Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #73

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  • #621
A fall from a balcony resulting in death is still an accident.

Doesn't make sense to me that this scenario would be covered up rather than the obvious calling 000.

IMO LE are giving FM an out. ( a narrative for her to grab)
 
  • #622
So when I asked earlier today if one of Moody’s statements were directed at the Police ….I was on the right track …

Post in thread 'Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #73'
Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #73

I also wonder if this statement by Magistrate Moody may affect further hearings and verdicts, in regards to correct legal processes being followed ????

Ms Moody said that during the crime commission hearing the foster mother was never played the police tapes that were used against her in the Local Court.



Looking at all the points you noted, it seems that the magistrate has a problem with the non-disclosure to FM at the Crime Commission hearing. Perhaps saying that it was a set up. Putting her under immense pressure then throwing her into the CC hearing.

The police then produced lying charges that were not about William .... "it was never alleged that the foster mother had been violent towards William or harmed him".

They didn't play the police tapes to FM, but asked her leading questions about them.

I am not sure of the set-up of a Crime Commission hearing, other than it is secretive and witnesses are compelled to attend. If it is anything like a court hearing, one would think that full disclosure (to the accused) is required, that the conduct at the hearing has legal parameters.
 
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  • #623
Looking at all the points you noted, it seems that the magistrate has a problem with the non-disclosure to FM at the Crime Commission hearing. Perhaps saying that it was a set up. Putting her under immense pressure then throwing her into the CC hearing.

The police then produced lying charges that were not about William .... "it was never alleged that the foster mother had been violent towards William or harmed him".

They didn't play the police tapes to FM, but asked her leading questions about them.

I am not sure of the set-up of a Crime Commission hearing, other than it is secretive and witnesses are compelled to attend. If it is anything like a court hearing, one would think that full disclosure (to the accused) is required, that the conduct at the hearing has legal parameters.
JMO -:

Maybe allowing the FFC to hear relevant parts of the recordings should have occurred ... to give her the chance to respond!

...... BECAUSE she was unaware of LE having the surveillance tapes in their possession:-

IF she was actually guilty .... this could be viewed as being acceptable'; (her sobbing and being shocked and upset could be the result of being caught out);

IF she is innocent .... this could be viewed as despicable to do that to her; (resulting in her being shocked, frightened and sobbing about being arrested for something she didn't do).
 
  • #624
JMO -:

Maybe allowing the FFC to hear relevant parts of the recordings should have occurred ... to give her the chance to respond!

...... BECAUSE she was unaware of LE having the surveillance tapes in their possession:-

IF she was actually guilty .... this could be viewed as being acceptable'; (her sobbing and being shocked and upset could be the result of being caught out);

IF she is innocent .... this could be viewed as despicable to do that to her; (resulting in her being shocked, frightened and sobbing about being arrested for something she didn't do).

I think what the magistrate is subtly saying is that the CC hearing was about William, then the police went off on a tangent (and didn't disclose their evidence) to try to catch FM out, and the result was them filing lying charges on a matter unrelated to William. They didn't even suggest there was 'violence or harm' towards William.

Essentially, it wasn't necessary for them to file lying charges. They could have just proceeded with their assault charges unrelated to William, along with their evidence which they would have had to produce to FM prior to trial.

It really was a waste of the court's time. And it went nowhere. All it did was prove that FM was truthful about hitting and kicking another child. And that she may or may not have recalled the wooden spoon incident, at the CC hearing, due to the stress and nature of the police behaviour.

imo
 
  • #625

"she's still going on about it" the woman is heard telling her husband in a later phone call intercepted by police.


If we consider the FFC's position and have sympathy for her like the judge instructs she is "living a night mare life" and under extreme stress.

How is it the FFC is not very sympathetic to her own adopted daughter. If she is heard later saying "she is still going on about it"

I would have thought after such an emotional episode that as a family you would want to move forward so that it never got to this extreme position again.

I feel the comments between her and her husband reveal that they were comfortable with that level of discipling.

I think I have a problem being empathetic to someone who can discount a child misbehaving and the resultant discipline because another child has come to stay and is acting different because of this new situation.

If she is so aware that the older girl is struggling with the arrival of a new foster daughter - she really is dealing with it in a way to inflame and alienate the older girl.

If we are asked to have sympathy for a 57year old FC, and she's sobbing and crying then who will have sympathy for the 10-year-old girl sobbing and pleading, who is 10 by the way, and also caught in this nightmare life. MO
 
  • #626
She still abused a child in her care. It’s abhorrent behavior and shows she can not be trusted with a child to be left in her care.

Moo
 
  • #627
<RSBM>

If we are asked to have sympathy for a 57year old FC, and she's sobbing and crying then who will have sympathy for the 10-year-old girl sobbing and pleading, who is 10 by the way, and also caught in this nightmare life. MO

I don't see this as an either/or situation. The entire family has been living a nightmare.
I think the question is - who doesn't have empathy for William's sister? Everybody does. imo

I think we have pretty much all agreed in prior threads, that their form of management of problematic behaviour is very old school.
 
  • #628
I am questioning if the FC has empathy for LT. MOO
 
  • #629
I am questioning if the FC has empathy for LT. MOO

Sometimes people get caught up in their own pain and difficulties. The way that FM sits with tears pouring down her face makes me think "approaching or at a nervous breakdown". A person can't fake relentless tears .. they can fake crying, but that is usually tearless.

imo
 
  • #630
I don't see this as an either/or situation. The entire family has been living a nightmare.
I think the question is - who doesn't have empathy for William's sister? Everybody does. imo

I think we have pretty much all agreed in prior threads, that their form of management of problematic behaviour is very old school.
As the FFC and MFC have now discovered ..... (because their 'old school' behavioural management was uncovered) .... their actions toward their fostered daughter results in being arrested as a criminal activity. To my understanding, modern Parents are educated about this.

Edited for clarity.
 
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  • #631

"she's still going on about it" the woman is heard telling her husband in a later phone call intercepted by police.


If we consider the FFC's position and have sympathy for her like the judge instructs she is "living a night mare life" and under extreme stress.

How is it the FFC is not very sympathetic to her own adopted daughter. If she is heard later saying "she is still going on about it"

I would have thought after such an emotional episode that as a family you would want to move forward so that it never got to this extreme position again.

I feel the comments between her and her husband reveal that they were comfortable with that level of discipling.

I think I have a problem being empathetic to someone who can discount a child misbehaving and the resultant discipline because another child has come to stay and is acting different because of this new situation.

If she is so aware that the older girl is struggling with the arrival of a new foster daughter - she really is dealing with it in a way to inflame and alienate the older girl.

If we are asked to have sympathy for a 57year old FC, and she's sobbing and crying then who will have sympathy for the 10-year-old girl sobbing and pleading, who is 10 by the way, and also caught in this nightmare life. MO
We have no idea what FM was referencing when she said she was still going on about it.
 
  • #632
We have no idea what FM was referencing when she said she was still going on about it.
Maybe what FM was referencing was revealed during the Hearing .... surely Magistrate Moody would have questioned it,
 
  • #633
We have no idea what FM was referencing when she said she was still going on about it.
From the context, I think it means that later the same day the child is "still" talking about FFC having hit her with a wooden spoon. The pain, the visible injury, the injustice or the stupidity. But it might mean that FFC hit her for raising a forbidden topic, and the attack hasn't had any effect: she's still going on about it.
 
  • #634
A fall from a balcony resulting in death is still an accident.

Doesn't make sense to me that this scenario would be covered up rather than the obvious calling 000.

IMO LE are giving FM an out. ( a narrative for her to grab)
If the police believed his death wasn't accidental and FM had directly caused his death, I doubt they would leave the other foster children in her care, not once the alleged assault occurred. The children were said to be monitored but this would be done remotely and there would still be some risk involved. Imagine if one of those kids had been seriously harmed in a the months preceding their removal, police would have a lot to answer for. All IMO.
 
  • #635
From the context, I think it means that later the same day the child is "still" talking about FFC having hit her with a wooden spoon. The pain, the visible injury, the injustice or the stupidity. But it might mean that FFC hit her for raising a forbidden topic, and the attack hasn't had any effect: she's still going on about it.
There is no context. They have just placed it in the article at a point to make it look like it was part of that incident. We have no idea what it was about, especially without the other side of the conversation
 
  • #636
There is no context. They have just placed it in the article at a point to make it look like it was part of that incident. We have no idea what it was about, especially without the other side of the conversation
I call it context. The sequence of the sentences, then. The logic of 'beforehand . . . then . . . then . . . later'.

The child can be heard threatening to call the police beforehand.

A woman is then heard telling the child to “stand up” three times.

“Where’d you put the wooden spoon?” the court heard a woman on the recording say.

The child then pleads, screams and cries, and is told to turn around and move her hands before smacking sounds are heard.

“She’s still going on about it,” the woman is heard telling her husband in a later phone call intercepted by police.


 
  • #637
Sometimes people get caught up in their own pain and difficulties. The way that FM sits with tears pouring down her face makes me think "approaching or at a nervous breakdown". A person can't fake relentless tears .. they can fake crying, but that is usually tearless.

imo
A breakdown may also happen when we have concealed something and are constantly keeping vigil to prevent it from being discovered, years of anticipation, lies, scrutiny and being held to account can take a toll. Obviously, I don't know what it would feel like, however, over the years I feel sure the question or statement about her being responsible for WT's disappearance has been put to her, does she fall apart even 8 years afterwards when questioned. I found her response to the NSWCC odd, about WT falling off the balcony. No cause I would have found him and I didn't find him?

If anything in the last 8 years, it is the FFFC's odd speech patterns that are consistent, I can't ignore her phrasing. I want to hear her say flat out," I am not responsible for WT's disappearance or death, and I have no knowledge of what has happened, the police are barking up the wrong tree, I am innocent and I hope they keep investigating what happened to him because I really need to know what happened to him that day." IMO
 
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  • #638
I call it context. The sequence of the sentences, then. The logic of 'beforehand . . . then . . . then . . . later'.

The child can be heard threatening to call the police beforehand.

A woman is then heard telling the child to “stand up” three times.

“Where’d you put the wooden spoon?” the court heard a woman on the recording say.

The child then pleads, screams and cries, and is told to turn around and move her hands before smacking sounds are heard.

“She’s still going on about it,” the woman is heard telling her husband in a later phone call intercepted by police.


Yes l read the article. The media chose to put those events in that order. It could very well be what happened but my point being we don’t know for certain what she is referencing
 
  • #639
A breakdown may also happen when we have concealed something and are constantly keeping vigil to prevent it from being discovered, years of anticipation, lies, scrutiny and being held to account can take a toll. Obviously, I don't know what it would feel like, however, over the years I feel sure the question or statement about her being responsible for WT's disappearance has been put to her, does she fall apart even 8 years afterwards when questioned. I found her response to the NSWCC odd, about WT falling off the balcony. No cause I would have found him and I didn't find him?

If anything in the last 8 years, it is the FFFC's odd speech patterns that are consistent, I can't ignore her phrasing. I want to hear her say flat out," I am not responsible for WT's disappearance or death, and I have no knowledge of what has happened, the police are barking up the wrong tree, I am innocent and I hope they keep investigating what happened to him because I really need to know what happened to him that day." IMO
JMO – I don’t know what employment positions the FFC has held, and what self-development training she has had that could involve how to handle being questioned. As per the questioning extracts in the Media Article below, it is interesting to read how she has handled those questions/suggestions: BBM

William Tyrrell: Inside foster mother's secret grilling
“The foster mother was summonsed to appear before the Crime Commission along with William's foster father on November 10 and 11 last year.
She was told by Commissioner Barnes 'we are here to find the body of William Tyrrell'.

When it was suggested the foster mother 'put ... or dumped' William's remains 'near the riding school' at Kendall, she answered back 'do you think I did that?'

Sobbing, she continued: 'No, absolutely not'.

When the Commissioner suggested 'William went around on that verandah and he toppled over and it was nobody's fault what happened', the foster mother replied, 'No, I would have found him. But I didn't find him.'

When Ms Callan said, 'I want to suggest you did find him, you put his body in your mother's car', the foster mother replied, 'I didn't, I didn't'.

Ms Callan then told her: 'They can handle it in a way that does not connect you'.

The foster mother replied: 'I haven't, I didn't. I've not touched him.

'I don't know where he is. You can search with ground penetrating radar.

'You can search the whole house. Dig it up!'

The foster mother then held her hand over her mouth, sobbing.”

MOO – In responding by asking 'do you think I did that?', FFC has bought herself some time which she can use to prepare herself for not answering spontaneously (apart from e.g.: 'I haven't, I didn't. I've not touched him’) ….. she has even been able to think up and make suggestions about what LE could do to search for William’s body!
 
  • #640
JMO – I don’t know what employment positions the FFC has held, and what self-development training she has had that could involve how to handle being questioned. As per the questioning extracts in the Media Article below, it is interesting to read how she has handled those questions/suggestions: BBM

William Tyrrell: Inside foster mother's secret grilling
“The foster mother was summonsed to appear before the Crime Commission along with William's foster father on November 10 and 11 last year.
She was told by Commissioner Barnes 'we are here to find the body of William Tyrrell'.

When it was suggested the foster mother 'put ... or dumped' William's remains 'near the riding school' at Kendall, she answered back 'do you think I did that?'

Sobbing, she continued: 'No, absolutely not'.

When the Commissioner suggested 'William went around on that verandah and he toppled over and it was nobody's fault what happened', the foster mother replied, 'No, I would have found him. But I didn't find him.'

When Ms Callan said, 'I want to suggest you did find him, you put his body in your mother's car', the foster mother replied, 'I didn't, I didn't'.

Ms Callan then told her: 'They can handle it in a way that does not connect you'.

The foster mother replied: 'I haven't, I didn't. I've not touched him.

'I don't know where he is. You can search with ground penetrating radar.

'You can search the whole house. Dig it up!'

The foster mother then held her hand over her mouth, sobbing.”

MOO – In responding by asking 'do you think I did that?', FFC has bought herself some time which she can use to prepare herself for not answering spontaneously (apart from e.g.: 'I haven't, I didn't. I've not touched him’) ….. she has even been able to think up and make suggestions about what LE could do to search for William’s body!
I think she answers like an innocent person. Just my impression.
 
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