a number of occasions throughout the inquests.

Here’s one from the inquest 2020
“The notion it was treated as a missing persons investigation (in the first few months) is just simply wrong - completely and utterly wrong," Mr Craddock said.
"That is just not what happened."
He said the search for William was a criminal investigation "from the get go"

You’re quite right Slough. Type the word Ute into google and this is what comes up. A Ute vehicle is a mix between a sedan and a pick up truck.
What did the foster carers drive?
 
  • #1,095
  • #1,096
Thanks. What sound does it make? Like a postie car?
 
  • #1,097
Thanks. What sound does it make? Like a postie car?
I don’t think so …. Much quieter as a fairly plush 4WD Wagon that drives more like a car than a 4WD …. IMO
 
  • #1,098
It had to be that she completed her drive before calling LE.

It had to be that the foster grandma was unaware of that drive and that it occurred during that span of time where she could find neither Wm nor the foster mother.

It had to be that she ERASED 30 minutes from the morning's timeline and IMO sought to steamroll the foster grandma into remembering/reciting it her way.

Wm leaves the patio.

(Missing 30 minutes.)

Foster mother reminds foster grandma that Wm's been missing 5 minutes (but the foster grandma had to question that, in her mind at least! She would know that Wm exited, some minutes passed, the foster mother left, in search of him, and then MORE time elapsed, enough that the foster grandma felt compelled or concerned or curious enough to go in search of them her, which is more than five minutes!).

After the drive, IMO, the foster mother makes a show of searching in the cupboards and throughout the house. (Was she keeping a close eye on the foster daughter if she felt Wm had been abducted? It's a bad day to have two children abducted, in succession.)

IMO she furthers her narrative with LE -- missing for five, searching for fifteen or twenty, no mention of the missing 30.

Here's a new thought -- if Wm was exhausting her that day and tensions were high, is it possible that the foster mother grabbed a very alive Wm and drove off with him, without carseat, with the intention to hand him off to his PREFERRED foster parent?

I still say that photo was not for a scrapbook. It was a photo of Wm being "naughty", (naughty as defined by a tightly wound caregiver with IMO unreasonable expectations of children's behavior). I think she labeled it "Daddy Tiger" and doesn't like that photo because it represents -- nay, it depicts -- Wm's loyalty to the foster father, and it's not a happy connection FOR HER.

Imagine if Wm refused to buckle in, refused to sit down, ramped up on the busyness of morning and the adventure of meeting up with the foster father. There may have been a flurry of texts, later deleted and not discovered until much later, after their digital forensics were ordered (MOO).

I daresay, if something like this happened, she and Wm never caught up to the foster father. Extreme anger, impatience, discipline?

MOO

9:47, photos. Not posed, not vignettes, not scrapbooky.

9:50, Wm scolded, Wm and foster mother leave the patio.

Immediate drive. Returning anywhere from 10:15 to..... without Wm, without whatever she discarded roadside.

Begins searching with the foster grandma, the search clock (re)starting, when it actually started, right there on the patio at 9:47.

JMO
Extracted from your post : "It had to be that she ERASED 30 minutes from the morning's timeline and IMO sought to steamroll the foster grandma into remembering/reciting it her way."

JMO - And the 'missing' timeline may have stayed that way... EXCEPT for the fact that FFC had to later on admit to her drive down Batar Creek Road in the Mazda because she learned that 'someone' had provided information to LE that she had been seen (maybe the truck driver who she said that she had pulled over for).

SO, this then changed the disappearance time from 10.30am ... to 'between 10.05/10.10 - 10.15'.

In their Media interviews later, FFC and MFC then, between them, chose to substantiate/embellish their details to focus on particular aspects.

Edited: to include the estimated times of Detectives: Laidlaw and I think ..Partridge
 
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  • #1,099
  • #1,100
Extracted from your post : "It had to be that she ERASED 30 minutes from the morning's timeline and IMO sought to steamroll the foster grandma into remembering/reciting it her way."

JMO - And the 'missing' timeline may have stayed that way... EXCEPT for the fact that FFC had to later on admit to her drive down Batar Creek Road in the Mazda because she learned that 'someone' had provided information to LE that she had been seen (maybe the truck driver who she said that she had pulled over for).

SO, this then changed the disappearance time from 10.30am ... to 'between 10.05/10.10 - 10.15'.

In their Media interviews later, FFC and MFC then, between them, chose to substantiate/embellish their details to focus on particular aspects.

Edited: to include the estimated times of Detectives: Laidlaw and I think ..Partridge
Correction: It was Detective Laura Beacroft who proposed the 10.05 - 10.15 am timeline (Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52)
 
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