Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #72

[Megnut]

JMO - Extracted from your post SA: "if no-one but William did anything to make him disappear.", the opportunity for that to occur would not appear to fit in with the description by FFC in what William did in jumping off the back deck and disappearing around the side of the house roaring (Or maybe it didn't happen as she described!) : William Tyrrell's foster mother filmed retracing her steps with police

BBM "His foster mother told the 2019 inquest into his disappearance that the child had been playing with dice and pencils but changed to play a game called 'Daddy Tiger'.

'He crawled around on the ground for a bit, playing tiger. He jumped off the deck, ran around the side of the house and roared,' she said.

The picture taken around half an hour earlier also shows William roaring for the camera.

Gerard Craddock, counsel assisting the coroner told the inquest: 'Whilst dressed as a Spider-Man he was actually a tiger. You can see him roaring.'

Police estimated William vanished between 10.05am and 10.20am.

This is my ongoing point.

If there was no roaring, this is a lot of storytelling. Which means we have to take the hard look at the storyteller.

"Wm was crawling, roaring, then disappeared around the corner. Here, this picture confirms it."

Minus the glaring time gap IMO exposed by the photo itself.

Wm didn't play Daddy Tiger for a half hour. 3 yr olds don't do anything for a half hour! Unless there's a tv or a pillow involved!

If the female caregiver is responsible for the disappearance of Wm, she didn't just have to have a story for LE, she needed a story for the foster grandma and foster daughter too. Collapsing time and misdirecting focus (the game, the roar) IMO does just that.

JMO

 

[Couldbe]

This is my ongoing point.

If there was no roaring, this is a lot of storytelling. Which means we have to take the hard look at the storyteller.

"Wm was crawling, roaring, then disappeared around the corner. Here, this picture confirms it."

Minus the glaring time gap IMO exposed by the photo itself.

Wm didn't play Daddy Tiger for a half hour. 3 yr olds don't do anything for a half hour! Unless there's a tv or a pillow involved!

If the female caregiver is responsible for the disappearance of Wm, she didn't just have to have a story for LE, she needed a story for the foster grandma and foster daughter too. Collapsing time and misdirecting focus (the game, the roar) IMO does just that.

JMO

Great point Megnut .......as you say bbm : "Wm didn't play Daddy Tiger for a half hour. 3 yr olds don't do anything for a half hour!"

JMO - If William was roaring for half an hour, it could bring on an Asthma attack for him.

 

[Megnut]

Great point Megnut .......as you say bbm : "Wm didn't play Daddy Tiger for a half hour. 3 yr olds don't do anything for a half hour!"

JMO - If William was roaring for half an hour, it could bring on an Asthma attack for him.

Credit you. You lined it up.

The new order of events:

Wm was on the patio, playing. (Rolling dice incorrectly.)

Then he wasn't.

Insert half hour that disappeared right alongside Wm.

Female caregiver pops up (foster grandma went in search of her after a time), claiming Wm had just been playing, just gone missing, and IMO that's when the "searching" begins.

IMO she'd already left the property -- and so had Wm.

JMO

 

[Mauig’ma]

Yes, that too Tootsie. Which would be even more of a travesty for the POIs, if no-one but William did anything to make him disappear.

You’re both right. It would be terrible if that was the case. But I don’t see it. Imo

 

[SouthAussie]

You’re both right. It would be terrible if that was the case. But I don’t see it. Imo

The court of public opinion had Lindy Chamberlain convicted for the disappearance of her baby daughter (famous Aussie case). Despite no evidence.
Then a trial sent Lindy to prison for the disappearance. Despite a couple of Coroners, at inquests about the case, finding otherwise.
After 3 years in prison, baby's jacket was found and that proved that Lindy was not responsible. Lindy was released.

Now here we are again, 42 years later, doing similar. imo

I don't know why we always seem to blame the mother. When something happens to a child. Perhaps, as has been posted here before, it is our fears that our own child could be taken if we were a "horrible, negligent" mother like that one. And, of course, we are not.

AFAIK there are multiple situations in which William could have disappeared. Multiple possibilities. Hopefully our current legal practises will require much, much more than divided police opinions.

imo

Death of Azaria Chamberlain

 

[nightrider17]

I agree " Megnut" - from those photos of throwing dice and colouring - which seems to point that he really wasn't participating to the same level as his sister.

So doing this task for 1/2 seems less plausible. I think "Megnut" hit the nail on the head with this.

So that's why I think he was missing from 9.40 - not 10.05.

Maybe the idea of morning tea - would be a way to have William occupied for 20 minutes - so possibly the FFC went inside to prepare food/cuppa tea. Left unattended for 40 minutes.

I am torn as to what happened next.

As per "Couldbe" the situation deteriorated after that photo. Why??
Possibly a incident occurred when he moved into "Tiger Mode" where perhaps he got really boisterous and led to a altercation and trip in the car.

Maybe she said she was taking William for a drive to see - the horses?


Not having been to Grandparents place for 7 months - since Grandfather had passed is quite a long time when children are 2/3/4 years old. In so far as - what keeps them interested and engaged in activities in one age group can do a 360 in another age group. So if you haven't been to a property for that long then I think its kind of unpredictable how your children might behave.

I think a 4 hour drive - different sleeping arrangements - staying at someone else's place - who you are not seeing regularly and they have different rules and expectations it can be a stressful situation. MOO

 

[nightrider17]

I hear what you are saying "SouthAussie" - it is not fair to condemn someone and others in the past have had people pile on like Lindy.

Just the cars parked outside - that the Foster GM never mentioned or MFC or the neighbour seeing. Makes me wonder if this was to redirect to think abduction. Especially not mentioning it with 000 call even when prompted.

The drive in the car.

Some of the timelines just not gelling between the 3 adults.

"Here 5 minutes Ago" by MFC walkthrough

No one seeing the children that morning - but they were on the bikes in driveway and near a tree - to see if he would climb it.

All of these have somewhat explanations, the children were heard, some neighbours heard cars, stress forgetting about cars, exaggerating how long missing only 5 minutes (figure of speech) etc, plenty of POI's with unsavoury backgrounds.

What has the most likely scenario. MOO

 

[Couldbe]

I hear what you are saying "SouthAussie" - it is not fair to condemn someone and others in the past have had people pile on like Lindy.

Just the cars parked outside - that the Foster GM never mentioned or MFC or the neighbour seeing. Makes me wonder if this was to redirect to think abduction. Especially not mentioning it with 000 call even when prompted.

The drive in the car.

Some of the timelines just not gelling between the 3 adults.

"Here 5 minutes Ago" by MFC walkthrough

No one seeing the children that morning - but they were on the bikes in driveway and near a tree - to see if he would climb it.

All of these have somewhat explanations, the children were heard, some neighbours heard cars, stress forgetting about cars, exaggerating how long missing only 5 minutes (figure of speech) etc, plenty of POI's with unsavoury backgrounds.

What has the most likely scenario. MOO

JMO - Do you think Nightrider, that those little children that were heard playing early that morning, could have been Lydene Heslop's children ...... playing in her own yard prior to the two older going to school?

Elderly neighbour tells Tyrrell inquest he remembers 'hearing the kids'
“Mr Savage, who lived across the road from the house where William was playing, said he was sitting on his verandah with his toast and tea between 9am and 9.30am when he heard children playing.”

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph
“Lydene Heslop with her three children Samara, 9, Lexi, 7, and Izzy, 4, who lives on Benaroon Dr, now walks her children to the bus stop each morning since the disappearance of William Tyrrell. Picture: Lindsay Moller

William Tyrrell: The boy no-one can find
"She asked if I'd seen him, but of course, I was inside. I called out to my children, who were playing out the back, and asked if they'd seen him, but they hadn't and then all three of us started searching through the front yard, the side of the house and the backyard and the bush that borders the properties around here.

"The mother had this haunted look on her face. I remember thinking that was how I would look if one of my children went missing. At one point, we all stopped to listen because he was only a little boy and if he was in the bush, then it wouldn't have been long before he stopped and started crying. We didn't hear a thing except the wind in the trees."

 

[nightrider17]

William Tyrrell's foster mother filmed retracing her steps with police

William Tyrrell's foster mother describes how she drove all the way to a busy road before accepting the three-year-old was gone.

www.dailymail.co.uk

About 10am, William's foster mother said she made tea for her and her mother, and sat with the boy on the rear verandah - not the tall verandah at the front, which is one focus of the new police search.
He crawled around on the ground for a bit, playing tiger. He jumped off the deck, ran around the side of the house and roared,' she said.
Police estimated William vanished between 10.05am and 10.20am.
Around 10.30am, William's foster father texted his wife to say he was returning home after buying newspapers nearby.

If at 10.05 he is noticed missing and MFC texts at 10.30 returning 10.35-10.40

There's a lot of activity searching, up and down streets and inside cupboards, including getting in car and driving up and back between 10.05 and 10.40 before MFC returns.

10.05 - 5 minutes running around perimeter of house = 10.10
10.10 - 15 minutes going up the streets and back on foot = 10.25

10.25 - 5-10 minutes access car keys and drive and get back = 10.35
10.35 -5 minutes inside the house, cupboards, rooms, toilet = 10.40
10.40 - Ask MFC if he is with him.

Maybe its possible? MOO

 

[SouthAussie]

What has the most likely scenario. MOO

With absolutely no cadaver scent on the property (or in any of the surrounding searches). I would say that abduction is the most likely scenario.

imo

 

[SLouTh]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> It is difficult to find figures on child cases that potentially fit an abduction scenario and a filicide scenario simultaneously …

Until William’s case is solved we don’t really know which category this case will fit ….and which figures will be most likely correct….and the figures for these 2 scenarios are vastly different…

I did manage to find this research paper on Solved Children’s Homicides that does compare Child Abduction Murder and Child Murder figures and statistics, albeit a USA Study ….

Investigative Case Management for Missing Children Homicides
Christine O. Gregoire
Attorney General of Washington &
U.S. Department of Justice
Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/201253NCJRS.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2HrOXSWPXAxF67OMqbnLSKZG8icGuoDmweuGHJ5VhMlvtv4g_CDcyKAIQ

It makes some interesting points that could be well applied to William’s case.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> Parents ARE always blamed, it’s not a proven method of thinking in solving missing children cases, though.
CS’s parents were blamed for her disappearance, and the public were questioning why they drove around searching for her, and how it happened in the first place.
—————-

I haven’t read much into the 000 call, what parent would go step by step through their movements to an operator, time is precious.
It’s not a murder/suicide scene call in, where the possible perpetrator is on the phone describing the situation in front of them. FM gave a brief account, she wanted the police to come and organise a search.

The investigators will try to tie up loose ends, either clear the FM or build a case where it’s at least possible she played a hand in WT’s disappearance, but imo, if the last proof of life is indisputable, it’s very difficult for them. There are other POIs, there are other plausible reasons why WT disappeared. JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

With absolutely no cadaver scent on the property (or in any of the surrounding searches). I would say that abduction is the most likely scenario.

imo

Abduction, only questionable, how and by whom and on whose behalf. IMO

 

[Megnut]

William Tyrrell's foster mother filmed retracing her steps with police

William Tyrrell's foster mother describes how she drove all the way to a busy road before accepting the three-year-old was gone.

www.dailymail.co.uk

About 10am, William's foster mother said she made tea for her and her mother, and sat with the boy on the rear verandah - not the tall verandah at the front, which is one focus of the new police search.
He crawled around on the ground for a bit, playing tiger. He jumped off the deck, ran around the side of the house and roared,' she said.
Police estimated William vanished between 10.05am and 10.20am.
Around 10.30am, William's foster father texted his wife to say he was returning home after buying newspapers nearby.

If at 10.05 he is noticed missing and MFC texts at 10.30 returning 10.35-10.40

There's a lot of activity searching, up and down streets and inside cupboards, including getting in car and driving up and back between 10.05 and 10.40 before MFC returns.

10.05 - 5 minutes running around perimeter of house = 10.10
10.10 - 15 minutes going up the streets and back on foot = 10.25

10.25 - 5-10 minutes access car keys and drive and get back = 10.35
10.35 -5 minutes inside the house, cupboards, rooms, toilet = 10.40
10.40 - Ask MFC if he is with him.

Maybe its possible? MOO

Or....

Up to 10:35, the drive.

10:35-10:40 "search" the cupboards with foster grandma, then "search" outdoors

If Wm had a fatal injury of some sort and was removed from the residence, there'd be no cadaverine to detect.

Awful question, are there curbs and gutters along those streets? Could Wm's body have been hidden down a sewer grate?

As much as I don't want for Wm's caregiver to be involved, she was arguably the last person to see him so we have to ask the hard questions.

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

Around 10.30am, William's foster father texted his wife to say he was returning home after buying newspapers nearby.

...... whereby the buying of newspapers is doubtful now, because we think, MFC took a first car ride and maybe bought the newspapers already before. IF it is like that indeed, FFC knew about his lie re newspapers. MFC would have known, his wife knew. They must have been in cahoots therefore, I think, although I for a long time thought different.

 

[Couldbe]

With absolutely no cadaver scent on the property (or in any of the surrounding searches). I would say that abduction is the most likely scenario.

imo

From a Mother of young children who lives in Benaroon Dr:

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph
“I didn’t hear anything, so if the person who took him came down Benaroon Dr, they did it without panicking or driving fast or taking off like an idiot, because I would’ve heard,” Ms Heslop said.

“That’s pretty good luck. Especially at 10.30am on a Friday when there should only be one kid on the street, which is mine.”

 

[PrimeSuspect]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> It is difficult to find figures on child cases that potentially fit an abduction scenario and a filicide scenario simultaneously …

Until William’s case is solved we don’t really know which category this case will fit ….and which figures will be most likely correct….and the figures for these 2 scenarios are vastly different…

I did manage to find this research paper on Solved Children’s Homicides that does compare Child Abduction Murder and Child Murder figures and statistics, albeit a USA Study ….

Investigative Case Management for Missing Children Homicides
Christine O. Gregoire
Attorney General of Washington &
U.S. Department of Justice
Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/201253NCJRS.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2HrOXSWPXAxF67OMqbnLSKZG8icGuoDmweuGHJ5VhMlvtv4g_CDcyKAIQ

It makes some interesting points that could be well applied to William’s case.

This was certainly a worthwhile read, I recommend others to check it out.

Alarmingly, the ‘1-5 age male child abduction has a 64% rate of death by a stranger after abduction, 27% by friend/acquaintance and 9% by family/intimate.’
While ‘the 1-5 age female child abduction has a 28% rate of death by a stranger after abduction, 64% by friend/acquaintance and 8% by family/intimate.’
———

What is frustrating about child abduction cases and assumptions made by the public is the use of statistics of deaths caused by parent/primary caregiver, in which, the majority were never classed as abductions, without acknowledging this fact. JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

Awful question, are there curbs and gutters along those streets? Could Wm's body have been hidden down a sewer grate?

Cameras were put into the septic tanks and drains. As per this Australian article. What happened to young William?

A comment from a member ... "I've done plenty of urban caving in my youth and I'm pretty familiar with the underworld. I don't think the kerb drains on Benaroon Dr could fit a 3 year old head."

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - #23

It was called as window reflection forest. Now its blown up more you can see an outline. Easily dismissed by the photographer with the ultra high resolution image. It was right in the middle the heat. I doubt it is William myself. But it sure as hell is to scale. Crabby, it's not to scale. I...

www.websleuths.com

This article says they used cameras down the drains and sewer pipes. Then double checked them.

William Tyrell: how a boy vanished into thin air

THREE-year-old boys don't tend to walk up steep hills.

www.edenmagnet.com.au

 

[Curiouser+Curiouser]

With absolutely no cadaver scent on the property (or in any of the surrounding searches). I would say that abduction is the most likely scenario.

imo

Cadaverine takes some hours to develop in a corpse. If they moved William pretty quickly after death there would be no scent to find.

 

[Curiouser+Curiouser]

The court of public opinion had Lindy Chamberlain convicted for the disappearance of her baby daughter (famous Aussie case). Despite no evidence.

On the other hand, some foster children are murdered by carers eg. Tiahleigh Palmer.

Tiahleigh Palmer: The 12-year-old murdered by her foster father

Australian Tiahleigh Palmer was killed by her foster father who feared his son had got her pregnant.

www.bbc.com

She ‘vanished’ too.